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Suits: Style over Substance/Diversity

 
 
Cat Chant
07:04 / 28.03.02
Thinking about:

Cherry's "Ladies & Gents" thread
Tom's "Barbelith Bill of Rights" thread
the Barbefeud! thread of long ago
my own vague wonderings about criticism/self-criticism sessions...

I was rereading the 'Bill of Rights' thread and noticing that a lot of the policy discussions have been about how, although we must respect every poster's opinions, once that poster embarks on personal abuse hir rights are forfeit.

Obviously a lot of urgent discussion has been going on lately about inclusion and exclusion in barbelith, but the way it's centered on this division between substance/style has hindered, for me, the opening up of a space in which to discuss what to do about animosities and disagreements that occur within the board. What I mean is that there seems to be some sort of ill-defined consensus around the rules of "intelligent/ respectful discussion", which abstracts the "ideas" or opinions put forward by a suit from that suit's "personality", etc. This seems to me to be problematic in a textual space, in which opinions crystallize forth out of the fluidity of style.

Bugger, I'm not expressing this very well. But I thought it was interesting to put together the very abstract attempts at a 'bill of rights' in Tom's thread focussing on 'opinions' with the way in which passions almost immediately began to run high in Cherry's thread focussing on 'style'.

Another place this is coming from is that I wonder sometimes how my posting style comes across (not the humourless feminist element, I totally get that) but everyone is usually too busy respecting my opinions and keeping the argument away from ad hominem attacks to say "Jesus, Deva, you are an elitist/patronizing/wilfully obscure/[something I can't even predict] poster". Most of the time I'm grateful for that, because most of the time I'm far too fragile to be able to cope with robust criticism (ie, please can we not turn this thread into a list of all the stuff I get wrong!), but sometimes I wonder whether it could be useful.

A few disjointed questions:

At what point does an attempt to point out to a suit that hir style is unhelpful or antagonizing or annoying become 'personal abuse'?

When, if ever, is it a good idea to constructively criticize a suit's posting style, and on what grounds?

Is there a way to deal with the personal dislikes and animosities that will inevitably arise within a board without (a) being bitchy or hurtful (b) using the 'ignore' button or (c) slamming someone's opinions as cover for just being really pissed off with their style?
 
 
Cat Chant
07:09 / 28.03.02
PS: on a different level of style-over-substance, I like the new board. I think it makes me look more intelligent.
 
 
Ierne
12:51 / 28.03.02
...the way it's centered on this division between substance/style has hindered, for me, the opening up of a space in which to discuss what to do about animosities and disagreements that occur within the board. – Deva

I'm not sure that substance and style should be separated and pitted against each other. Each is essential for effective communication between people.

That being said, I think style without substance is a waste of time. People who insist on posting long-winded, highly-stylized commentary that at best says absolutely nothing and at worst snipes at other posters are not engaging in "intelligent/ respectful discussion" (Deva's quotes) but wasting time and bandwidth. And yes, they should be taken to task for it.

If you have something to say, style will help you get it across as effectively as possible to a diverse range of people. If you have nothing to say, style may help you get over and fake it...for a while, anyway. Until people figure out that you're full of shit.
 
 
Utopia
02:26 / 29.03.02
At what point does an attempt to point out to a suit that hir style is unhelpful or antagonizing or annoying become 'personal abuse'?

when it's written in an unintelligent style/adheres to playground politics/puts the stylized person on the spot. if anybody has a problem with anybody else's posts/remarks over a long period of time, they should either click 'ignore' or pm the person and have a one-on-one discussion. someone may not realize they/their suit is being an ass and publicly 'calling someone out' solves nothing.

and the whole suit style thing can be a bit ridiculous, if not kept in check. hell, i can make myself 'scumbag homophobe nazi rapist' and claim that anything i say is ok, cuz i'm just acting the part. admit it or not, but your suit is a reflection of your self.

lerne: we seem to be following each other around lately, don't we?
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
08:43 / 29.03.02
Be honest mate - you're stalking the poor girl aren't you? (smilie here)

It's a fair old question - How does one differentiate between a post posted to cause chaos and one posted which didn't mean to cause offence but was perceived that way?

Got to say I disagree wholeheartedly with you about the 'all style, and no substance is no good' comment Irene. Lots of people slagged off LOTR characterisation because they didn't see any depth in the memebers of the fellowship - what they didn't appreciate, IMHO, was that the characters were very simple and one-way orientated because the film was set in very simple times and revolved around a very simple concept. In a similar same way intelligence could be interpreted on this kind of scale - one persons thicko is another persons Bamba Gascoigne - and there are lots of differing opinions about what counts as intelligent thought - for instance, a person who can't string three sentences together and has no personal aspirations to do so could well be the next Buddha - which is kind of what Grant Morrison was putting across with Jack Frost in the Invisibles, if you've ever read it. (And if you haven't you should be) What I mean Irene, is that somebody lacking substance has as much right to post on the board as someone who does have the intellectual know-how to back up their comments - what's on the surface is enough for some people, and I don't think you should take a person to task for perceiving them as lacking in the necessary thought processes that justify what they say. Sometimes feeling is enough.

Maybe Tom could allow each suit to write a quick twenty word description about their suit that describes the suits 'character' and intentions, which could go in their profile?
 
 
sleazenation
09:07 / 29.03.02
Of course this could easily come back to the problem of self awareness. Not everyone has the same level of style and fictionality about them... is everyone able to write a handy 20 word description of their personality? how accurate will it be?
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
09:17 / 29.03.02
Horus: "An ancient God of destruction and change. Fuck with me and you get burnt. Are we clear? ARE WE CLEAR?"

Something like that.

I guess your would be something like:

"........"
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
09:32 / 29.03.02
Shit sorry - I thought you were expressionless!!!
 
 
w1rebaby
11:30 / 29.03.02
I don't think you should take a person to task for perceiving them as lacking in the necessary thought processes that justify what they say. Sometimes feeling is enough.

Okay, not being able to justify things properly is not a cause for insults - we all make mistakes - but if you make an assertion beyond a statement of your own emotion you have to be able to at least try to back it up if challenged. Someone who feels they don't have to do this is just being irritating. Personally, I'm here to discuss and you can't discuss things with people like that.

Sometimes feeling is not enough. If someone wants to express their feelings unchallenged, let them keep it to some sort of free expression area.

I agree with Utopia that the idea of giving someone leeway because "it's just my suit, I don't really think that" is nonsense. Here, you are your suit. You don't like how people react to you? Tough, change yourself or live with it, just like with your "real world" self.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
11:55 / 29.03.02
Yeah fair enough, but I think that the point is whether your suit is a true reflection of yourself or not. For instance, what if a suit is being used to explore alternative sides of your personality? Trying on a different persona to 'see how it fits' so to speak.

You could venture that the board might act as a place where you can experiment with your secret side, a place where you can tackle your demons head-on, presenting them for feedback from other normal or outrageous/'darkside' suits. Imagine: A board where we can present ourselves honestly to an unthreatening, online world and not suffer the slings and arrows of a real-life roasting, or at least engage mentally without needing to tackle the modus operandi of a real-life physical environment. It's a cutting edge idea, and very Reichian.

Which reminds me, there's also the whole ego-armour angle to consider: Using the board to break down your own defences/character armour/ego/personality and then regroup your thoughts in building a new self-elaboration, continuing in this cycle and 'bettering' yourself all the while. Evolution in practice, learning to deal with situations that you would rarely get involved with in real life, and seeing the world through new eyes.
 
 
Ierne
12:19 / 29.03.02
In a similar same way intelligence could be interpreted on this kind of scale - one persons thicko is another persons Bamba Gascoigne - and there are lots of differing opinions about what counts as intelligent thought... – Horus lord of force and fire

I wasn't talking about intelligence, or indeed education level, for that matter. One doesn't have to be a college graduate to make a point at Barbelith!

However, I think most people who post to this bulletin board do so in order to communicate with other people. In order to do that one has to express one's thoughts, experiences and opinions as effectively as one can. If people aren't quite sure what one means, they will request clarification – not because they think the poster is lacking in intelligence, but because they're interested in what the poster has to say.

If someone refuses to clarify because "others are too stupid to understand me" or "this is my style and fuck you if you don't like it," well... that doesn't facilitate communication.

You could venture that the board might act as a place where you can experiment with your secret side, a place where you can tackle your demons head-on, presenting them for feedback from other normal or outrageous/'darkside' suits. – Horus

Why should the rest of us be saddled with dealing with someone's "demons?" One should take responsibility for one's own psychological issues and not dump them on other people.

Imagine: A board where we can present ourselves honestly to an unthreatening, online world and not suffer the slings and arrows of a real-life roasting, or at least engage mentally without needing to tackle the modus operandi of a real-life physical environment. It's a cutting edge idea, and very Reichian. – Horus

This avoids the fact that when one posts to a bulletin board such as Barbelith one is dealing with real-life people and real-life issues.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
12:43 / 29.03.02
Well I always dug fiction when I was a kid and even now I tend to shy away from the reference books and more towards the latest fantasy or sci-fi titles. What about communication though? Is it self-defeating? Animals don't need it.

For example, I could go back and re-read your last reply, but I can't see the point. I read it once already. This might be really arrogant of me, but I did read your last post Irene and I took it all in, and I really don't see the point in reading through it again to pick out points you make and agree/disagree/attempt to elaborate on them. I'm more an impulsive, say the first thing that comes to mind kind of guy, whether it's relevant or not. Hence the above disjointed reply.

That's a surface reading/response in my book - putting the subconscious straight on the page. not even attempting to think in-depth about what was said and 'how' I could form my reply. I don't hate discussions, but I think it's pointless to rehash stagnant points or work on over-analysis/deep post-structual readings 'cause I think it's better to bounce off a persons words and hit them with your own in a quick way - tis faster. Am I making sense? In some ways it's better to do this cause you don't tangle your comments up with too much 'pointless' thinking, and you prevent rehashing old ways of thinking/discussing that arguably contribute to the way things are; and the way things are is often not the way we want things to be. Imagine, we all know what we'd like the world to be like: more honest, and the way to get your honest thoughts out there is to just get them OUT THERE, sharpish-like, without tangling them up in attempts to create the 'illusion' of an identity - this is why I half-disagreee with your comment that the board needs to facilitate real-life issues - it could also be about experimenting with new interpretations and repressed feelings.

What do you think?
 
 
Ierne
14:08 / 29.03.02
I think that a certain respect for the work that other people put into the board and the ability to listen to arguments and respond to them intelligently are PRECISELY the criteria that Barbelith should use when thinking about who should post on the board. – Tom Coates

I agree with him.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:13 / 29.03.02
Horus: what you are advocating is little more than instinctive emotional reactions to others coupled with a lack of responsibility for anything said. That sounds awfully like a shouting match or mindless argument to me. If you feel that this is worthwhile, then go ahead. Personally, I want to communicate with others, I want to engage and consider other people's ideas.

Its personal taste of course, but I find those that can't be bothered to carefully read posts, who think communication is self defeating, who aspire to interact as animals and who dismiss thought as pointless to be a bit dull.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
15:42 / 29.03.02
It doesn't have to be a shouting match though!

Language can be used for control, but also for subversion — its a tool, a technology and that means it can be used for anything you can think to do with it, so I think in the long run it’s the road to freedom.

Ultimately we must fix ourselves so that we no longer need language. It is always up to us to determine how we respond to things. That’s why I believe that we only work against ourselves when we enter into any argument/discussion; in so doing we will ultimately work against others that could be our allies, by creating boundaries, negotiations, via the base construction of our words. It doesn't get rid of the us/them, male/female, black/white moral divide that our world id based on.

Languages constantly becoming something else, that’s where it’s at. Slipping from a totalitarian determination of meaning to the ambiguities of usage. Resisting stabilising concept-forms in favour of continual variation and irreducible differentiation.

To be truly free, we must communicate non-verbally. That means there is no communication of ideas by words – more by feelings, pulses - the way our cells communicate to one another. By conveying reactions… communicating in emotional aggregates. Octopus and squids communicate emotion by changing colour and shape. This goes further than telepathy: You are your words. There is no more barrier between thought and communication.

If we believe in the spiritual, then we must also believe that the spirit can create an effect on the universe by non-material means. And the most powerful of those come under the headings of Creation and Communication. Especially if combined.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
15:46 / 29.03.02
Sorry if that reads rather incoherently.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:30 / 29.03.02
Ultimately we must fix ourselves so that we no longer need language...

...To be truly free, we must communicate non-verbally...


That's all very well but this is an entirely verbal medium. How is the intermediate stage between verbal and non-verbal communication going to be handled? It's just going to look like incoherence, surely?

I can see all the points about language being a barrier etc, but I don't think it's a good idea to write off something as deep-rooted in the human brain. Even if we move beyond verbal expression I suspect we will still be using language.
 
 
Utopia
19:46 / 29.03.02
raises eyebrow...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:15 / 30.03.02
Without wishing to start any kind of confrontation (especially not with kickass Egyptian gods ), I have to take issue with some of the points that Horus raises.

You could venture that the board might act as a place where you can experiment with your secret side, a place where you can tackle your demons head-on, presenting them for feedback from other normal or outrageous/'darkside' suits.

Well, yee-ee-es, sort of. The problem is that this approach presupposes that all the other people on the board have limitless reserves of energy and resource to deal with said demons. It assumes that their lives are fesivals of peace and acceptance, untrammelled by fear or pain, unafflicted by the predjudices of others; pages from a left-wing colour-supplement. Such is not the case. Whilst adopting a Devil's Advocate suit could be a valid way of opening up debate, it would have to be done with great care and skill- which isn't really what's being advocated here.

Not sure what's meant by "without needing to tackle the modus operandi of a real-life environment". Free from assumptions based on the physical self? Or just absolved of the need for basic courtesy and respect?


there's also the whole ego-armour angle to consider: Using the board to break down your own defences/character armour/ego/personality and then regroup your thoughts in building a new self-elaboration, continuing in this cycle and 'bettering' yourself all the while.

Yes, that's a very good point (and something I've been exploring myself) but I don't see how we're going to do that without good communication, and sometimes good communication means reading a post and going away to cogitate for a while so that you can better respond to the poster's ideas.


Evolution in practice, learning to deal with situations that you would rarely get involved with in real life, and seeing the world through new eyes.

What sort of situations? I'm curious; can you offer an example?


What about communication though? Is it self-defeating? Animals don't need it.

Wrong, as it goes. Animals have all manner of communications systems: mating rituals, pheremone trails, the bee's waggle-dance, the cephalopod's skin which shifs colour with its mood. Communication in humans is necessary for all manner of things, including the development of cognition.

Whilst it is important to avoid going over the same stale ideas time and again (hearing you loud and clear on that one!), I'm not sure your off-the-top-of-the-head approach is the best way to do this. If you don't examine the points that have been made, how can you avoid repetition?


I believe that we only work against ourselves when we enter into any argument/discussion; in so doing we will ultimately work against others that could be our allies, by creating boundaries, negotiations

This is only true if we regard all discussion as a war of words. When I enter into a discussion I'm often more interested in finding out why a person thinks the way they do than in automatically assuming that I'm right, they're wrong, and it's my job to put them straight. (I exclude from this the correction of factual errors. I'm perfectly happy for people to fill in the gaps in my knowledge and I think it's patronising not to do the same for others.)

To be truly free, we must communicate non-verbally... If we believe in the spiritual, then we must also believe that the spirit can create an effect on the universe by non-material means. And the most powerful of those come under the headings of Creation and Communication. Especially if combined.

Well, maybe, but... on a bullietin board? What should we do, post entirely in emoticons?

So, to recap: I think I understand where you're coming from with this, but I'm not sure you've thought your ideas through as regards exploring them here on the board. You're not advocating the abandonment of communication but a shift towards the non-verbal, maybe even the telepathic. All well and good, but not really practicable in a purely verbal medium such as this one.

(Oh, and BTW: Oi! My man Dane might not have been much of a talker, but he'd read Kropotkin. So much for "can't string three sentences together", eh? )
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:19 / 30.03.02
(Sorry, Deva! I've horribly rotted you thread here. I'm going to beetle off and start a language-cognition-postverbal-communication one somewhere else.)

Anyhow, back on topic: "In what ways does a suit's style modify the way in which hir opinions are received?"
 
 
Cat Chant
14:54 / 31.03.02
Nonono Mordant, you have not threadrotted at all: part of what I'm interested in is the way in which most of the discussion about what is acceptable/desirable in postings on this board has relied on an unspoken severance between "ideas/opinions" and emotions, so I'm pleased to see yr discussion with Horus about how emotional/impulsive posting may or may not work.

I'm feeling I'm being really unclear on what I meant when I started this thread. I keep having little moments when I see what I mean, but then I'm never near a computer & can't write it down. It's something to do with - well, with what gets excluded when one assumes the function of a bulletin board is to exchange pure, cerebral "opinions" and "ideas" and "information" with one another. Thinking about Cherry's thread - is this a gendered assumption? What place do desire and sexuality have in the board? Does it mean that certain suits' styles will be favoured over others because they are perceived as playing by the "correct" rules - their arguments are, for example, dispassionate and backed-up-by-scientific-research rather than by the dreams of psychic friends? Is this a good thing? When is it a good thing? When is it a bad thing?

Is this discussion even worth having, given that we all just rub along fine? I don't want to be laying down a template for barbestyles, I'm interested in inventing tactics which might allow, say, a butch bottom haiku and a femme top scientific treatise to interact in discussion and produce a new form of politics.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:55 / 31.03.02
So the aim is not to do without language, but to multiply its styles and to find ways of players of different language games to create huge, polyphonous, cacophonous, callipygous symphonies...
 
 
Cat Chant
14:58 / 31.03.02
And when I say stuff like "what is the place of desire & sexuality in the board", I mean in terms of suits bumping textual surfaces and creating linguistic crackles. Not, like, "should we have a dating agency so the people behind the suits can have sex with each other".

(Hmmm. 3 posts in 10 minutes. I spot a flaw in this new not-being-able-to-edit-posts policy.)
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
22:23 / 31.03.02
Sex?

Ooh-err!
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
23:26 / 31.03.02
“I'm interested in exploring the idea that all modes of rhetoric are basically violent. I didn't want to explore it theoretically, so I put the idea in practice by trying to respond at all times with as much hostility as possible. There were a number of problems with that approach; mostly, I just couldn't sustain the hostility and kept posting things that were kind of, well, nice. I'm really, really sorry to anyone who was offended by anything I said, but I still think it had value as an experiment, at least for me personally. I was more or less satisfied that the rhetoric of "reason" used against me was no less exclusionary than my "irrational hostility" was supposed to be. Or to put it another way, as fond as I am of all of you, we're all complete pricks when it comes down to it”

Posted by Dead Pirate Crunchy

“A fiction suit isn't designed to help you AVOID responsibility”

Posted by Tom

But in the real world a 'fiction' suit does just that – you can get away with saying anything on the internet, with no fear of repercussion.

I’d say that this has great potential. It’s got a lot to do with the classic morality debate – if you believe that words create the divide that exists in all our day to day interactions – this idea that words only complicate things, and create and maintain a fundamental division in the world – that being the one of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ (why don’t animals have/need this confusion?) then it leads you to the idea that when words do eventually exhaust themselves out, we will be left with a more permissible, less judgmental and ‘frustrated’ society.

And before I go, I present the insane ramblings of Haus: (edited to remove spelling mistakes and make easier to understand)

“Actually, I was talking about this with Flyboy last night while thinking about Habermas, and how he thinks communication functions. As my (limited) understanding goes, actual communication involves the sharing and examination of positions and statements which are both susceptible to criticism (ie can be unpacked) and able to respond to criticism (ie does not fold at the first response). Then, because not everything can be dialogic, or we would all starve, (for example: We must 'do' physical things to survive: Eat, Work, etc) "relief systems" take the strain by creating the context for basically self-contained statements or structures (language facilitating work). So, capitalism as relief system allows me to accumulate money (relief system), and use it in the exchange for goods or services at a prearranged rate of exchange (relief system).

How does this fit in? Well, this I haven't quite worked out yet. I think my point was that the Head Shop in particular is founded on the principles of communication in a Habermas sense, and breaks down when relief systems promoting the irreducibility of certain standpoints. (Like lawyers in court: This is my objective/standpoint. What is yours?) In a sense, the "how evil is kinkyness" thread was quite useful in that, as ideas on sexuality were revealed to be in many cases either/or not able to endure criticism, (depending on personal opinions) with the result that the thread became a mass of nonsense and non sequitur. (people didn't take the topic seriously) The Body Fictive might be interesting to read in the same way, looking at the posts first as units of communication, then as instantiations of a relief system - processes whereby communication can be forestalled aborted or elided.”
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:01 / 01.04.02
I acknowledge freely and humbly that Habermas' theories of communication are endlessly less useful than the lessons taught by Gandalf the Grey....
 
  
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