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Aaliyah

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Regrettable Juvenilia

12:35 / 21.01.02

So, is it me, or was 'More Than A Woman' the best number one we've had in the UK for a long, long time? Squelchy Timbaland beats, soaring urgent diagonal chorus, the same glacial tension that has characterised some of the best recent R&B... and a mad video with Aaliyah dolled up like an Elvis impersonator and dancing inside an animated motorbike engine.

And now it's been knocked off the top of the charts by... 'My Sweet Lord'.

The Breath-taking Sound of the Future: 0
The Cloying Stench of the Past: 1.

Now that's tragedy.

12:51 / 21.01.02

I dunno, musical tastes aside, the cynical part of me sees a certain reason common to both these singles topping the charts...

DBC

No star here laces

12:55 / 21.01.02

I think if they wanted to cynically cash in on her tragic death they might have released the record a little closer to the actual event, what with people's attention spans being what they are.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:59 / 21.01.02

Indeed - Aaliyah's album was always going to come out when it did. So the single, too, was always scheduled for release around this time (something one can tell from the fact that the video had already been shot). And would probably still have reached the top the anyway, as I think the last few Aaliyah singles did.

'My Sweet Lord', on the other hand...

P.S. Has anyone else heard the remix of 'Try Again' that has Erick Sermon and Ja Rule on it? It is a thing of absolute and total wonderment. This is clearly the only thing Ja Rule is good for: being inappropriately rough and unruly on R&B records...

[ 21-01-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

09:59 / 22.01.02

My Sweet Lord's a bloody great song.
But not as great as George's version of 'I've got my mind set on you.'!
Shows what you know! Tuh!

A

09:59 / 22.01.02

So, Aaliyah performed the title role in the soon-to-be-released movie version of Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles novel "Queen of the Damned", right?

I don't even really know who she is (apart from some dead r'n'b star), so is this a good thig or not?

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:59 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by BizCo:
But not as great as George's version of 'I've got my mind set on you.'!
Shows what you know! Tuh!I must give wild applause to the filmclip's singing moose. I really must.

The Natural Way

09:59 / 22.01.02

Yeah, I really like My Sweet Lord, too. It's an odd tune - a chant, for God's sake. How often does a Krishna chant penetrate the top ten? It's the sentimentality, not the tune, that's rank.

09:59 / 22.01.02

Speaking as a huge Aaliyah fan, I have to say 'More than a Woman' isn't especially great. It's not as good as Rock the Boat, the current single in Australia (and the US, I think), and like the other Timbaland tracks on that album, suffers from sounding like he just bundled together the best ideas he'd had while working on other stuff, but which were no longer excitingly novel (n.b., even bad Timbaland is better than good most other things, but after the incredibly innovative One in a Million, the s/t set is a big disappointment on that front).

Anyway, Aaliyah (the album, not the artist) was pretty disappointing relative to what I was hoping for, but still really good - in my top ten for last year. None of the songs (except maybe Try Again) are obvious singles, but they work well all together as a set.

I guess this isn't very relevant to the topic but I couldn't help replying to an 'aaliyah' thread - "some r&b singer", tsk! She was also the female lead in Romeo Must Die, and my dad got to speak to her when he was an extra on Queen of the Damned -- although he can't remember what he or she said, aargh.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

09:59 / 22.01.02

quote:Originally posted by count adam, part 2:
I don't even really know who she is (apart from some dead r'n'b star), so is this a good thig or not?

Well, all the stuff I've seen is that QotD is BAD Goth and will suck enormously. Yet I've also heard that they've got Aaliyah's brother to help them finish off some of her stuff, which sounds interesting.

It'll probably straight-to-video anyway...

09:59 / 22.01.02

Flyboy:
"...soaring urgent diagonal chorus..."

Hang on - whassa diagonal chorus?

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:59 / 22.01.02

I'd need one of your diagrams to explain, Saveloy. But picture the chorus of Marvin Gaye's 'What's Going On?' as a series of small semi-circular loops, and the chorus of Radiohead's 'Street Spirit' as a very thin horizontal straight line, and this may help.

Alternatively, I am talking utter muso nonsensetripe.

09:59 / 22.01.02

i don't like the idea of having to be 'more than a woman'. isn't just being a woman full stop enough for you? is being a woman full stop all that bad?
thats all i think when i hear the song..i'm trying to get over it.
i don't think george harrison being number one is a tragedy at all. i think it's perfect.

09:59 / 22.01.02

suds - i thought it was just me that felt irritated by that!

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:59 / 22.01.02

Hmmm. I kind of take it as being in the sense of "not limited to your/society's expectations or ideas about my gender". However, if that sounds like reaching, I may need to call for back-up...

09:59 / 22.01.02

oh come on, it's not like she's bagging womanhood. the song is basically about how the guy isn't good enough, couldn't handle her, because she'd be 'more than a lover, more than a woman, more than enough for you' - and there's the refrain, 'i don't think you're ready for this thing.' basically, like a bunch of her songs, it's about lousy, immature guys. the point is that the guy wants *just* a woman, *just* a lover, and she isn't going to be that for him -- a feminist-y refusal to be defined solely by her gender? or am i rationalising?

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:59 / 22.01.02

Ah, now that's back-up...

There's probably a really interesting separate discussion to be spun off here about the merits and limitations of female pop/R&B singers as feminist, uh... icons? role models? I don't really like either of those terms... but hopefully you know what I mean.

I'm reminded of a Le Tigre interview I heard on NPR, wherein Kathleen Hanna was asked about the Spice Girls and basically said (paraphrasing), obviously it's not my thing, but if a 9 year-old girl listens to them and gets something genuine and empowering out of the whole 'girl power' thing, that's great. Oh, and either her or Jo also pointed out that really, 9 year-olds probably shouldn't be listening to, say, Bikini Kill...

10:35 / 22.01.02

Dread Pirate Crunchy, ha! i'm not so sure. i'd really like to hear jay-z or dr. dre rappin about being more than a man. i'd like to hear the strokes singing about how they're more than just men.
i don't think i've ever heard anything of the sort before.
has any man sung or rapped bout being more than a man? i doubt it.
BUT send me proof and i'll shut up.

[ 22-01-2002: Message edited by: suds ]

Matthew Fluxington

12:42 / 22.01.02

um, did you hear The Blueprint? I think nearly every song on that LP is an argument that Jay-Z is more man than anyone else... he calls himself JayHova!

The whole 'you're not good enough for me, all you men are dogs, I am a perfect flawless queen' theme has been all over mainstream r+b for the past several years...a lot of bitterness and anger tempered by rampant egomania. I'd want to say that it's empowering, but it kinda steps a little far into the self-absorbed megalomania area for my tastes...

Still, some great Destiny's Child songs have been penned because of this.

autopilot disengaged

15:38 / 22.01.02

i have nothing to say except ...i really liked aaliyah.

18:52 / 22.01.02

on the album, more than a woman comes between two other songs which, while admittedly not revolutionary, fall well within the ambit of - pretentious much? - post-spice pop-feminism: 'rock the boat', in which she gives sex tips to lousy lovers everywhere, and the self-conscious 'i have thematic range' anti-domestic violence number, 'never no more'. i think this is a point in favour of a generous interpretation of the title (which the lyrics also support, i just had a listen which confirmed what i thought...)

EXAM QUESTIONS

if the line 'more than a woman' is a problem, what does 'more than a lover' (the next line) mean? do you think she's promising domestic services or something?,

OR,

as a point of comparison, how about instead of 'what guy ever rapped he was more than a man' (see also flux's answer), that ginuwine song about how nowadays he just stays home with his girl, which is basically about the prioritising of a feminised space/relationship (their home) over phallic, homosocial relations - i.e., he gives up his macho image to sit around giving his girl head - how does that relate to aaliyah's claim to be 'more than a woman'? in your answer consider at least two of the following: the roles of women in contemporary r'n'b (either/both as singer-personas or subjects), the author-function in pop music (which often presumes the singer didn't write the words s/he is singing), the tendency of white audiences to criticise black music for its sexism, audience reception theory, deleuzian models of 'revolutionary becoming-woman' and/or the irigarayan 'sex which is not one'...

i am sorry, it's inevitable that i will respond defensively and at length to any vaguely derogatory comment about the most exalted one, but i welcome argument...

No star here laces

16:45 / 23.01.02

I might also point out that the dominant mode of expression of white female 'feminist' artists is anger/outrage, which is at least as limiting in terms of conveying all of what it means to be female as the 'goddess' archetype you get in R&B. We're a long way from Phil Spector and 'He hit me and it felt like a kiss' now, peeps...

06:02 / 24.01.02

lyra, i think yr over-generalizing here. there are so many white goddamn "'goddess' archetype [s] you get in R&B." (tori, sinead, yoni etc). there are also a lot of angry black female musicians. please try not to over-simplify. it's bad enough that there are always 'best of women' albums, generalising us all into one, pretty little box, thanks. i get what yr saying, however, as it must seem to be the case from the outside, especially if yr not down on a lot of underground female artists.
i don't think it's worthy to say that we are a long way from 'he hit me and it felt like a kiss'. hole covered it last year on celebrity skin. was it a feminist cover? i don't fucking know, ask courtney love.
i don't have time to really think all that has been said in here, because i have a meeting in 5, but what i do want to say is that the amount of derision i got in this thread just for one comment bout the idea of being more than a woman really, really pisses me off.
i am very cross i can't finish off this post yet. sorry if it makes no sense, but i'm in a hurry. i'll be back soon.

Regrettable Juvenilia

06:24 / 24.01.02

Hey suds - don't get too pissed off, huh? Not least of all because I tend to agree with most of the stuff you say in this forum... But I honestly don't see any derision in the above posts - just disagreement.

11:42 / 24.01.02

- "if the line 'more than a woman' is a problem, what does 'more than a lover' (the next line) mean? do you think she's promising domestic services or something?" dread pirate crunchy

i have a particular problem w/ the idea that it's not enough in our society just to be a woman. it's strange because to define a woman is harder than i once thought. many feminists either embrace being a woman, w/ intentions to reclaim ideas and notions of femininity of their own. others believe that notions of womanhood are demanding and negative, and that people shouldn't be put into two seperate boxes. what i was saying in my previous posts is that this idea is not usually affiliated w/ the idea of being a man or being manly. and i have yet to hear a man saying that he's more than a man. i'm serious. the whole concept of being more than a woman really does my head in, and i think about it often. so, dread pirate crunchy, yr not rationalising per se when you suggest that the words are "a feminist-y refusal to be defined solely by her gender?". what i was questioning is why women (mainly) feel the need to do so in their lives. and yeah, this is what i thin of every time i hear the record. i'm a dork.

you also point out "that ginuwine song about how nowadays he just stays home with his girl", which sounds fine and dandy w/ me, but at the same time i'm unsure he's questioning his geneder role in regards to society at large! it seems like he's just a well-adjusted human being.

sorry if i went off on one earlier this morning, today has not been cool or fun and i just wanted to apologise. this debate is of much interest to me.

No star here laces

12:38 / 24.01.02

suds,

I'll point out, if it wasn't explicit enough in my post, that I'm absolutely deliberately over-generalising.

I listen to lots of R&B and no punky feministy stuff (at least not since enduring lots of bikini kill records in the hope of a shag back in 93 or so). From my perspective, Sleater-Kinney, Le Tigre et al are just doing more of the shouty, tuneless incoherent crap that I hated back when Huggy Bear and Voodoo Dolls were doing it.

And that's clearly a sweeping, inconsidered and generally wrong statement. Lots of people I respect like this stuff, so there must be something in it.

But it's a rhetorical gesture for me to say this, which highlights, I hope, that maybe people don't think to look in R&B for any sort of profundity or significance, or any pro-female messages, because they make assumptions about the style which say that it couldn't possibly be any of those things. In much the same way that I make assumptions about whatever Kathleen Hanna is up to these days - i.e. that it will be tuneless, dour-faced and devoid of any fun whatsoever.

I just meant that maybe if you were to approach R&B with a positive mindset and look for good things in it, then maybe you might find them...

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:45 / 24.01.02

To which the obvious answer would be, "You first, you woefully musically prejudiced young cocker".

12:46 / 24.01.02

lyra, i love the fact that you said you listened to bikini kill in the early nineties in the hope of getting laid. man, thats honest. i know countless boys who do just that and they've never admitted it. that really is very cool of you.
ok, so sleater-kinney and le tigre are actually pretty different. le tigre make electronic music, while sleater kinney concentrate more on guitars. and you know i was just saying in the love songs thread that sleater-kinney make the most beautiful love songs. as well as shouty songs. i really want to make you a tape now!
(oh yeah, and kathleen hanna is now in le tigre, as well as doing a lot of writing. and i don't think she's as angry as she was when she was in bikini kill, but she's just as political).
i like a lot of rnb. i just don't like music that's sexist. i can't. i feel like it's directed right at me. sorry, i know i'm not in therapy right now or anything. i'll shut up.
oh, and i don't think the aaliyah song is sexist. i think i should point that out while i'm here. it's just i get pissed when women seem to think that they have to be 'more than a woman'. bah. see my previos post.

No star here laces

12:53 / 24.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
To which the obvious answer would be, "You first, you woefully musically prejudiced young cocker".

yes, but you don't seem to understand that I am right and they are wrong and therefore I don't have to do anything.

Actually, I think I might replace all my posts in the music forum with the above in future, it would save so much time...

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:57 / 24.01.02

I listen to Bikini Kill and Le Tigre in the hope of getting laid. But only in the hope of getting laid with Kathleen Hanna.

I'll shut up now.

12:59 / 24.01.02

gross!

No star here laces

13:09 / 24.01.02

Her whole life has been a waste due to never finding a collaborator called 'Barbera' or making use of this obvious and witty pun in any way.

Tchoh.

13:18 / 24.01.02

oh yeah and...
there's nothing wrong w/ girls making angry music. in fact, i think it's a very positive thing to do. i know most people would prefer us all to starve ourselves or just go shopping all the time or whatever, and for a girl to express her anger against the patriarchy is a very cool, very brave thing to be doing.
kathleen hanna has inspired a whole bunch of girls to start playing guitar and make zines. i know you were taking the piss when you said her's lifes been wasted, but i thought i'd make that point nevertheless.
ok, i'm done.

Matthew Fluxington

13:28 / 24.01.02

I'll just chime in with a 'Sleater-Kinney have some of the best melodies in pop music today' and follow it up with a 'they have a really weird sense of harmony that is really quite interesting'.

I'll throw in a 'suds is awesome' and a 'hey Lyra, I'm confused...what part of the planet are you from?' for good measure...

No star here laces

13:35 / 24.01.02

I definitely agree with you there suds.

My problem is more that when you say 'all girl band' or 'feminist band' the first assumption your average punter will make will be that it will be angry, shouty stuff.

Which to me is wrong. If you forever identify yourself as the oppressed underdog, then that's what you'll always be. I would think that women ought to be able to offer so much more, musically, than just anger.

RnB is about the only musical style that is actually dominated by women. I personally think that makes it hugely important. Even more significantly it has huge emotional range - it covers angry, sad, bitter, lovestruck, joyous and triumphant. And not only is this music made by women, but it's music bought by women. In huge quantities. So I guess it must be saying something that makes sense, at some level, no?

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