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Language and communication: Could we become a postverbal species?

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:03 / 30.03.02
Spinning off from some interesting comments in the "Suits: Style over Substance/Diversity" thread.

Originally posted by Horus lord of force and fire:

What about communication though? Is it self-defeating?...

I believe that we only work against ourselves when we enter into any argument/discussion; in so doing we will ultimately work against others that could be our allies, by creating boundaries, negotiations...

Language can be used for control, but also for subversion — its a tool, a technology and that means it can be used for anything you can think to do with it, so I think in the long run it’s the road to freedom.

Ultimately we must fix ourselves so that we no longer need language. It is always up to us to determine how we respond to things. That’s why I believe that we only work against ourselves when we enter into any argument/discussion; in so doing we will ultimately work against others that could be our allies, by creating boundaries, negotiations, via the base construction of our words. It doesn't get rid of the us/them, male/female, black/white moral divide that our world id based on.

Languages constantly becoming something else, that’s where it’s at. Slipping from a totalitarian determination of meaning to the ambiguities of usage. Resisting stabilising concept-forms in favour of continual variation and irreducible differentiation.

To be truly free, we must communicate non-verbally. That means there is no communication of ideas by words – more by feelings, pulses - the way our cells communicate to one another. By conveying reactions… communicating in emotional aggregates. Octopus and squids communicate emotion by changing colour and shape. This goes further than telepathy: You are your words. There is no more barrier between thought and communication.

If we believe in the spiritual, then we must also believe that the spirit can create an effect on the universe by non-material means. And the most powerful of those come under the headings of Creation and Communication. Especially if combined.


Can we expand on these ideas? If, in theory, we could bypass language and communicate in some puerly non-verbal way, what could fill the role that language plays in the development of human cognition? Could nonverbal communication in humans ever become sufficiently advanced to express sophisticated ideas and concepts?
 
 
SMS
20:12 / 30.03.02
Some things are too complicated to communicate with words. We can say them with a kiss, maybe, or an expression, or maybe we can't say them at all. But the problem with a post-verbal society is that there's no evidence that we've ever really given up on any one kind of communication. We still use the sound of our voices, and the touch of our hands to say what they have always said. But we have added new kinds of communication. Anything that can succeed the spoken/written word will have to be able to convey everything it can and more. This is more likely to evolve over a period of time, so I doubt we'll even notice it's happening, or even notice that it has happened.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:05 / 01.04.02
In what ways is 'nonverbal communication' not a language? All the forms I can think of are still conventionalized sign systems varying from culture to culture and time period to time period.

Rousseau's 'Second Discourse' ("On the Origin of Inequality") and Derrida's reading thereof in 'Of Grammatology' are pretty cool on the ways in which human society & language are intertwined.
 
 
SMS
11:03 / 01.04.02
I don't know that I'd call some of the more intimate forms of communication "conventionalized sign systems," because they seem to communicate on such an instinctive level. If you're willing to say that our biological structure is a matter of convention, then I might reconsider.

But it is still probably a language, and I would consider any form of communication between distinct entities a language. I would probably consider any form of communication a language.

I have sometimes wondered how different our language would be if we could extend childhood and live maybe a thousand years longer. I would bet we could make it considerably more efficient.
 
 
Sax
11:56 / 01.04.02
Communication is a mixture of words and expressed emotions; that's why very often on Barbelith the wrong meaning is taken when words are the only method of communication, especially if someone is trying to convey irony, wryness, humour etc.

I would be sorry to see words go, not least because I make my living from them.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
13:36 / 01.04.02
Words are not very efficient are they? Especially when they're all you've got to go on when reading off a screen and posting on a board.

I guess you could say that all forms of communication are in a way kind of forms of 'language'. On a sliding scale, with sex and dancing at the top, and words towards the bottom.

We need to define why words are 'bad' if we're going with the original idea posed. I'll have a think and come back.
 
 
seamonkey
15:02 / 01.04.02
What about Terence McKenna's ideas on a visual or beheld language? I'm not saying that we'll all be taking ayahusasca/shrooms/DMT in the future (though it would make for an interesting society); but the idea of an actual shared gestalt in an almost telepathic sense where sounds/words actually "sculpt" a mutually shared audio-visual experience. And then there's always the comparison between that and theories/speculations on virtual reality.
 
 
Dao Jones
17:57 / 01.04.02
Communication is, by definition, the transfer of ideas and perspectives between entities (I would say 'non-identical entities', but I fear it's tautologous). Such transfer will always be imperfect - again by definition. Perfect transfer implies that 'both' entities occupy the same location in space-time throughout their lengths, and the same personality, which is, by any humanly comprehensible measure, to be the same thing.

As Thomas Nagel points out in 'Mortal Questions', if you gain access to the sensorium and identity of a bat, you still don't know what it's like to be a bat. You know what it's like to be you looking at or experiencing lots of bat-data... ('Bat-data'...having a slight Adam West/Burt Ward moment...right, done...)

Interesting to ask whether 'we' can become non-verbal. Would non-verbal humans still be humans by current definition? Surely, the species could evolve away from verbal communications - whether, in the absence thereof, we would retain abstract thought, or a form of abstract thought you or I would recognise, is another question. There are humans now who cannot use words and see the world in other ways. We generally think of them as disabled or insane.
 
 
lolita nation
18:48 / 01.04.02
i think i'm going to stick with words for the time being. nonverbal communication is great and all, but if i want to express something like say, "the car that i used to drive always broke down because it leaked oil," i have trouble getting it across with a blush or wink. get caught up around the second embedded clause. but i expect i'm deficient in some way.
 
 
sleazenation
19:19 / 01.04.02
This isn't an either or situation. Humans all use both verbal an NVC (non-verbal communication) guesture and posture, the stress tone intonation of our voices whilst communicating verbally.

Dao Jones intial model of communication is quite a good starting point- imagine communication is a machine- just as no machine is 100% efficient so no form of language is 100% efficient either.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
19:33 / 01.04.02
We evolved from apes, and one day we will be apes once more.
 
 
SMS
01:35 / 02.04.02
[B]no form of language is 100% efficient[/B]

No, not 100%, but the individual neurons in our brain do a hell of a job communicating with each other. Close to 100%, surely.
 
 
Dao Jones
03:48 / 02.04.02
We evolved from apes, and one day we will be apes once more.Good grief.

We're still apes.

There's nothing to guarantee 'we' will remain apes, by our current classification systems.

No, not 100%, but the individual neurons in our brain do a hell of a job communicating with each other. Close to 100%, surely.Language blip. They communicate, in the sense that they pass information, but they do not individually apprehend. Also, the links between neurons are themselves information. Finally, they can be said to be elements of one entity in a way which two humans, however much some people would like to imagine that we're all part of some global megahippy, can not.
 
 
Cat Chant
04:41 / 02.04.02
SMatthewStolte wrote:

If you're willing to say that our biological structure is a matter of convention, then I might reconsider.

More than willing. Eager.

horus said:

I guess you could say that all forms of communication are in a way kind of forms of 'language'. On a sliding scale, with sex and dancing at the top, and words towards the bottom.

I've internalized Derrida too much to go for this, I'm afraid; he takes your sliding scale and rejigs it so that words (specifically writing, as a structure of communication rather than, y'know, yeractual marks on paper) become structurally (quasi-metaphorically?) the basis of all forms of communication. Though obviously 'basis' is a dodgy word to use in this context.

If you're interested, the stuff to read is "Signature-Event-Context", in Margins of Philosophy I think, which will make you fear ever using the word 'communication' again, and Of Grammatology.
 
 
sleazenation
07:40 / 02.04.02
No, not 100%, but the individual neurons in our brain do a hell of a job communicating with each other. Close to 100%, surely.

Really? How's you're memory? Do you experience every memory with *exact* recall as in the Borges short story? of course not. While i'd agree there is comparatively speaking less 'noise' and 'error' in internal communication even they are pretty far from theoretical peak efficiency.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
10:02 / 02.04.02
In any case, individual neurons deal only in binary states, on/off, yes/no (i think), which is unambiguous but not inherently meaningful. I think it comes down to the assumptions made, interpretations. Not how you communicate, but what.

Ferinstance, if I state that I'm going to the bog ('head' will do for non-Brits), I assume I don't need to qualify 'bog' as slang. But I may very well leave someone with the impression that I'm off to wallow in peat. It's just not the sort of thing I'm likely to do.

This kind of ambiguity can exist whenever a signal does not include every bit of background and context needed to force the correct interpretation. And I'd rather not spend three hours ordering lunch, just to guarantee my order cannot possibly be misunderstood.

If I answer "yes", do I agree or covering for the fact that I've not been listening?
 
 
gozer the destructor
13:57 / 02.04.02
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Lacan, one of his ideas is that we are taught a language (a set of accoustic concepts) that wasn't designed for us and so does not reflect entirely what we mean and as a result we a perpetually in a state of being misunderstood.

"Next time someone asks you to say it in your own words say, 'flqip wetydbs diuethgf" - George Carlin
 
 
sleazenation
14:55 / 02.04.02
Actually its more suprizing that Semiotics and particularly the work of Saussure has not thus far been mentioned, nor the early works of Claude Levi-Strauss both of which provide helpful models for the understanding of both the formation of language and how it works.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:51 / 04.04.02
Er... could we assume that maybe not everyone's read as much Derrida, Saussure, or Chomsky as they should have? (I'll take make-up classes over the summer, I promise.)
 
 
gozer the destructor
13:59 / 04.04.02
Does anybody have any theories regarding music, I ask because I remeber a conversation I was having a while back with someone and I said that music is universal as a language, he disagreed refering to 'Tibetan Love Chants' if I remember correctly that were really discordant and frightening. ALSO how about the experiments that Stockhausen/Throbbing Gristle and similiar musicians have done by controling the feelings of the audience (I suppose this leads onto the improvising styles as well)

My only experience as a musician has been when my band has made an entire audience feel hate and told us to get the f**k out the club.

Music as non-verbal communication-whatya think?
 
 
sleazenation
14:39 / 04.04.02
Hmmm music may not be verbal, but i think it definitely has a grammar and an alphabet...
 
 
The Monkey
15:09 / 04.04.02
Sign language anyone? ASL, the specialized finger-pressing SL for the deaf-and-blind...

I must admit, I fail to see how language binds us in a fashion that necessitates being set "free," nor how a change in communication methods would necessarily be a step up. From this perspective, any change can be framed as an ascent - it's better because it's not what we have now...because it's an empty set we can throw hopes into. The history of universal language projects, such as Esperanto, should tell us something here. in the abstract, any claim can be made about the greater utility (or fill in your ideal here) of a language form that isn't verbal, precisely because it exists only as a Platonic form, a white surface upon which anything can be projected.

But consider this: let us say that humanity transitions to a new method of communication - neural interface through specialized pathways of neurons that can link across the epidermal surface between individuals, exchange of long-protein chains, a set of muscular queues that generate nuanced facial and bodily expressions, spiritual technology we don't have words for yet. Regardless of the overall "shape" of the language, it would likely require some sort of basic elements, an analogue to a dictionary, perhaps to a phonetic alphabet, to communicate complex meaning. A gesture, a protein or amino chain, an epidermal color transition, would necessarily have to possess meaning across social consensus - beyond the individual - to have worth. Think of kanji, and in particular xiaoshu (personalized, artistic) style brushwork - while beautiful and individually expressive, a xiaoshu still maintains a bare minimum of necessary components to be recognized as a particular ideogram.

So would a new language, even if nonverbal, transition towards hyperspecificity - each word having one very precise meaning, with little contextual overlap - or towards greater mechanical efficiency - with the specificity of meaning indicated by series of prefixes, prepositions, suffixes, and an organize root and etymological structure?

(Verbal) Words are shaped by many layers of context: who they are said to, and what past events lies between you and that person/those persons that given that word/words a particular meaning, and in what tone, what register, volume, etc., not to mention the non-auditory signals that can accompany an uttered word and twist its meaning. Any replacement form of language would likely possess a system of equivalent codification, or meaning would be lost at greater inefficiency than in a sonic system. Neurologically, or what ever the equivalent would be, we would possess some sort of structure [Chomskyian deep structure analogue], probably evolved from the linguistic regions of the brain, that carried the cipher booklet for this new language form.
 
 
lolita nation
19:37 / 04.04.02
Horus:
I guess you could say that all forms of communication are in a way kind of forms of 'language'. On a sliding scale, with sex and dancing at the top, and words towards the bottom.


you know that's funny - someone else said the exact same thing in flyboy's language thread last month, and that lanugage should be abolished... forget who it was, but i remember the 'sex and dancing' bit.
 
  
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