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Poetrial

 
  

Page: (1)234

 
 
deja_vroom
15:24 / 07.02.02
I've been thinking about creating a thread where all the wannabe poets could put their works to be SERIOUSLY analized and discussed. Like autopilot's "acid bath" idea. What do you think? Anyone wanna begin? Cruelty a must.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:51 / 07.02.02
sissys.
 
 
matsya
19:08 / 07.02.02
The Tiny Fists of Babies

Today I found a new kind of vegetable at the grocers’,
some kind of tuber I think. Earth from its hiding place
still clung to its smooth purple-black skin and there
were several strangely-shaped protrusions at various
points along its length. Sitting here on the table

as I stare at it they resemble nothing so much as the tiny fists
of babies in the womb. I wonder about the colour of the flesh
beneath that skin, whether it would be pasty white and moist
like a potato’s or perhaps something more vivid — the deep
blood of beetroot or the sickly green of a choko.

And now I realise that I don’t know if the skin is edible or not.
The best thing to do would be to draw up a list of all potential
cooking methods: peeled and roasted, unpeeled and roasted,
peeled and mashed with butter, unpeeled and sliced thinly
then sauteed with garlic and virgin olive oil. I’m beginning

to realise that this single representative of its species
is inadequate to satisfy the plans that I am developing for it.
Once I begin cutting and dicing any attempts to recapture
the experience for my friends will depend on my powers
of description and a handful of purple peelings fermenting

at the top of the compost heap. Better that I invite them over
so that they can join me for a banquet in its honour, and
better still that I stock up on more of these things in order to
make sure that my guests are properly fed. I snatch the string
bag from its hook and pull the back door shut behind me.

As I mount my bicycle I try to put out of my mind the vision of the
vegetable’s tiny fists uncurling and stubby fingers extending as it
balances on its palms and clumsily hops across the kitchen table,
but I know that if I come back home to find it moved even half an
inch from where I left it, that I won’t be entirely surprised.

m.
 
 
Kitten Caboodle
05:33 / 08.02.02
Well, it's quite nice, (especially the last bit) but it's not really poetry, is it? It works and reads much better as prose. Is that how you originally wrote it?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:29 / 08.02.02
Oh, I think that qualifies as poetry all right... there's a *definite* rhythm thing going on there. Plus, to me it *feels* poetry.

Gosh, articulate today.
 
 
deja_vroom
08:14 / 08.02.02
you can do better you bunch of bastards. I didn't hear matsya screaming.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
11:57 / 08.02.02
Is it a syllabic?
 
 
Persephone
00:01 / 09.02.02
I think it is completely beautiful.

I'm sorry Jade...

It's funny to me because Husband was leafing through his garden catalogues and asking me to pick a potato to grow and I really don't care, the only thing I had to say "All I don't want are those freaky blue potatoes!"
 
 
matsya
09:35 / 11.02.02
well, the prose vs. poetry thing is always hard to argue for me, but it was intentionally written as a poem (and I think it is a poem, albeit a rather prosaic and narrative poem) after reading the work of US poet Stephen Dobyns, who is VERY narrative in his poetry. That's the kind of thing that it interests me to write at the moment.

but yeah, I wouldn't mind some more crit. I can take it.

m.

ps- whisky: what's a syllabic?

[ 11-02-2002: Message edited by: matsya ]
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:47 / 16.02.02
Okay. Whaddaya think?

Feb. 14, 2002
make yourself up
apply on the outside what is inside already
and prepare, my love, for the feast
of St. Valentine
the cultured dinner that will degenerate
into the savage feeding
that's why we're there, after all
forks will be dropped to the floor
and teeth will sink into
the meat of your heart
once the wine has been finished
our sex will be licked
to slake the thirst of the revelers
passing the innards around the table
and hungry without ending
swallowing whole the desires and lusts
of whoever is sitting next to you
dropping on all fours
and offering yourself as the main course
this orgy, this bacchanal
violence without blood
spiritually eviscerated
and spread and entered more deeply
than is possible
prepare, my love
I want you.

Zoom.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
14:33 / 17.02.02
I was a little wary. Much prose is called poetry. But I'd say this works as poetry.

I still have much to learn, as any poet honest with herself would readily admit--and I am trying to look at word choice, etc; however, it being a longer piece, I'll need to take more time on that--but my immediate suggestions are on punctuation, which is often such an underused tool.

You need a comma after "table" in L5 of S1. And I'm not sure, but a comma might also be called for after "it" in L1 of S2.

L3 of S4--comma after "dicing."

I like the tone of the piece. This seems really smart, but I don't have time to devote all the attention it deserves right now. I'll come back later.

quote:The Tiny Fists of Babies
Today I found a new kind of vegetable at the grocers’,
some kind of tuber I think. Earth from its hiding place
still clung to its smooth purple-black skin and there
were several strangely-shaped protrusions at various
points along its length. Sitting here on the table

as I stare at it they resemble nothing so much as the tiny fists
of babies in the womb. I wonder about the colour of the flesh
beneath that skin, whether it would be pasty white and moist
like a potato’s or perhaps something more vivid — the deep
blood of beetroot or the sickly green of a choko.

And now I realise that I don’t know if the skin is edible or not.
The best thing to do would be to draw up a list of all potential
cooking methods: peeled and roasted, unpeeled and roasted,
peeled and mashed with butter, unpeeled and sliced thinly
then sauteed with garlic and virgin olive oil. I’m beginning

to realise that this single representative of its species
is inadequate to satisfy the plans that I am developing for it.
Once I begin cutting and dicing any attempts to recapture
the experience for my friends will depend on my powers
of description and a handful of purple peelings fermenting

at the top of the compost heap. Better that I invite them over
so that they can join me for a banquet in its honour, and
better still that I stock up on more of these things in order to
make sure that my guests are properly fed. I snatch the string
bag from its hook and pull the back door shut behind me.

As I mount my bicycle I try to put out of my mind the vision of the
vegetable’s tiny fists uncurling and stubby fingers extending as it
balances on its palms and clumsily hops across the kitchen table,
but I know that if I come back home to find it moved even half an
inch from where I left it, that I won’t be entirely surprised.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
14:43 / 17.02.02
This is my favorite of the pieces I've seen you post in Daily Poetry.

Being a lover of punctuation, I really cannot condone what appears to me to be an arbitrary use of it.

I don't understand the relevence of "make yourself up" and the following line to the rest of this piece, though I must say I do like the inversion of "inside already" on L2.

"passing the innards around the table
and hungry without ending" does not make grammatical sense, even forgiving an absence of punctuation.

I love "forks will be dropped to the floor" to demonstrate digging in with hands, but I wonder why the passive voice?

The metaphor is very strong, but again, I do not see where some of the lines fit in.

"spiritually" eviscerated falls flat--perhaps another word.

I think we understand it's an orgy. Must you say so?

I hope I'm coming off as critical only and not destructive, because I really like this piece. I just think that it can be tightened and rendered more powerful.


quote:Feb. 14, 2002
make yourself up
apply on the outside what is inside already
and prepare, my love, for the feast
of St. Valentine
the cultured dinner that will degenerate
into the savage feeding
that's why we're there, after all
forks will be dropped to the floor
and teeth will sink into
the meat of your heart
once the wine has been finished
our sex will be licked
to slake the thirst of the revelers
passing the innards around the table
and hungry without ending
swallowing whole the desires and lusts
of whoever is sitting next to you
dropping on all fours
and offering yourself as the main course
this orgy, this bacchanal
violence without blood
spiritually eviscerated
and spread and entered more deeply
than is possible
prepare, my love
I want you.
 
 
Captain Zoom
16:01 / 17.02.02
I originally had "disembowelled spiritually", but only 'cause the word "eviscerated had momentarily been dropped from my memory.

I am not a lover of punctuation in poetry. For me the stream of consciousness that I try, but don't always succeed, to evoke is stifled by it. But I'll give it some thought.

The first two lines are the preparation. The poem is not just evoking an orgy, more a play. Imagine a medieval banquet hall, torch-lit, all the people wearing antiquated clothes, but their faces made up like harlequins. My theory, and to a lesser extent experience, is that one prepares for this kind of sex in a far more ritualistic fashion than just sex between two.

What if I removed the "and" in "and hungry without ending", giving it the feel of two separate sentences, even without the punctuation?

Good call about the orgy line. It's realy pretty transparent isn't it?

Thanks applepicker. Your criticism is wonderful.

Zoom.
 
 
Captain Zoom
16:09 / 17.02.02
In fact, I'm in such a gloriously fantabulous mood, I'm gonna revise the poem and post it again. Just to see what happens.

Neat.

Zoom.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
16:13 / 17.02.02
I humbly accept your too kind compliment of my critical skills. I really have so much to learn, despite what I've learned already, I always have a bit of stage fright before digging in to a fresh piece.

I think I didn't articulate myself very clearly: I really like the word "eviscerate" there. But I got no feeling from the word "spiritually" paired with it. I'll try to brainstorm and toss about some possible alternatives.

[ 17-02-2002: Message edited by: theapplepicker ]
 
 
Captain Zoom
12:23 / 26.03.02
(Please excuse the silly name. It's kind of an in-joke)

I fell down a rabbit hole today.
I knew you wouldn't believe me
but I did.
I fell down a rabbit hole and got lost.
I spoke to flowers and cats
I was chased by playing cards
I had tea with a madman,
but you don't believe me.
There were queens and duchesses
there were talking hares and mock turtles
a Caucus-Race and a Lobster-Quadrille,
but you won't believe me.
You'd rather believe in a world
where men kill each other
over differing opinions on the same
god.
You'd rather believe in a place
where parents hurt or kill
their children.
You'd rather believe that there is
no hope, nothing better than
the despair you see.
But I fell down a rabbit hole today.

Let me have it.

Zoom.
 
 
Captain Zoom
19:02 / 08.04.02
Alright, in keeping with the rather malicious tone that the Daily Poetry has seen recently, I'm bumping this back up. I really do want to start a little constructive criticism, but I think we need to re-write the rules. How about this: if you see something in the DP thread that you want to comment on, PM the writer and ask if they mind your putting it here. If they do, let it go. The poem is ultimately the property of the writer and we should all respect that. However, if they don't mind, copy it here and do it. Let loose. I'd like to give complete permission to anyone who wants to comment on anything I've written to do so here.

Zoom.
 
 
Billy Corgan
19:08 / 08.04.02
I give you all full permission to criticize my "Daily Poetry" poems in this forum.
 
 
Captain Zoom
19:21 / 08.04.02
Billy - less a criticism than a question? The subject matter of your poems is very dark and pessimistic. Is this a conscious choice? Your poems keep their focus well, something I constantly struggle with, and your descriptions and language are cool sometimes. Have you thought of applying this to more optimistic poetry, or do you see your stuff as optimistic and I'm misinterpreting?

Jade - another question. What influenced you to break your poems up into numbered sections? I've done it a few times myself, and I can't even remember what put the thought into my head. Was it a function of the way the poem was heading, breaking up different but inter-related ideas, or a stylitic thing?

That's one thing I find interesting about poems. Apart from being a very word-oriented medium, the way people arrange those words makes it a very visual medium too. How does the visual layout of a poem affect the reading and/or enjoyment of it?

Zoom.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
20:28 / 08.04.02
Okay, Billy. You asked for it. I'm going to be as gentle as I can be.

I don't even know if this piece is capable of being salvaged.


--first of all, no title? Why not? A title is such an excellent tool for a poet. Why throw it away?
a shimmer of hope --so cliche, I have to bite my lip
in an ocean of spite --not feelin' it.
I am lost --erm, so am I

why?
why do we try?
why?
oh why?
why?
why do babies feel the pain?
why do we hurt each other?
why can't we all love?
--repetitive, tediously angsty. By no means do writers need always abide by "no ideas but in things, but you REALLY might want to master that first. Otherwise you end up knee-deep in tripe like this.

you want this world of hate
you tell me this
with your hate mouth
your poison pen
and hell words
--I'm getting tired.

I do not want to live in this world of doom
no
I do not
--why are you repeating? It does nothing for the strength of your piece.

Here's a suggestion that I think you'll find invaluable: Go to your nearest store or library. Buy or borrow as many books on poetry as you can find. Both academic texts as well as books filled with poetry. A fun one to start with is Poem Crazy and an excellent academic text is To Read A Poem by Hall. Really--please do this.

Think about this:

So much
depends upon

a red wheel
barrow glazed

with rain
water beside

the white
chickens.
~William Carlos Williams

(I hope that I quoted that correctly; someone please correct me if I haven't.) Line breaks, diction, assonance, so many poetic tools are used to turn one sentence into something that impacts, at least me, on a visceral as well as an intellectual level.
 
 
Billy Corgan
20:34 / 08.04.02
First of all, I do not write out the titles in the Daily Poetry thread, but that poem is called "Hate Mouth", if you must know.

All due respect, Apple-Picker, but I do not think you know the first thing about poetry, or the bearing of one's soul. This is not the thing of books and academia, but of communicating the very secrets of one's soul. You may be book-smart, but you know nothing of the soul and the spirit.

This poem you quote by William Carlos Williams is little more than college-boy artsy nonsense. It tells me nothing about his pain or joy, or my own. It is worthless.
 
 
Captain Zoom
20:40 / 08.04.02
Alright Billy. I was trying to be diplomatic, but you're really a fuckin' jerk, aren't you?
Why don't you tell us what you consider to be the proper elements of a poem, as the rest of us seem to fall by the wayside, in your not-so-humble opinion.
Educate us, oh enlightened one, for we are nothing but dirt beneath your brilliant feet.
Jerk.

Zoom.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
20:44 / 08.04.02
Oh, dear, dear, sad, missdirected Billy. May I call you Billy?

"You may be book-smart, but you know nothing of the soul and the spirit." --I still have much to learn--I am quick to admit that. It's unfortunate that you are to arrogant to do the same. If you took the time to learn more from books, you might be more skilled in expressing yourself.

And if all you want to do is write poetry for yourself, then why invite critique? Sounds to me like you just want to masturbate and be applauded for it.

Unfortunately, that piece by WCW does express his joy. How sad it is that your arrogance inhibits you from seeing that. It would be worthless to you for that reason.

If you are the solispist you seem, I expect that your work will not improve except by fortune, not through your knowledge or this supreme ability you credit yourself with having of baring your soul's secrets.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:05 / 08.04.02
This is quite excruciating to watch. Whether Billy's poetry or the following critique is more painful is going to take some working out...
 
 
Captain Zoom
23:20 / 08.04.02
Imagine being part of it.
I'm so embarassed.

Zoom.
 
 
muse
00:56 / 09.04.02
Willie Carlos... college boy artsy nonsense? That stings man, but to each their own. But I like the question, "What are the proper elements of a poem?" Which begs an even better one, is a poem ever finished? I don't know if there are "proper elements", but I do know that everything in a poem should be there for a reason, be it word choice, capitalization, punctuation, line breaks, stanza breaks, whatever. If you can't justify the "why", then the poem isn't finished. So my question is, if it's not finished, is it a poem?
 
 
muse
02:25 / 09.04.02
Wait... how about these for proper elements: theme, image, or structure. Notice the "or", as any one poem doesn't need all three.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:24 / 09.04.02
You might also want to think about the metonymic bridging which, although not an intrinsic element of poetry, does go some distance to establishing something as "poetic" rather than "prosaic", be it poetry or prose.

Rhythms are also good - "free" verse is not arrhythmic, as far too many people seem to believe....
 
 
deja_vroom
11:48 / 09.04.02
Billy - your scope is too narrow. This is just whining. Your rhythms seem to be following some guitar riff that the rest of us (thankfully) canot hear. Your choice to repeat to the limit of human patience this sort of shallow statements (I hate you I love you I love hate I hate to love etc ad nauseam) suggests that you're too tied to a method of composition more fit to pop song structures than free verse.

Read more, and begin with prose. Then move on to poetry. And show some respect towards your art. (What's this with demeaning other people's works as "artsy"?)

Zoom, I'll soon be answering your questions. Be right back
 
 
Captain Zoom
12:51 / 09.04.02
Haus, could you elaborate on "metonymic bridging"? I looked metonymic up in a dictionary but I'm still not quite sure what you mean. Thanks.

Zoom.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:18 / 09.04.02
Well, I'll try owt once...

Consider this:

Deep with the first dead lies London's daughter,
Robed in the long friends,
The grains beyond age, the dark veins of her mother


Now, "robed in the long friends" is aphasic. The poor stuttering senile fuck has clearly got the word wrong. You can't be robed in friends. You can't be robed in grains or veins, either. Stupid piece of shit.

Except, hold on....it kind of works. 'cause, you know, you've got the dead, who are kind of friends, and maybe the death-robes are sort of friends, and they are probably long and then the veins aren't, like, real veins, and her mother isn't her biological mother. Maybe you were wrong. Maybe you misjudged this guy. Maybe you want to be his best friend.

So, there is a kind of series of connections going on here, but in every case the logical sequence of explanations and comparisons is not a part of the text, so the reader has to create a connection based on the metaphorical and contextual associations of the word they read, as opposed to the word they expect - a metonymic bridge, where the part describes the whole.

Will that do?
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:38 / 09.04.02
Cheers.

Zoom.
 
 
deja_vroom
14:00 / 09.04.02
Zoom:

About what influences me to do it, it’s the poem that asks for it, really.

To break a poem into numbered sections lends a sense of purpose to the work, like if you’re telling a story – only you aren’t. At least, not by conventional ways. Speaking by myself, I’m never telling a story, it’s more about the way words work together to suggest a certain image or the way they will sound in the reader’s head.

You can break your poem in order to tackle different aspects of a given subject; you can do it to suggest the passing of time; you can do it to mime the particularities of the speech – the breathing, the pausing, the hesitation – and you can do it just to please the eyes.

When writing a poem, you have to cnsider not only the words, but the shape that the printed thing will acquire. In Portuguese we call it “mancha do poema”, and that’s why expensive editions of celebrated poets have one poem per page, only – so one poem’s shape won’t interefere with another’s. In English it could be called “poem blot(?), sillouette(?)”. So you see, in a well-thought piece of poetry, even the blank spaces are considered.
 
 
Billy Corgan
18:58 / 09.04.02
Quite frankly, I think you are all a bunch of intellectual elitists who are out of touch with what poetry should be - a conduit into a person's soul. All true poetry expresses a person's innermost feelings as direct and powerfully as possible. Poetry should be naked and unaffected. It should be raw and free. If you are not expressing the secrets of your soul, then you are not a poet. It is that easy, I think.
 
 
Captain Zoom
19:23 / 09.04.02
If you think that Billy, why do you insult other people's work? Unless you think everyone's souls should bare themselves just like yours does. The poems I've written, or some of them at least, do bare my soul, or bare what I was feeling there at the time. If that is what poetry is meant for, then how dare you insult such feelings?

Zoom.
 
  

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