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Catholics vs. Gays in Prom Squabble

 
  

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pointless and uncalled for
15:47 / 27.03.02
QUOTE

A meeting of the Catholic school board came to an abrupt end Monday night when instead of discussing the issue of a high-school student’s bid to take his gay partner to his prom, the trustees walked out.

Marc Hall, 17, learned last week he’d been barred from attending Monsignor John Pereyma Catholic Secondary School’s annual event this year because his date was a man.

About 75 people attended the Durham Region session on Monday. The crowd jeered when the trustees refused to hear arguments about Hall’s exclusion.

The snubbing was the last straw. “I'm taking legal action now,” the Grade 12 student said. Hall will consult a lawyer about launching a human rights complaint against the board. “I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I'm trying to fight this for everyone.”

After the meeting, board chair Mary Ann Martin said an issue must be put on the agenda seven days before a meeting in order to be heard. But it won’t be on the next meeting’s schedule either, she said. “We do not accept the lifestyle of a homosexual.”

--------------------------------------

From Local News Sources.

I'm somewhat at odds on this situation.

On one hand there is the human rights issue. I firmly support a persons right to exercise a reasonable lifestyle (for those of you about to attack me on the use of the word reasonable, I'm implying a non harmful lifestyle) without impingement.
On the other had I respect a person's right to practice religion (which is of itself a form of lifestyle)

In the first instance Mr. Hall should be allowed to take his partner to the prom.

In the second instance The Catholic School Board is running with a religious mandate and the edicts of that religion exclude tolerance for the practice of homosexuality (love the sinner, hate the sin)

Were it a non-religious school board then the case would be far more clear cut for me but the the introduction of religion into the equation does change things somewhat.

What are you opinions on this situation?
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:23 / 27.03.02
for fucks sake. hes not screwing his partner at the prom - if it was a matter of what went on in the bedroom than no one would be allowed to attend prom, as most kids - catholic school or not - are fucking like bunnies anyway. which in itself is against any "good catholic"s morals.

and who says they are doing anything sexual, anywhere, anyway? is there a rule against going with friends? I seem to remember lots of kids going with their (same sex) friends at my proms - I didnt go to a catholic high school, but I cant see how thats could possibly be a valid rule. which brings us back to the first question - when does the bedroom come into play?

I hope he sues the shit out of them
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:26 / 27.03.02
I'm kinda against ALL faith schools on general principles, but in this case I do tend towards the school slightly, as the guy must have known what to expect. However, having said that, the school is handling this spectacularly badly, the fact that they appear completely unwilling to discuss the issue is very bad. If they entered into a dialogue with him, and at the end said 'no' I'd have more respect.

And as for the guy wanting to sue them, I'm sure diverting money away from teaching other kids in order to pay fees for the school to defend itself and possibly pay damages if he were to win will be seen as a victory for common sense over bigotry the world over.
 
 
Sleeperservice
16:34 / 27.03.02
In an ideal world this wouldn't be a problem. Obviously this isn't the case however. Mark Hall certainly has more guts than I had at his age. The catholics are wrong, he is right.

/me shrugs

What is there to be at odds about?

I have to admit I have a very dim view of organised religion in general and in particular I find the brainwashing of children with religion sick. Sure you can have religious freedom. When you reach maturity (at whatever age society deems that to happen...another discussion).
 
 
Sleeperservice
16:42 / 27.03.02
LSE said;

"...but in this case I do tend towards the school slightly, as the guy must have known what to expect. However, having said that, the school is handling this spectacularly badly,..."

I'm sorry? He must have known what to expect? Well if you meant that he was forcing the bigots hand to show their true colours, then yes. But on first reading it sounds like you think he should keep quite and not say anything.
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:52 / 27.03.02
I dont know about elsewhere, but here in the states if hes in catholic school his parents are most likely paying a fair amount of cash to have him there. they probably arent really struggling to make ends meet

and if Im wrong - if he does sue and win, they can always have an overpriced fund raiser. I really cant feel too terribly sorry for them if he does
 
 
alas
20:09 / 27.03.02
as to the "he should have known what to expect"--he's 18 years old, remember, and probably has had very little say as to where he was going to school

The thing that gets me is these kinds of stories during pedophilia scandal going on in the US Catholic churches, at the moment. There the church closes ranks, and refuses to deal with its own potentially criminal, "damnable" behavior. And all of it because it's got such skewed notions of human sexual life.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:46 / 27.03.02
He is gutsy, I knew a lot of gay people at school who didn't even consider taking same sex partners to the prom. I'm surprised that everyone knows that he's gay never mind that he wants to take his boyfriend with him. Maybe it's the area I live in but when I hear stories like this it never fails to surprise me how many people seem to know the most trivial things about other people's lives. Not that I'm trying to trivialise an individual's sexuality- it's just odd that it's such a big thing in that school. How the hell do the trustee's know he's gay and taking a partner, did he ask them if it was OK or is the school just gossip central?
 
 
Ganesh
15:00 / 28.03.02
This points up the tangled mess of nebulous contradiction around the issue of what does and doesn't constitute a "homosexual lifestyle" and how, exactly, one goes about "promoting" homosexuality.

Even if one takes the supposedly Bigot-Lite "love the sinner, hate the sin" line, what's the "sin" here?
 
 
bitchiekittie
15:11 / 28.03.02
"Even if one takes the supposedly Bigot-Lite "love the sinner, hate the sin" line, what's the "sin" here?"

exactly - hes not engaging in sexual behavior at the dance itself. if its a matter of what he does in private, well, A) thats assuming that hes engaging in sexual behavior at all, which is an unfair assumption to make and consequently discipline someone for and if you bother to argue that that is an acceptable assumption to make than it carries on to: B) half of the other kids who will be there are most likely fucking outside of marriage, which is considered a sin.

so why on earth are they - any of those kids - allowed to attend prom? are they going to begin giving tests to find out whos "pure" enough?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:24 / 28.03.02
It's certainly a difficult issue.

In terms of homosexual lifestyle there would be irrevocable core elements. Primarily I would say that this would include an attraction between your self and a member of the same sex. (The dictionaries quote this as a sexual attraction but I'm wary of that definition, it has far too many pitfalls.) Beyond that I'm not willing to set definites without significant consultation on the matter.

Promoting homosexuality - [cockney scalper]Get your tickets here, just five bucks entry, c'mon ladies and gentlemen, it's worth every penny[/cockney scalper] Sorry, I'm not sure I can define that really.

One of the issues that irks me here to a minor degree is that essentially an extension of a the church is being lambasted for sticking to their principals and beliefs. Not only that but their main detractors are groups that openly promote respect and tolerance for alternative lifestyles. Christianity and religion in general are lifestyles. Are these to be an exception that proves the rule?

In the issue of sin, as far as I understand it, this often depends on the actual faction of christianity that you approach. For some it's just the sexual activity, for others (i.e. the catholic orthodoxy) it's the attraction, mentality, etc. before anyone tries, I am not willing to engage in a sinful by design debate at the moment. I simply do now know enough.

Essentially, at the end of the day I support the side of the guy on a human rights issue but I feel that I should be supporting the school and school board for the freedom of religion and the practices thereof.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:40 / 28.03.02
I used to experience an almost constant at least low level of frustration back when I was a Catholic School Girl, because there were so many things we were taught/told to obey/etc. that I totally disagreed with but, due to the fact that it was a private, religious school that my parents were paying for me to attend, I felt like I had very little recourse in terms of raising objections - I mean, the whole point seemed to be they could teach/enforce things outside the "secular" system. (Please forgive my passivity - I was a preteen at the time.)

So, on the one hand, well, we know the official line of the Catholic church is that homosexuality is a sin, and in this regard well you can pretty much see why at a Catholic school there would be no discussion on the matter.

But alas you bring up an interesting point in regards to the pedophilia scandal. I've been a bit out of the loop on this one and was catching up on some of it this morning. I read that the U.S. Association of Catholic Bishops or whatever they're called (as an ex-catholic I really should know) is attempting to blame the whole pedophilia scandal on the "loosening of morals in the modern world." A... haahaha - whatever. %Couldn't have anything at all to do with the Catholic church's rather obsessively repressive attitude towards sex and sexuality.% But, and I think this is a subjective viewpoint, I don't know how anyone could decide to be celibate for the rest of their lives without, at the very least, having some "issues" with sex.
 
 
alas
16:42 / 28.03.02
One of the issues that irks me here to a minor degree is that essentially an extension of a the church is being lambasted for sticking to their principals and beliefs. Not only that but their main detractors are groups that openly promote respect and tolerance for alternative lifestyles. Christianity and religion in general are lifestyles. Are these to be an exception that proves the rule?

The problem--and the critique I'm about to write also applies to my own quickly written post, above!--the Catholic church is not a monolith; no social institution is, especially one as big as the worldwide Roman Catholic Church. There are not just many "ex-catholics" in the world who disagree with the decisions made by the "top brass" in the church, but people who are struggling to remain Catholic AND glbt or pro-glbt rights. See, for instance, Dignity USA's website, especially their faqs, which deal, in a nutshell form with the ways that Christianity and even Catholicism is an organic, evolving changing entity--a domain in which competing interests are constantly seeking some dominance.

I'm not someone who believes "all lifestyles should be tolerated." For one thing, I hate the word "lifestyle." I believe that bigoted groups should be actively resisted and forced to change. We have this idea that lack of power=innocence=good. I'm pretty sure that's a foolish equation.

Here's a woman I like--Ladelle McWhorter, a Foucault scholar:

"Opposition . . . involves a great deal more tha resistance. Resistance is merely negative, a no to domination. Opposition involves something positive, a departure from dominating networks. It involves the production of a different sort of self and a different sort of community--selves and communities not bound by the dictates of sexual identification. But, much as we might like to stop there with the affirmation of creativity, this project involves even more than our most creative work. Hard as it is just to begin to build a culture and a sense of self counter to what the dominant society seeks to impose, that emerging sense of self will not be enough--because they will not be allowed to flourish. Counterattack against sexual regimes of power is--inevitably and obviously--attack. It entails more and less violent assault on sexual practices and institutions and, yes, even the people who believe their lives depend on them--institutions like compulsory heterosexuality, the modern oedipal family, enforced sex roles and gender identification, and sex discrimination of all kinds. Those institutions and people will fight us, and the fire power is mainly on their side. We must not pretend that they do not have to be fought. And, indeed, if we succeed in destroying or dismantling or even seriously altering the institutions that they hold dear, their injuries will be very real. Counterattack can never be innocent. . . . opposition entails exercising power over other people to force them to allow us to do our self-transformative work. If we are going to undertake seriously to oppose the regimes that oppress us, we have to think about all these things--resistance to domination, the pleasures and disciplines of cultural and self-transformation, AND the exercise of power over other people. All these things will have to figure into our style . . ."

I'm interested in this, and interested in what folks here think...

alas.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:45 / 28.03.02
Thanks, that helps a lot.

Clears up some of the issues that I've been having.
 
 
tSuibhne
17:38 / 28.03.02
first, a quick correction:

bk: "I dont know about elsewhere, but here in the states if hes in catholic school his parents are most likely paying a fair amount of cash to have him there. they probably arent really struggling to make ends meet"

Acctually Catholic Schools make it a point of not turning away paritioners, because of economic problems. If his parent's are involved in the Church, the Church will work something out so that the children, "can be raised Catholic." This ussually involves some kind of barter. (doing volunteer work in exchange for lowered tuition) This is one of the reasons the school's cost so much.

As far as the "he knew what he was in store for." I think a comparison for this arguement can be drawn to a conservative right wingger posting their ideas on this board. Given the lefty nature of the large majority of posters here, the individual would have to expect resistance and disdain for thier ideas.

This arguement is somewhat flawed, as was pointed out above, since he did not likely choose the school himself.

Reminds me of my prom. A gay freind of mine was turned away at the door because he and his date (a bi female) had gone in drag. They said since she wasn't in a dress, they couldn't get in. And this was a public school.
 
 
Ganesh
17:57 / 28.03.02
It's political incorrectness gone maaaad...
 
 
Captain Zoom
17:59 / 28.03.02
Here's an online petition from CFNY to get him to go.

http://www.edge102.com/station_pages/sp_edge_morning_show.jhtml

I heard about this on the radio a few days ago. They said that if the school board didn't relent they were going to have a "big gay prom" at the studio for him. I don't know if they were serious, but I like the support they're showing.

I don't know if you do have to pay for your child to go to a Catholic school here. Hang on, I'm just phoning my Mum to see if she knows.
Okay, when you fill out your income tax forms here you can indicate which you'd rather your education taxes went to, separate schools or public schools. So his parents aren't actually paying anything more than the rest of us do here.

I think this is just one more example of the out-dated nature of organized religion. Maybe this kid still believes in God and doesn't see anything wrong with what he's doing in his interpretation of God's eyes. I wonder if anyone's asked him that. Anyway, as far as I know he's registered to be on the agenda for the next meeting, so he will be heard. Might be worth going to, that.

Zoom.
 
 
Saint Keggers
18:28 / 28.03.02
Just wondering, where does this kids parents stand on the issue. Anyone know??
 
 
m. anthony bro
03:15 / 30.03.02
Seems simple. They're in love, and it's sweet and pretty. It's churlish to say that they can't express it.
But, I assume that in America, you go to your prom at the end of your final year of school, at which point you are eighteen or so. Meaning, you've had eighteen years to think about whether or not this whole catholicism idea fits you. And, it if appears that it does not, then why are you still attending one of their schools? Perhaps your parents want you to. (answer: fuck your parents, man. You've got to think for yourself)
But, if you come up with "I'm a catholic, but that's full of shit, that", that's when things get dicey. As much as it eats my lunch, the Catholic Church cannot be forced to change, and it cannot be asked to change when it is not ready. If we let every queer kid take his date to the prom tomorrow, then my guess is that you create more problems not less. For Marc, this is a lose-lose situation, and for the school, ditto. They already look like fools to a lot of people, having trotted out this "lifestyle" hack over and over, and a lawsuit is a bitch. Marc gets to take his date, he's going to feel weird all night, like there's a disapproving blob of disapproval right behind him. He doesn't, then that sucks too, and it's just one more blow against the queer kids who feel like the system they're in is out to get them.
No sir, I don't like it.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
07:24 / 30.03.02
Mike has more or less said what I feel on the subject. This bloke has been at this school for six or seven years now, so must have got a smidgen of an idea what the Catholic position on gays is. I don't see a stupid Prom as a particularly useful area to get into a tussle with religious idiots about, especially as he's then leaving the school afterwards. If he were a few years younger or it was a matter that they wanted to expel him for being queer then that's completely different and I would support his action then.

But then I never saw the attraction American Prom's have, who wants to stand in a big hall listening to crap music with a load of people you've mostly despised for several years? And if he and his partner did go, based on the fact of Catholic teaching I'm sure the evening would end up with a good old fashioned spot of ultra-violence from some tanked-up members of their peer rgoup.
 
 
Ganesh
19:45 / 30.03.02
Presumably he's continued attending a Catholic school because, as a teenager, he has relatively little say in where and how he receives his secondary education. And yeah, the Prom - like marriage and the armed forces - isn't to everyone's taste. Thing is, he should have the option to attend or not attend, like everyone else. It's easy to shrug one's shoulders and say 'Catholicism won't change, what's the point'; the point is, if no-one ever challenges the status quo it definitely won't change. If people do, in time it might. Good on him; if a succession of individuals push boundaries, eventually even the most rigid of institutions is forced to adapt.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:36 / 01.04.02
I'm just questioning the value of it being him and now, though I suppose he has the advantage of leaving shortly, so it wouldn't cause him difficulties of continuing being a student there... hmmm.
 
 
Logos
10:07 / 01.04.02
Well, it has to be someone at sometime, I should think, so why not him and now?

The really irksome thing is that they won't even talk about the issue. It's as though the trustees know they haven't got two pins to stand on, so they're hoping to hide until the whole thing's over.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:21 / 09.04.02
Update.

It was a story with an intriguing set of elements. Romance, religion, morality, sexuality…and now, at least from the perspective of a jaded teen and his many supporters, you can add tragedy.

A last ditch-appeal from Oshawa’s Marc Hall to take his gay boyfriend to the school prom was abruptly dashed on Monday night. Hall was given ten minutes to make his case before the Durham Catholic Board, but despite widespread public support, he wasn't able to topple the age-old dogma of the Catholic Church.

It took less than a few minutes for the Board to render its decision. In a pre-written statement, Board Chair Mary Ann Martin said that allowing Hall to go to the prom with his date would be effectively endorsing or teaching that homosexuality was consistent with the religious beliefs of the Catholic Church.

“I say to you, you cannot bring your same-sex partner to the prom, we are not rejecting you as a person,” Martin said. “We accept you, but we cannot condone or allow homosexual behaviour at our school function.”

“I was kind of surprised," said a teary-eyed Hall. "…they obviously don't understand.”

The heartbroken teen hasn't given up however, he's planning to take legal action.


------------------------------------
Notably there seems to be an absence of any commentary from the boyfriend in any of the media reports.
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:34 / 09.04.02
"but we cannot condone or allow homosexual behaviour"....like dancing. oooh, how gay! or laughing, talking. being seen with friends! is that "homosexual behavior"? because, while I really dont know the boy, I dont think he was planning on giving his date sexual favors on the dance floor.

again, I think if this rule (you cant bring a same-sex person to school functions) hasnt been written out, he has cause for legal action. you cant arbitrarily forbid someone from attending an event because of what they may or may not do once they go home together. if they attend dressed appropriately (its a formal occasion, I can understand why that would be expected) and dont engage in any inappropriate behaviors than the only cause they have for ejecting them is because of assumption
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
19:37 / 10.04.02
Due to noise in the office I'm not sure if I heard properly from the radio but I think I just heard that Marc Hall has officially announced his intent to take legal action.

Updates as event warrant.
 
 
Tamayyurt
19:51 / 10.04.02
This kid really is brave! I mean even if they'd let him go to prom I'm sure other idiot kids/prom goers weren't going to be too happy about it. Idiots + Drinking + Brave poof = horrible night out.
I hope he wins and then kicks their asses at prom.

(I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here...sorry)
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:21 / 10.04.02
i think he has the right to be with whomever he wants

however, iirc catholic schools are private institutions, which are allowed to pretty much do what they want (Men's clubs, girl scouts etc)

were i a student i would marchall a movement to boycott the prom
 
 
Captain Zoom
15:15 / 15.04.02
Saw an update about this on Sunday morning. Apparently the school board will "accept" Mark, but will not allow him to "cross that line" that they have set. Mark himself, in an interview, said that it's just this particular school board that won't allow same-sex couples to go to prom, though I have no info to back that up, and, pessimistically, must say it sounds a little far-fetched. On the TV show, his boyfriend was there, but seemed to have a little less to say about it. The most affecting part by far was a shot of Mark after the verdict had been handed down. He was crying, and his boyfriend was comforting him. Obviously a great deal of affection between these two that was really nice to see. If the school board can't accept that then they've no right preaching unconditional love from their god.

Evil Zoom.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:15 / 15.05.02
Final update on this.

The judge made an eleventh hour ruling that upheld Marc Hall's right to take his boyfriend to the prom. The Catholic School Board had made some squirming attempts to save face by offering the couple access to the prom but would not be able to make a front door entrance.

The judge basically said that Marc Hall had a constitutional right.

Naturally spokespeople for the Catholic School Board critisized the judgement in a rather thin, wordy manner.

The prom has gone ahead, the Catholic Church is still standing, God failed to cast lightening bolts at anyone and the whole issue has been quietly swept under the rug as a slightly embaressing glitch in Canada's otherwise libertarian society.
 
 
Ganesh
15:25 / 15.05.02
So he doesn't have to... (oo-er missus style dramatic pause)... enter from the rear?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:44 / 15.05.02
Nope, he entered at the front with a full announcement and full contingent of media.
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:38 / 15.05.02
Thanks for this, potus. I'd wondered what happened with all this.

Zoom.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
01:08 / 16.05.02
QUOTE: I'm implying a non harmful lifestyle) without impingement.

seems to me, "Catholic Priest" is one of the more harmful lifestyles out there...
 
 
betty woo
19:08 / 16.05.02
In related news, a Catholic school in Sacramento, FL has expelled a 5 year old girl from Kindergarten because her mother works as an exotic dancer. A job she took up, apparently, in order to pay the private school tuition fees. [story link]

The tricky part to this story is apparently that the mother signed a statement that she would uphold the church's values as a condition of her child's enrollment.
 
  

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