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Underground > Radio & Music >

Is there something wrong with Tool?

  
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
Laughing
14:00 / 28.01.02
....because whenever I mention Tool or their music I get a disgusted look and a rolling of the eyes. And once someone actually said, "Why do you listen to that crap? They're just a rip-off of Metallica." (?????) If it was the just the rotten teenagers at the mall who had this reaction then I wouldn't worry, because mallrats are notorious for their ignorance of "good" things. But older and supposedly wiser heads who love hard rock and metal and have musical tastes independent of the MTV playlist also shake their heads and say, "Tsk, tsk," whenver I put Lateralus in the stereo.
Maybe it's just a New England thing. After all, these are the people who gave us Godsmack, not to mention witch trials and Puritanism.
Am I wrong for liking Tool? I'm going to listen to their music regardless, but I'd like to know if doing so is deviant in some way.
 
 
Margin Walker
02:35 / 29.01.02
Am I wrong for liking Tool?

I guess it depends where you lick 'em. Oh, liking.

<cue stale audience laugh track>

All tasteless kidding aside, why would you care if someone thinks a band you like is shit? If nothing else, they get big fuckin' brownie points for hangin' out with Bill Hicks before he died.
 
 
Cop Killer
05:40 / 29.01.02
It ain't wrong man, they fucking rock, and they don't sound like Metallica at all, so I don't know what the fuck those people were talking about.
 
 
Ganesh
05:40 / 29.01.02
Their sniggersome name?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
10:10 / 29.01.02
With the exception of "Sober" and "Prison Sex" (which are both relatively pleasant grunge rock), I think that Tool is mostly just indistinguishable prog metal with absolutely zero hooks, terrible lyrics and an obnoxious singer.

[ 29-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Spec Bebop ]
 
 
Opalfruit
10:20 / 29.01.02
I like Tool, very intense and at times crunchy metal, love it. The videos rock and any band with former members of Green Jelly in them has got to be good....
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
10:26 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Margin Walker:
[bIf nothing else, they get big fuckin' brownie points for hangin' out with Bill Hicks before he died.

Fucking sellout pussies! If they were real friends, they wouldn't have dumped him just because he died! I still have his shinbone stuck through my nose, man!
 
 
Steppin' Razer
13:19 / 29.01.02
A: You shouldnt care, FOR THE LAST TIME WORLD: TASTE IS RELATIVE. So tired of "alternative" people hating "mainstream" music and all the roots and branches in between. If I want to listen to Pink, Emperor, R.Kelly, Slayer, Cursive, John Zorn, and John Fahey in one mix I am happy.

B: I am quite smitten with Tool. I LOVE Lateralus.

C: Dear critics of everything,
Until you produce something on your own, shut the fuck up. Even then, take what you can from everything, EVERYTHING. Be it pop, obscure, Steinem, Hitler, Ayn Rand, or Grant Morrison. Everything has something to teach you. Everything.

Whoa, guess the fact that an on-call wake up two hours before I was supposed to be up makes for a snappy response
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:32 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Steppin' Razer:
C: Dear critics of everything,
Until you produce something on your own, shut the fuck up. Even then, take what you can from everything, EVERYTHING. Be it pop, obscure, Steinem, Hitler, Ayn Rand, or Grant Morrison. Everything has something to teach you. Everything.

Well, first, I suppose I do qualify to be critical by yr standards, as I am in fact a very prolific songwriter and visual artist.

That aside, I think that this argument is nonsense. I don't think that having been involved in creative endeavors should be a prerequisite for criticism, because I think that if anything, that could actually cloud someone's judgement.

I think that criticism should be based on two things: first, an ability to articulate taste and aesthetics. Anyone can do that with varying degrees of success. Second, and I think this is very important: a critic should have a solid grasp on the history of the artform that they are critiquing, as well an enthusiasm for the artform. Often, the scale can tip too much in one direction, often favoring the former over the latter. When there is a nice balance, and a writer is not attempting to put forth an agenda, criticism can be a very interesting and enlightening thing that can enhance the experience of relating to a work of art.
 
 
Ganesh
13:34 / 29.01.02
Yeah, stop criticising the critics! They do a great job and they can't answer back...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:44 / 29.01.02
Geez. How many times has Tool been the subject of controversy in the Music? At least 3 or 4 times in the last 6-7 months. At least they evoke strong reactions in people.

Anyway, I love Tool. The more I listen to 'Lateralus', the more I love it. To be fair, I do think 'Undertow' was a pretty weak album, especially considering how amazing their ep 'Opiate' was before that. But 'Aenima' and 'Lateralus' are great.

Their last concert was also the closest thing to a huge unconscious group ritual that I'd ever been to. Very powerful especially during Parabol/Parabola.

But, like I said in another thread, one persons 'profound' is another's 'banal'. I'm just curious as to what it is that triggers so many haters of the band.

I especially find it interesting when I come across people who love the singer from 'A Perfect Circle' who hate Maynard from 'Tool' not realizing they're the same person.

[ 29-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:37 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
I'm just curious as to what it is that triggers so many haters of the band.



Well, their utter lack of tunes is what does it for me, and the really bad lyrics/song titles doesn't do anything to make that any better. It's not like a deep burning hatred for me, I just don't really care for them.

I usually just associate them with those angry loner video game types of guys...
 
 
Laughing
16:07 / 29.01.02
ahem...

What I meant to address in this thread was "Why do the people I encounter hate Tool so much?" I'm not saying "Why don't all those losers like Tool, man?", I'm just curious why the negative reactions I get toward Tool are so much more extreme than those toward other bands.

Me: "I like Pink Floyd."
Typical Person's Reaction: "Yeah, they're good."
Me: "I like the Chili Peppers."
T.P.R.: "Nah, they kinda suck."
Me: "I like Creedence."
T.P.R.: "They're okay, I guess."
Me: "I like Tool."
T.P.R.: " (gagging)What?! You like Tool!? What the hell is wrong with you?"

I just wanted to know if this intense hatred of Tool is for a particular reason, or if it actually is just a New England regional thing. I'm not worried that I'm not "cool" because "everybody thinks my favorite bands are lame, Mommy!"

P.S. Steppin' Razer -- damn, buddy! Calm down!

P.P.S. Lothar Tuppan -- Undertow weak? Opiate better than Undertow??! But to each his own.

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: Storm of Blue vs. REO Speedwagon ]
 
 
Captain Zoom
17:15 / 29.01.02
I've never encountered extreme reactions to their music. If someone I know doesn't like them it's more like your chili peppers example above.

I'm listening to Lateralus right now. I love it.

Zoom.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
17:28 / 29.01.02
<sigh>

It doesn't matter. Not in the least. Flux is (once again) attaching good/bad motifs to his own personal taste, while decrying that in others. This is indicative of the kind of attitude you find puzzling, and it's a nonsense.

FACT: whether you like them/their music/their image/their lyrics/their fucking song titles (what an enriching way to posit an argument against something), Tool are an antidote to the bandwagon mentality ongoing in popular rock music, and always have been - even when they sounded a little like Soundgarden, they were qualitatively not Soundgarden.

FACT: Tool, as individuals and in their music, celebrate diversity, choice and freedom of expression, and aren't shy about saying so.

FACT: Despite a recent 'prog-metal' (please, someone, try and qualify why this is inherently a derogatory term without resorting to school-yard politics) album with no obvious singles, wilfully obscure song titles and references, and constant snatches of actual (and therefore non-mainstream) occultism and magick assumed into the lyrical concerns, they're still selling a shitload every week, and got rave critical acclaim. Anyone else know of a band who produce something that should, by rights, be underground or, possibly more accurately, niche-market, and still attract serious interest worldwide?

Whether you like them or love them, are indifferent or can't stand them, the fact that they exist is a Good Thing.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
18:01 / 29.01.02
Thank you Jack.

As for the hatred thing, it's not just a New England thing. I've experienced it in California, and on Barbelith.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:55 / 29.01.02


FACT: whether you like them/their music/their image/their lyrics/their fucking song titles (what an enriching way to posit an argument against something),

Yes. "Hooker With A Penis", "Stinkfist", "Aenima". Brilliant and mature titles, of course...

Tool are an antidote to the bandwagon mentality ongoing in popular rock music, and always have been -

An antidote?

even when they sounded a little like Soundgarden, they were qualitatively not Soundgarden.

Yes, because Soundgarden had a bunch of catchy songs, and their proggy tendencies and dynamics suited them far better.

Tool, as individuals and in their music, celebrate diversity, choice and freedom of expression, and aren't shy about saying so.

Yes, which of course is such a rare thing among musicians and artists.

constant snatches of actual (and therefore non-mainstream) occultism and magick assumed into the lyrical concerns,

I can see why that would be a novelty, but I'm probably the very last person on Barbelith to say "oh wow! cool! occultism!". I'm not too impressed by that...

got rave critical acclaim.

Sorta. I think it would be more fair to say that Lateralus received mixed reviews, because there were a lot of negative reviews too.

Anyone else know of a band who produce something that should, by rights, be underground or, possibly more accurately, niche-market, and still attract serious interest worldwide?

Well, I guess Radiohead do that too. However, if you mean other bands with a similar lack of tunes, I'm going to have to draw a blank...

The metal market is pretty big, and there's a lot of angry video game dudes out there. I'm not going to argue with them, and I don't really disrespect Tool, their audience, or prog metal. I just don't like any of their songs. I've just never been a fan of dirges, really.

[ 29-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Spec Bebop ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:08 / 29.01.02
Well, looking back over this one thread in which you've qualitatively said:

"I think that Tool is mostly just indistinguishable prog metal with absolutely zero hooks, terrible lyrics and an obnoxious singer."

"Well, their utter lack of tunes is what does it for me, and the really bad lyrics/song titles doesn't do anything to make that any better. "

I'd hate to see how you react to a band that you do disrespect.

Not to mention the disrespect inherent in the 'Angry video game dude' label.

[ 29-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:15 / 29.01.02
Well, yeah.

Don't ask me what I think of Bright Eyes, alright?
 
 
Ierne
19:19 / 29.01.02
Flux is (once again) attaching good/bad motifs to his own personal taste, while decrying that in others. This is indicative of the kind of attitude you find puzzling, and it's a nonsense. – Jack the Bodiless

Interesting that in responding to Jack's post, Flux didn't mention this small yet crucial aspect.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:23 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:

Interesting that in responding to Jack's post, Flux didn't mention this small yet crucial aspect.

Well, how do you suggest that I counter it? I'm not going to contest his point, because it is valid.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
19:42 / 29.01.02
Ah, Flux. Clearly thought it was sufficient to quote my last post, rather than actually read it...

1. So they have 'songs' now? Please, at least try and stay consistent witihn the same post. And by the way - saying a band 'do not have songs' is a statement that requires amplifying, unless you enjoy sounding like you belong on www.durstrocks.com.

2. Quoting somebody back in an incredulous, italic-abusing manner does not actually constitute a reasoned response. It makes you look like you didn't understand the original post.

3. Yes. It is not rare for musicians and artists to celebrate diversity, choice and freedom of expression (I'll leave for the moment the fact that it is rare for a metal band to do so). Neither is it common. What's your point? Does your trite little putdown make it any less laudable that Tool do perate the above mechanism? Or that so many of their songs are precisely about the application of said mechanism? You claim Tool belong in the same category as all the other bands that 'angry video game dudes' out there like. You mean the hate rock, rap rock, nu punk/metal/whatever rubbish who whines about how their daddy didn't give them enough pocket money? You do not know what you are talking about. If you wish to speak as if you are an authority on something, please look it up first. You are horribly embarrassing yourself.

4. The whole Soundgarden thing... you really don't know how to do this 'reasoned response' thing, do you? Here's a hint: explain what you mean lucidly and articulately without referring to your own purely personal taste. It worked better for Soundgarden, did it? This 'prog' thing that you've repeatedly slagged without any actual attempt at even a rationalisation? Fucksake.

5. And the song title thing... 'Hooker With A Penis' has a lyric venomously and intelligently spitting back at those claiming they've sold out, citing capitalist doctrine as a mantra ("I'm the man, and if I'm the man, then you're the man, and he's then man as well... I sold my soul to make a record, and you bought one..."). 'Stinkfist' uses anal fistfucking as a metaphor for sinking yourself so far into something (a relationship, an artistic creation, anything) because nothing else is as important, and nothing else makes you feel as alive. 'Aenima'... words fail me, Flux. It's a portmanteau word: Enema/Anima. Look the latter up. The lyric, because I just know you won't have bothered to check, is about the utter despair at looking at the world around you, and seeing nothing but shallowness, feeling almost like a flood to wash it all away would be preferable. And containing the lines "Don't just call me pessimist/Try and read between the lines/I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my friend..." to differentiate the mood from the misanthropic crap other bands were putting out. No, they're not particularly subtle titles. The lyrics are subtle, however. If you'd stopped jerking your knee as if you were critically epileptic, you'd have checked them out first.

You don't like Tool. Fine. I'm not pissed off about that - it's not like you're alone. But show some fucking intelligence when you criticise something. If you're going to slag them off on any other grounds than 'they aren't my cup of tea', you need to think. The Music should not be exempt from that. If you want more examples of what you seem to think is criticism, may I suggest once again that I think I can hear www.durstrocks.com calling your name...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
19:45 / 29.01.02
Please God, let no one have actually tried those 'links'...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:14 / 29.01.02
I just find it interesting that in a thread dedicated to discussing the strange phenomena of vehement negative reactions to Tool, Flux demonstrates that tendency.

About a band that he says: "It's not like a deep burning hatred for me, I just don't really care for them."

He's going on and on to try and convince us that the music and the lead singer are utter shit. Weird thing to do if you don't hate Tool.

My point is that this isn't really meant as an attack on Flux but is an interesting case in point of the original question.

Why Tool? Why the intense negative reaction and expenditure of energy over a band that you just 'don't really care for'?

Or is this an approach you take with other bands as well and it's not just Tool?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:15 / 29.01.02
1. So they have 'songs' now? Please, at least try and stay consistent witihn the same post. And by the way - saying a band 'do not have songs'

Well, I was making some effort at being kind in summary. I also realize that it is very strange, given my own taste for kinds of music which lack obvious structure, melody, tonality, etc to shoot down a band for having no 'tunes'. That is a bit unfair.

2. Quoting somebody back in an incredulous, italic-abusing manner does not actually constitute a reasoned response. It makes you look like you didn't understand the original post.

It's a technique that I've been using for years: I respond directly to a post and quote exactly what I am responding to, in a way to simulate an actual conversation, or at very least, making things a bit less confusing and easier to read.

3. Yes. It is not rare for musicians and artists to celebrate diversity, choice and freedom of expression (I'll leave for the moment the fact that it is rare for a metal band to do so). Neither is it common. What's your point? Does your trite little putdown make it any less laudable that Tool do perate the above mechanism?

To put it another way: So what? Why would that rather common quality be used as a great compliment, as it was in the first post. I'm not putting down Tool for having a rather common belief, I'm just saying that it's not exactly the best case to be made for why they may be unique and special.

You claim Tool belong in the same category as all the other bands that 'angry video game dudes' out there like. You mean the hate rock, rap rock, nu punk/metal/whatever rubbish who whines about how their daddy didn't give them enough pocket money?

Now yr just putting words in my mouth. I never outlined exactly what I meant by that, nor did I presume to limit or pigeonhole their tastes. I just noted that a large portion of their fanbase happened to fit that description. I wasn't even implying that 'angry video game dudes' are necessarily even a bad thing. I was only implying that I don't relate to them.

The whole Soundgarden thing... you really don't know how to do this 'reasoned response' thing, do you? Here's a hint: explain what you mean lucidly and articulately without referring to your own purely personal taste.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only reasonably argue any of this based only on my own personal taste, right? Because I would be hard pressed to give you any empirical evidence as to why *any* musician is great in terms of hard facts...


'Aenima'... words fail me, Flux. It's a portmanteau word: Enema/Anima.

Yes, Jack, I know. But it's also a scatological pun.

Jack, I've heard each one of Tool's records a few times over, save for Lateralus, which I've only heard once straight through. I have indeed read through the lyrics. In all fairness to Maynard Keenan, I don't think he's a very good lyricist, but I would not ever put the guy on a list of bad lyricists either.

The thing of it is, I'm with Christgau when it comes to bad reviews: I would much rather write about bands that I have an interest in, or really like than waste my time arguing why I don't like something. I used to have a lot more energy for this sort of thing, I think it's rather silly to try to give a strong intellectual argument for not liking something unless it really crosses over a line and offends you - and Tool doesn't offend me. I generally don't care about Tool. The guy who started the thread wanted to know what people here thought of them, I chimed in. Somebody else wanted to know what reasons people who don't like them have for feeling that way, I answered. It's not as though I brought the topic up.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:23 / 29.01.02
No. Read the first post again. Now Read Lothar's last one. That's what the thread's about. As Master Tuppen has pointed out, you've just exemplified the exact qualities this thread was created to discuss.

Saying a song title's a scatological pun is at least a step towards saying why you don't like it, I suppose... although you've once again failed to recognise the fact that half the word is 'anima'... but what else should I expect from someone who not only can't be arsed to discuss music on an intelligent level, but also believes that he's not able to tell us why 'someone's a great musician'.

Fred Durst is calling you, Flux...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:49 / 29.01.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
As Master Tuppen has pointed out, you've just exemplified the exact qualities this thread was created to discuss.

Well, I'm sure I make a lovely test specimen, then...


Saying a song title's a scatological pun is at least a step towards saying why you don't like it, I suppose...

Well, the song title isn't really the reason why I dislike the song "Aenima". I'm just saying that I think Tool generally have lame song titles. Which is a statement based entirely upon my own tastes.

although you've once again failed to recognise the fact that half the word is 'anima'...

What, was I supposed to write a paragraph about why it was sooooo amazing that they knew the word 'anima', which mind is not all that obscure of a word/concept, and then decided to title a song/album that word using it also in a way to be a scatalogical pun? I'm not too impressed by that, honestly.

but what else should I expect from someone who not only can't be arsed to discuss music on an intelligent level,

It may be more fair to say that I refuse to intellectualize the band Tool.

but also believes that he's not able to tell us why 'someone's a great musician'.

I am able to tell you, I assure you. I'm just not going to waste any more of my time arguing why I may think that someone *isn't*, and I'm not about to spend any of my listening time, in which hundreds of millions of musicians throughout history compete for my ear on a band whom I am already quite certain I don't care about. I am not sure why my personal feelings about the band Tool are so important.

Fred Durst is calling you, Flux...

Ah yes, because we have such similar tastes and ideas about music, of course...

I think Mr. Durst actually would take great issue with my distaste for Tool, I've read that he's quite a fan of theirs...
 
 
moriarty
22:01 / 29.01.02
Ooh. I so very rarely enter the music forum, largely because I don't have "a solid grasp on the history of the artform that they are critiquing, as well an enthusiasm for the artform." Although I would like to point out that I don't personally think this excludes someone from forming an opinion on a piece of art. If it did, I'd say that judging by his grasp of comics history, Flux really shouldn't be posting in the comics forum.

On topic, I am one of those people who gives a shrug in the direction of Tool. I'm not really familiar with their work, and from what I've heard my first impression could be wrong. However, I have other musical pursuits to keep me busy, so I doubt I'll ever really delve into Toolsville. My loss.

I have encountered extreme Tool hatred before, though. I can't pin it down for sure, but I'd say it's likely one of two things, both of which apply to a number of bands. One, they aren't "alternative" enough for some people, whatever that means. And two, they are judged by the stereotypes of their fans. I've had to endure this one before, with friends of mine gasping in horror at my music collection and saying "But...but that's music for jocks!" Really open minded people.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:12 / 29.01.02
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
If it did, I'd say that judging by his grasp of comics history, Flux really shouldn't be posting in the comics forum.


Oh man, I'm soooo going to bite my tongue on this one...

I would like to note that the post being quoted was a response to a person who was suggesting that anyone who has not participated in the creation of something not being equiped to critique a work of art. And that the ideal I was setting forth was that of the ideal critic in terms of being a published journalist/academic/historian/archivist, and not a description of myself, or anyone else around here.


I really wish that I hadn't posted in this thread...

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Spec Bebop ]
 
 
[N.O.B.O.D.Y.]
02:20 / 30.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Spec Bebop:

I really wish that I hadn't posted in this thread...

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Spec Bebop ]

Hey, everybody makes mistakes, but you can learn from them: Do not argue with progressive rock fans!

quote:Originally posted by Steppin' Razer


C: Dear critics of everything,
Until you produce something on your own, shut the fuck up. Even then, take what you can from everything, EVERYTHING. Be it pop, obscure, Steinem, Hitler, Ayn Rand, or Grant Morrison. Everything has something to teach you. Everything.


Now that's a fascist and unfair statement, and sadly, one I've heard many times. Yes, you can learn from everything; even from the horrible stuff you can learn what not to do. But you can't shut the mouth of somebody just because they haven't produced work of their own. What you always can do is avoid reading criticism of people you know you can't trust, according to your personal tastes, but not to allow them an opinion? That would be going a bit far, I think.

And concerning personal taste, as I see it, criticism will never be free of the taint of the personal taste. It's very simple, were not talking about mathematics, physics or facts of life, where statements can be objective. Music and art in general is not only the work in itself but the way you perceive it, and that is and will always subjective. And criticism, by definition, cannot be devoid of personal opinion, if it was, it wouldn't be criticism anymore.

Now going back to the real topic, I'm with the guys who don't like Tool. I really don't know why there would be a massive outbreak of hate against them, I've never found anybody who really HATES them...I can tell you the main reason why I don't like them: I find their music boring. Maybe that's what Flux meant by saying "they have no tunes" There's nothing wrong with having no tunes, but there's no way music (and by the way any art form) can be good and at the same time boring.

A shot at why people might dislike the band: It might come from their close link to progressive rock, which has always been an easy target to bash, and mainly because of the huge hype around that last CD of them...Hype always brings enemies.
 
 
moriarty
02:41 / 30.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Spec Bebop:
And that the ideal I was setting forth was that of the ideal critic in terms of being a published journalist/academic/historian/archivist, and not a description of myself, or anyone else around here.[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Spec Bebop ]

OK, I didn't gather that from your post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I would like to elaborate (though this might just dig me deeper) and say that many of the people whose opinions I respect have little to no knowledge of the entire history of a certain artform, but they make up for it with enthusiasm and/or knowledge of a specific subset within an artform. Also, sometimes a little distance gives them the oppurtunity to skewer the icons within that artform.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
07:03 / 30.01.02
Storm of Blue would you mind if we open this topic up a bit?

Tool does seem to be one of those bands which causes strong reactions in people, often without them listening to the any of their music. This thread and a couple of others we've had on Tool in Barbelith have shown that.

But their seems to be a certain type of band which immediatly polarises opinions and normally sensible people start saying stupid things. I'm thinking of bands like Pink Floyd and New Model Army and I'm sure you can all think of examples as well. People seem to love or hate them.

Why is this? I've asked this before on the site and I can't remember who answered but it was suggested that their fans made life unpleasant for "normal music listening type folks" So what's the story? Rabid fans? Proselytising fans? Any ideas.

I like Tool, I don't play video games and I'm rarely angry unless I'm at work.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:21 / 30.01.02
I think the answer to that, and to questions Lothar (I think) poised as well, is that Tool's whole aesthetic clashes in some way with a set of aesthetics that certain other people have in quite a strong way. Specifically with Tool, I think one of the factors is that the band's name, and the titles of their records, immediately sounds like industrial or metal - so, people who instinctively come out in a rash when these genres are near, find it impossible to really take seriously. This includes me, although time spent in the Music forum has taught me to bite my tongue and think about why this is before launching into an attack on a band (unless they're someone really evil, like Limp Bizkit, Kula Shaker or Travis...). I mean, this thread isn't really asking "is there something wrong with Tool?", it's asking "why do certain bands inspire such polarised viewpoints?", which is a far more interesting question.

Perhaps one reason is that, as Jack details, Tool are interpreted by people who like them as being in some ways more... I don't know, subversive, radical, challenging? - than your average band. Basically qualities which a lot of people (especially here) would like to think that they possess. Now, take Radiohead, or the Manic Street Preachers, two bands who I either like or have liked... I cannot quite understand the amount of hostility aimed at these acts by otherwise apparently reasonable people, but I suspect it has a lot to do with the fact that their fans have made extremely grand claims for these bands on certain levels - levels which for some reason, if people don't agree that the band are doing these things or doing them well, will lead to very strong attacks. I'm thinking things like musical innovation, political commentary, strident non-conformity. For some reason, say "I like Band X - nice tunes" and people will shrug if they disagree, say "I like Band X - come to save us all!", and people who disagree will want to throttle you (or, if they are slightly more reasonable, Band X).

It's always easier to take the piss out of bands who are trying to be clever... I could lazily slip into "Oooh! 'Aenima'! Because, that's like, 'anima' crossed with 'enema'! See? See?", but by the same token, someone could say "Oooh! 'The Holy Bible'! Because, like, it's full of nasty stuff and profanity and Christians would hate it, but it's also really righteous! Clever!"

So, in other words, Tool are a target because some people think they Matter, and Bands Who Matter will always in the firing line. Which puts me in the funny position now of concluding that I have to concede quite a lot of respect for Tool and their fans, even though I also think that they are, respectively, Shit and Wrong.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
08:30 / 30.01.02
Fly boy are you suggesting that it's the fans fault that opinions are so polarised, because they put forward so strogly that these bands are special? And why particularly these bands? What's say different about say Pink Floyd or the Manics, than Public Enemy (in my experince I've never come across such polarisation with them) or the Beatles? Where does the idea of specialness come from? Is it statements from the bands that register on peoples bullshitometers?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:45 / 30.01.02
Well, I think "fault" is the wrong word - not trying to ascribe blame here. As far as the counter-examples you give are concerned, I've definitely encountered that kind of polarisation of opinion with The Beatles, or at least there are people who hate them somewhat irrationally, and other people who go on and on about them in a slightly fatuous way (I think there may be a thread about them hidden somewhere which demonstrates this). Public Enemy... bit different... however this kind of thing does happen with hip-hop as a whole (ie, there are people who don't just 'not care for' it, but actively hate it), although I suspect the process is slightly different there.

Statements by the bands might be part of it, sure, but I don't think it's necessary...

As to why these bands/genres? - I think it may be something to with the interaction of a fairly complex set of cultural signifiers, if that doesn't sound too wanky.

[ 30-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
  

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