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Rock 'n roll aint subversive

 
  

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No star here laces
12:53 / 21.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Cop Killer:
And also, when Elvis came out rock'n'roll in and of itself was subversive and the fact that it's not anymore really depresses me and leads me to believe that people just ain't trying anymore.


So this got me thinking. I've heard this time and time again, and it's one of those things you just accept as truth. but is it true? what the fuck was subversive about 1950s rock 'n roll?

It was all about consumption - all those hot rod lincolns or whatever. It was all about all-american heterosexual lurve. It was that fat fuck Bill Haley and boys in matching college sweaters. It was Eddie Cochrane working all summer.

And don't claim the sex element was subversive when it was expressed in such a whitebread manner. Plus casual sex without contraception = female enslavement, and there was no pill in the 50s.

Or is it cos it was 'black' music? Well the blues was infinitely blacker, yet none of those guys had any real mainstream success until a bunch of white boys started ripping off their styles in the 60s. And funny how it was all the white copyists like Elvis who got rich in the 50s and not the black innovators (with the notable exception of little Richard who gets extra props for also being gay).

Anyhoo, just a thought...
 
 
grant
13:12 / 21.01.02
"In the 1950s, doo wop was dangerous music." - Bob Lind, co-worker, former rock star.
 
 
grant
13:13 / 21.01.02
Rock and roll had black elements, but it was basically white trash music.
And "nice" kids listened to it, and started screaming like animals.

Terrifying.
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
14:15 / 21.01.02
Surely subversiveness can only be measured in terms of the viewpoint of the 'establishment' of the time, rather than by the opinions of a bunch of people from a far more decadent culture of 50 years hence? The stuff they did that seemed subversive then and doesn't now doesn't seem subversive precisely BECAUSE they subverted the moral values of the time, and in so doing brought about the moral values of our time, which, in turn will be subverted again. This question is only really valid if, when attempting to judge the moral values of 1950s youth, you do so from the perspective of 1940s adults.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:19 / 21.01.02
how about little richard?
 
 
No star here laces
14:26 / 21.01.02
Special slap upside the head to plums for not reading the initial post.

I guess the question hinges on the word 'subversive' which to me implies a) something more profound than 'scary to adults' and b) that something is being communicated in the subversion which is contrary to deeply held beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 1950s was a fervently conventional and capitalist society. Rock 'n Roll, at the time, was a very conventional form, in that it followed set musical rules, and was from the inception deeply capitalist.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:33 / 21.01.02
oops.

but for fuck's sake ly, can we have a bit of awareness of context here?

In what way is a black gay man standing up on stage making orgasm noises in the 50s 'whitebread'. Yeah it's coded, but was he meant to wearing a 'queer and here' T-shirt? And the fact of him getting up there and doing it, for audiences aware and unaware alike of some of the meanings, is a subversion to me?

Or that in 50s america a gay man being visibly sexual might have been a teensy bit more than 'scary to adults'

Or are you saying that sexual subversion is off-limits for this topic? Just let me know, eh?
 
 
Rev. Wright
14:38 / 21.01.02
Sex, drugs and rock 'n roll
 
 
No star here laces
14:40 / 21.01.02
Mmmm. Thass why I called him a 'notable exception' though.

Plus his songs are all, ostensibly, about girls so he's a bit subject to the Liberace effect, no?

I honestly don't really have an opinion on this one (yeah right) just thought it was an interesting assumption to question.

And we all know ASSUMPTION makes an ASS out of U and MPTION, don't we?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
14:57 / 21.01.02
my parents were 16 when elvis hit the scene. they remember it as an exciting time - kids breaking away from their parents, the whole creation of the teenager thing.... it might look tame/dodgy in hindsight, but it was a different world then.

someone i used to know was convinced that eddie cochrane, ricky valance, buddy holly were all killed, rather than died in tragic accidents. tho' there's a conspiracy theorist at every street corner.....
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
16:35 / 21.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:

I guess the question hinges on the word 'subversive' which to me implies a) something more profound than 'scary to adults' and b) that something is being communicated in the subversion which is contrary to deeply held beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 1950s was a fervently conventional and capitalist society. Rock 'n Roll, at the time, was a very conventional form, in that it followed set musical rules, and was from the inception deeply capitalist.


Yes, it followed rules strictly, but those rules were pretty different to those accepted by conventional society at the time. And also- why does subversive necessarily equal anti-capitalist? The obsession with cool cars and clothes and suchforth represented a major change in the nature of capitalism, or at least in the values it claimed to represent, and therefore, a change in the value system which the 'establishment' didn't get. Furthurmore, compared to the values of service to god and country and suchlike, an interest in (theoretically monogomous) heterosexual sex, even though quite tame by todays standards, was pretty subversive compared to the values of the time (no sex before marriage, etc). And even though, yes, i agree it was better for men than for women, it still represents a major change in attitude that the establishment didn't like.

Great link Will, I have a feeling it'll prompt me to spend half my evening reading chick tracts.....
 
 
Mystery Gypt
00:19 / 22.01.02
can you give an example of something you think IS subversive, so we have a measuring stick? or else the argument will be damned to a semantics of "well, that's not what i mean by subversive."

ithe culture -- the commercial one you refer to --- that sprang up around r'n't created, among other things, entire new demographics; most importantly, youth. before r'n'r, there was no such thing as youth subculture -- so if there has ever been a subversive youth subculture, it grew directly out of this shake up in the 50s. Similarly, there had never been a pop culture that wasn't purely monolithic -- the rise of rock based youth culture led to such a splintering of american culture that i'm not sure you could call it anything but subversive. the sudden spotlight on working class values, black linguistic structures, and anti-victorian forms of sexuality blew a circuit in the american consciousness so hard that there was a cultural civil war gaining momentum up until the 60s, when it full on opened up in the form of young peope telling old people that war was stupid. that's because of rock and roll.

if sex and drugs and crazy music aren't subversive, then why are these things always under attack from oppressive / repressive regimes? if the sexual subversiveness of rock n roll isn't value, then why it is the core value you criticise in it?
 
 
Cavatina
04:44 / 22.01.02
Posted by Lyra:

quote:It was all about consumption - all those hot rod lincolns or whatever. It was all about all-american heterosexual lurve. It was that fat fuck Bill Haley and boys in matching college sweaters. It was Eddie Cochrane working all summer.

And don't claim the sex element was subversive when it was expressed in such a whitebread manner. Plus casual sex without contraception = female enslavement, and there was no pill in the 50s.


True, true 'n true. It certainly all looks pretty tame compared with the identity politics of the last couple of decades.

But at the time, surely, it *was* the simple, blatant sexuality of ol' flash, axis hips Elvis - in contrast to the romantic, innocent sex appeal of the crooners Sinatra & Eddie Fisher - which was seen as revolutionary? Wasn't Elvis banned for obscenity - as 'morally insane' or something - in quite a few American cities? I mean the reported phenomenon of schoolgirls rioting, brawling, fainting, wetting themselves, masturbating and ripping the legs off their chairs in concert halls - such uninhibited behaviour - was previously unheard of.
 
 
The Monkey
05:02 / 22.01.02
Ms. Lovelace:

You're taking a rather narrow view of the development of music in the fifties, not to mention indulging in a radical degree of anachronism.
Everything I'm about to say is in some way roughly sketched out in the John Waters farce "Cry Baby," so feel free to skip the rest of this and just go rent it.
First, let's get some facts straight.
Number One, rock and rock IS the blues. While Led Zepplin and Jimi Hendrix are a bit latter- day for the purpose of this discussion, they're the most explicit examples of the promiscuity of the two conceptual frameworks. [PS motown, R&B, and rap are all descendants of the blues form as well]. Thus I'm going to use the blues as my overarching paradigm and term of reference, because RnR is simply a particularly large frond of its superstructure. I'm also going to stretch the timeline a bit.
Second, rock wasn't the magical subversive point that Behind The Music always makes it out to be, but it definitely pissed off a fairly large and [more importantly] vocal and influential portion of the population, and thus could be considered subversive. Rock didn't really innovate anything that hadn't been thoroughly covered by blues and hot jazz in the twenties. Talk about sexual liberation from the paradigm or marriage and chastity, talk about the flappers first...the structuring of race relations and the first fits of panic about cultural miscegenation, talk about the Harlem Renaissance and the speakeasys.
The blues have a longstanding tradition of being sexual and suggestive in a way that flew in the face of pretty much every Christian in America. Like to admit it or not, we were founded by some very up-tight Protestant denominations, and the bleed-over of Victorian thought across the pond didn't help matters. Songs like "Need a Little Sugar in my Bowl," and "Bedbug Blues" barely merit the term extended metaphor: indeed, the nominal concealment in some way increases the voluptousness of the suggestive imagery.
Long before Jerry Falwell got into his beef with rock 'n roll (by way of his cousin Jerry Lee Lewis), black preachers all across the South were raining hellfire and brimstone on members of their communities that spent their Saturdays at speakeasies and pigs.I refer you explicitly to "Aunt Hagar's Blues," written by W.C. Handy, the text of which explicitly deals with the conflict between blues-bar culture and Baptist church attendence.
Rock and roll just happened to come along, in a consumer fashion [in terms of radio stations, etc., picking up and promoting "rock artists] just in time to strike a huge, fat vein of newly-born conservatism...the white, suburban middle class, whose children were just sprouting into wee adolescents. Post-WWII is when the "middle class" was expanding grealy in number, and starting to define itself as something suburban, [rather than explicit definition as "city" or "country" people] with all of the incumbent gentrification, both in the consumption of material and moral goods. With this calcification came new forms of snobbery, mimicking the behaviors of the "rich" and the "hereditary gentry." One could almost speak of suburbanites attempting to "pass" as genteel folk, in a sense akin to racial "passing" as described by James Baldwin and other writers of the Harlem Renaissance...thus an almost overcompensating, obsessive attention to "proper" behavior and image projection: thus the boom of the intellectual commodity "What would the neighbors think?," and, by extension, "keeping up with the Joneses."
Race was also a stressful issue in this attempt to define the middle class. Blacks were poor and socially marginalized, and either came from highly rural or urban backgrounds--thus embodying pretty much everything that the developing middle class was trying to get away from. Falling into the same stigmatized categories would be immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe--considered the criminal reputations long held by the Italians, Spanish, Poles, etc., and, of course, Mexicans. Blues and rock, invented by poor, "ethnic" people, were thus taboo.
First blues, then "hot" jazz, and finally rock and roll, all put shivers up the spine of that segement of the population would consider themselves "proper," in the time period between about 1900 and the 1950s. All of the above were considered "wild" and "unrestrained" musical forms--and the governing philosophical paradigms of European-descended peoples values restraint over expression and rationality over passion.
[this further ties in with the race issue, consider that at the time, non-white "colored" people were classified as irrational and excessively emotional.]
Furthermore, the dance styles that accompanied the music were:
1) too vigorous to be considered refined or skilled, especially for females. Furthermore, that these caused exertion was horrifying...sweat is for manual laborers
2) the origin and derivation of these dance steps was from dubious "ethnic" communities...Mexican and Spanish influences, African-American folk-dance, the "baudier" dance-trends to come out of France and Italy (such as the can-can, etc.).
3) the steps and movements of this dances were explicitly or implicitly sexual...the pelvic thrusting, etc.,etc., which was the ultimate taboo, again, especially for young females. A great part of the social projection of gentrification and sophistication lay in the maintenance of an image of chastity and demureness in young (pre-marriage) females. Rock 'n roll and its incumbent activities were thus considered
Even the mainstream African-American community of the time also rejected RnR and jazz music and dance on the basis of these qualifiers, seeing the entire trend as reinforcing negative stereotypes about the Negro.

What made rock innovative as a cultural moment was, as Mystery Gypt pointed out, the invention of "youth" as a demographic of consumption...the foundations of ideas that we take for granted now, like "adolescent rebellion" and "the generation gap."
And here's the irony: rock and roll invented/commoditized the mainstream concept of youthful subversion of authority--an idea previously bounded largely to intellectual institution and a very limited segement of the population. In a way, your question is the lineal kin of cultural developments generated five decades ago that you're now flaming. Go figure.

So. What more do you want?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:15 / 22.01.02
phew!

welcome to barbelith, infinite monkeys....
 
 
The Monkey
05:30 / 22.01.02
ta very much, SFD.
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:43 / 22.01.02
Amused by:

Lyra's capacity to annoy people for our amusement;

Various people's tendency to argue with him by repeating his argument (i.e., Lyra says rocknroll was all about consumption, people disagree, saying it invented youth consumption);

Sweeping generalisations (i.e., rap derived from the blues, rocknroll responsible for anti-Vietnam War protests - the latter extraordinarily simplistic, verging on racist in ignoring the influence of Black Panthers and civil rights movements on the 60s new left...).

I don't like rocknroll, but I'll rock your soul... etc.
 
 
rizla mission
13:08 / 22.01.02
Why was rock n' roll subversive?

Well .. fucking listen to it .. it's not anything to do with ideology/cultural context that makes it subversive, obviously you can rip that to shreds. It's the ENERGY and the RACKET and THE BEAT, which sound lightyears ahead of the previous generation's mainstream music in a way that nothing has since ('cept maybe dance music).

(yeah, I know Jazz & Blues did it all first, but 14 year old white kids in the middle of nowhere didn't get to listen to that, did they)

Basically rock n' roll's subversiveness lies in the fact that IT ROCKS - it's loud and primitive and aggresive and rebellious and crazy.
 
 
grant
14:27 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:
Rock 'n Roll, at the time, was a very conventional form, in that it followed set musical rules, and was from the inception deeply capitalist.


Two refutations:

On capitalism - it never set out as an economic subversion, but as a social one. Race, gender, religion and sexuality were all turned on their collective ear by these hoodlums with greasy hair and swinging hips.

On conventional form - "A wop bop a loo bop, a wop bam boom!"
 
 
grant
14:50 / 22.01.02
As a note to the stuff on jazz and blues: that was played in juke joints and jazz parlors; that is, unlicensed bars and houses of prostitution. Jazz, particularly, was especially alive during Prohibition, where people would go to listen to the music (with the verboten syncopated beat) and take in a few illegal drugs.
See Mezz Mezzrow's Really The Blues... excerpted here:

quoten the Mezz: Their view of African-American culture involved fantasies of escape from the pressure to work, from sexual restraint, from convention. The "white Negroes" of the 1920s projected their own desires onto black Americans, most frequently through music.

Milton "Mezz" Mezzrow grew up in a middle-class Jewish-American family in Chicago. A rebellious adolescent, he went to reform school at sixteen for car theft. There, in 1916, he heard African-American music for the first time. The singing of African-American inmates, he recalled in his autobiography Really the Blues, "hit me like a millennium would hit a philosopher." Released from reform school, he began learning to play jazz clarinet by listening to the earliest recordings of Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, and Joe "King" Oliver. A mediocre musician at best, he made his reputation in Harlem as primarily as Louis Armstrong's marijuana connection--in the forties, the word "mezzrow" or "mezzerole" came to refer to a particularly fat marijuana cigarette. Eventually, after years of living in Harlem, he came to regard himself as actually having become an African American. When the draft board listed him as "negro" in World War II, he was delighted. In the two selections from Mezzrow's autobiography included here, we can see his ambiguous relation to black culture, the ways he mixed genuine admiration with crude stereotypes.

For Mezzrow, jazz was always about rebellion, a rejection of middle class respectability ­ those "chumps who have to rise and shine each morning, slaves to the alarm clock." A creative musician, he wrote, "was an anarchist with a horn." But paradoxically, for black Americans musicianship was as often a badge of middle class success and respectability.

by the Mezz:Man, I was gone with it‹inspiration's mammy was with me. And to top it all, I walked down Madison Street one day and what I heard made me think my ears were lying. Bessie Smith was shouting the Downbearted Blues from a record in a music shop. I flew in and bought up every record they had by the mother of the blues‹Cemetery Blues, Bleedin' Hearted, and Midnight Blues‹ then I ran home and listened to them for hours on the victrola. I was put in a trance by Bessie's moanful stories and the patterns of true harmony in the piano background, full of little runs that crawled up and down my spine like mice. Every note that woman wailed vibrated on the tight strings of my nervous system; every word she sang answered a question I was asking. You couldn't drag me away from that victrola, not even to eat.

What knocked me out most on those records was the slurring and division of words to fit the musical pattern, the way the words were put to work for the music. I tried to write them down because I figured the only way to dig Bessie's unique phrasing was to get the words down exactly as she sang them. It was something I had to do; there was a great secret buried in that woman's genius that I had to get. After every few words I'd stop the record to write the Iyrics down, so my dad made a suggestion. Why didn't I ask my sister Helen to take down the words in shorthand? She was doing secretarial work and I figured it would be a cinch for her.

If my sister had made a table-pad out of my best record or used my old horn for a garbage can she couldn't have made me hotter than she did that day. I've never been so steamed up, before or since. She was in a very proper and dicty mood, so she kept "correcting" Bessie's grammar, straightening out her words and putting them in "good" English until they sounded like some stuck-up jive from McGuffy's Reader instead of the real down-to-earth language of the blues. That girl was schooled so good, she wouldn't admit there was such a word as "ain't" in the English language, even if a hundred million Americans yelled it in her face every hour of the day. I've never felt friendly towards her to this day, on account of how she laid her fancy high-school airs on the immortal Bessie Smith.


Now what the early rock-and-rollers did was take this sensibility and release it into the dominant culture like a virus.

Satchmo did it, Beiderbecke did it, hell, even Benny Goodman did it... but Elvis did it dirty.
 
 
The Monkey
18:28 / 22.01.02
Fair play to both my detractors and people who made my point more concisely and clearly than I, espe Grant. It was my first post, I'm bloody lonely, and I tend to be overenthusiatic anyway.
Two points of annoyance though:
1) Dread Pirate Crunchy -- love the name, but don't ever insinuate I'm a racist again without a whole lot better evidence. There is no inherent bias to my claim about modern musical STRUCTURE and its derivation, as opposed to its SOCIO-CULTURAL COORDINATES, which are far far more expansive BUT WERE NOT PART OF MY FUCKING POINT IN THAT PARAGRAPH.
READ the paragraph in which I mention that TINY BRACKETED STATEMENT and note that I refer to "blues form," explicitly defined as the mechanical structure of both lyricism and instrumental arrangement characteristic of blues.
That bloody post was long enough without attempting to flesh out the interaction between the African-American community and popular entertainment and performes within the latter.
2) Also directed at the Dread Pirate: Grow up and realize that an argument is not necesssarily the assumption of an antipolar, equal-but-opposite position from the original thought. Then go look up the word "Manichean," followed by the phrase "false dichotomy."
My point was not to pick a fight with Lyra, but to point out some nuances of the situation. Admittedly, I'm a smug bastard sometimes, and I'll try to be less so in future.
 
 
Cop Killer
18:31 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:

Or is it cos it was 'black' music? Well the blues was infinitely blacker, yet none of those guys had any real mainstream success until a bunch of white boys started ripping off their styles in the 60s. And funny how it was all the white copyists like Elvis who got rich in the 50s and not the black innovators (with the notable exception of little Richard who gets extra props for also being gay).

Anyhoo, just a thought...


Why is Elvis a "white copyist" and Little Richard a "black innovator"? Are you saying that if you were white and played rock'n'roll you were just a copycat, but if black, you were an innovator? And the problem wasn't the black music, the problem was white kids listening to/playing black music; when it was just blacks listening to black music, no one was bothered, but once white kids started in on it that's when the panic struck because back then race relations weren't anywhere near as good as they are now (and that does say a whole hell of a lot on how bad race relations where).

Lyra, you claim that r'n'r ain't subversive because it was all about consumerism. Maybe it was, to a certain degree, on the mainstream level, but then again, disco had the same mainstream image, if not far worse in some respects, but you've argued that you have to look underground with disco, you can't buy into the mainstream pap. Ever think the same could be true for rock'n'roll?
 
 
Jackie Susann
19:57 / 22.01.02
God, [im], I just said I was 'amused'. I wasn't having a go at anyone... except maybe (gently) Mystery Gypt who the 'verging on racist' (which is, to me, massively different from insinuating someone is racist) was actually directed at.

And saying rap is derived from blues without qualifying it is still a huge generalisation, not to mention simplification, regardless of the difference between STRUCTURE and SOCIO-CULTURAL COORDINATES...
 
 
The Monkey
22:16 / 22.01.02
Dear Crunchy,

Admittedly, I'm irritable and defensive right now. Recent heartbreak and whatnot.

Point(s) taken, no harm done to my meat- or fiction-suit, please forgive causticity of prior remarks...I am a wee bit of a bitch.

Regards,

[infinite monkeys, minus one or two who went off in a huff]
 
 
Mystery Gypt
00:03 / 23.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:
rocknroll responsible for anti-Vietnam War protests - the latter extraordinarily simplistic, verging on racist in ignoring the influence of Black Panthers and civil rights movements on the 60s new left...).


that's a fucking generalization and misreading if i ever saw one. what i said was that r'n'r, with its working class / black values contributed to what happened in american culture that LED to the mainstreaming of radicalism in the 60s -- including the black panthers, the civil rights movement, the vietnman protests and the renewed interest in socialism, magic, etc. fuck, rock'nroll was obviously an influence on the black panthers, for christ's sake.

actually, your post is so fuckwitted i can't even fathom what you meant by it.

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Mystery Gypt ]
 
 
Mystery Gypt
00:30 / 23.01.02
some books on the subject:

dick hebdidge's awesome marxist reading on the rise of youth subculture in the rnr days

essays about race, culture, rock, socialism from the founder of cultural studies

i'm sure you're already familiar with Griel Marcus' Lipstick Traces, a key text in understanding rock and subversion

and more "cultural studies" from a man obsessed with rock


i wrap this up with a "your question is way too fucking simplistic" quote from stuart hall himself:

quote:


The role of the 'popular' in popular culture is to fix the authenticity of popular forms, rooting them in the experiences of popular communities from which they draw their strength, allowing us to see them as expressive of a particular subordinate social life that resists its being constantly made over as low and outside...However, as popular culture has historically become the dominant form of global culture, so it is at the same time the scene, par excellence, of commodification, of the industries where culture enters directly into the circuits of a dominant technology -- the circuits of power and capital. -- Stuart Hall, p.469 "What is this 'black' in black popular culture?" in Stuart Hall: critical dialogues in cultural studies. (eds.) David Morley and Chen Kuan-Hsing. Routledge, 1996.
 
 
Fist Fun
04:56 / 23.01.02
quote:97.5 per cent of all great British pop records have been created by individuals dreaming their teenage years away in fuggy box bedrooms on council estates. From Billy Fury all the way through to Sporty Spice - council house box bedrooms. Being stuck in a public school dormitory waiting for your weekly fix of the NME somehow doesn't do the trick."
Bill Drummond
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:17 / 23.01.02
Drummond's theory is a nice idea, and it's one I've heard dredged up many times by people who want their taste in music and their politics to be able to fit together neatly with no contradictions or complications. Sadly, it doesn't really hold water. Like it or not, there have been many talented people from middle class or affluent backgrounds in the history of rock'n'roll and pop. The Rolling Stones, anyone?
 
 
grant
13:51 / 23.01.02
Stewart Copeland had to have been well off as a kid.

Then again, so was the Marquis de Sade.
 
 
rizla mission
13:56 / 23.01.02
Well any theory claiming musical innovation is exclusive to one class is bound to be dead on it's feet, just as it would be with race or gender. stoopid idea.
 
 
No star here laces
21:08 / 23.01.02
Cheers, bunch of good answers, particular kudos to the infinite monkeys for knowing their shit.

I want to take issue with whoever it was who said that rnr was subversive because it identified the 'youth' subculture for the first time.

This is why I see it as an establishment form. Our society is a 'society of control' i.e. it maintains the status quo by channelling discontent away into little corners where it poses no threat, not by clamping down on it with an iron fist.

To me, youth culture, is one such mechanism for maintaining the status quo. Instead of the energy and discontent of youth being vented in ways which cause real change in society, youth culture dissipates it in a miasma of drugs, music and demographically targeted consumer goods. Why cause change when you can buy the anarchy t-shirt instead? Sure, have a bit more sex and then have to settle down and raise the kids, that'll threaten the established order. Disappear off into a fantasy world of conspiracy theories and hallucinogens - bet the government are real fuckin scared now.

Understand I'm not meaning to draw a comparison with other subcultures like hip hop or somesuch - I'm asking whether the whole edifice isn't really a clever trick which provides the illusion of rebellion and subversion without any of the content.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
21:57 / 23.01.02
quote:Originally posted by [infinite monkeys]:
Then go look up the word "Manichean,"



Although you may want to look it up under "Manichaean".

Tchah. Americans.

(Sorry, just love watching the veins in people's foreheads jump)
 
 
The Planet of Sound
10:22 / 24.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:
[QB]Disappear off into a fantasy world of conspiracy theories and hallucinogens - bet the government are real fuckin scared now.

QB]



Well, the point is the authorities always have been scared of just that: look at the attempts to break the Stones in the sixties ('butterflies upon wheels') and ensuing uproar. The media attack on rave culture/acid house parties and ensuing Criminal Justice Act. The scandal of 'God Save the Queen' in Jubilee week 77, with the record banned. Going way back, the Christian Church's attempt to absorb or destroy pagan rites; what's more rock and roll than taking magic mushrooms, drinking cider and dancing around a giant cock (maypole dancing, American cousins; please see The Wicker Man for reference)?

Dance, dissent, drugs, drink, youth; these are timeless aspects of the human condition, and have existed to greater or lesser extents since the dawn of time. How much they are tolerated all depends on how repressive and twisted the particular society has become. 'Rock and roll', as a term, just seems to be the Twentieth Century's way of expressing these human traits in another cooler, voice.

Another avatar of 'swing', 'jazz', 'rave',
'bop', 'party', 'saturnalia', etc etc.

(Incidentally, the first 'raves' were organised by flappers, Bright Young Things in the 1920s in England, fueled by champagne and cocaine rather than 'E'. I'd recommend a read of Evelyn Waugh's 'Vile Bodies'.)

Who cares about how politically ignorant rock'n'rollers were in the 50s? They didn't have the same access to education or even brain enhancing diet we have. Our grandchildren may see us as hopeless squares, or possibly decadent libertarians; there's no way of predicting how uptight or otherwise society may become in the next 100 years.
The important thing is that...(Fluff Freeman voice)... they rocked!
 
 
No star here laces
11:12 / 24.01.02
One could argue that these were half-hearted diversionary tactics.

Media attention on the 'raves' aspect of the CJA took attention away from the fact that it also criminalised many legitimate forms of political protest, to name but one example.

As you pointed out drink, drugs and dancing have always been part of society, but it was possibly only the 20th century that took them and decided they were for youth alone.

Why might that be?
 
 
The Planet of Sound
11:39 / 24.01.02
what were half-hearted diversionary tactics? I don't follow.

I think that the association of 'youth' with underground culture is largely a product of ignorant market analysis in the 80s/90s. Look at the sixties: the swingiest films star Peter Sellers (40+). Sixties counter-culture was never about youth, despite what commentators (mostly writng from a position of youth-nostalgia) would say today. Tim Learey, Ken Kesey... etc. Even in the 50s, the bigger idol was Marlon Brando, not James Dean, who was hardly a spring chicken.
I don't see 'rock'n'roll' subversion as being in any way linked with political subversion; they are two separate fields, and it's usually the conservatives who muddle the two. Karl Marx, Little Richard = not much in common.
 
  

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