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The future of Barbelith Membership...

  
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
Persephone
12:41 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Persephone: I'd actually disagree: I think the 'take personal responsibility/just ignore them' thing has been debated black and blue, and is unlikely to progress any further without at least experimenting with changes in the structure of the place ie. the almost-implemented Ignore function.

No no no, I specifically did not say to hold up *any* experimentation whilst we do self-help. Forward with experiments.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:43 / 15.03.02
Lick my Plums, Bitch, tribunum plebis.

I like it. And it's a career, after a fashion, so you'll be allowed in. Although, since the rest of the great unwashed will be excluded, you won't have anyone to represent...

Persephone - I think that proposal was half-seriosu at least - it would serve to provide breaks from posting. Obviously, it would be infuriating if, say, I was on hiatus and a big thread on the Areopagitae (if you'll excuse the pun) cropped up, but it has something to recommend it.

I'm increasingly seduced by the idea of the ostracism, because it would be a way to get people to sit back and take a breath at the time when a majority thought it woudl do them good. Although the system would become corrupt in seconds
 
 
Ganesh
12:44 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Persephone:
No no no, I specifically did not say to hold up *any* experimentation whilst we do self-help.

What I was disagreeing with, really, was the implication that 'take personal responsibility for ignoring them' hadn't been fully debated and attempted before now. I think that strategy can only work in tandem with an Ignore button.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:44 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:


Lend us thirty quid, guv?



*tugs forelock*

certainly, my good man. If you could just sign this sickness certificate first ...

(to think that I was told he was selling favours I thought of something else)
 
 
I, Libertine
12:48 / 15.03.02
I've been looking at these BARBELITH INVADED! threads for a few days now, and it already seems mighty cliquey in here. Lots of individuals being singled out, lots of exclusionary/elitist talk.

I don't really have a solution for the troll thing--they do tend to spring up from beneath the cyberbridge demanding their fee--but the tone seems a bit stuffy to me.

On the internet, trolls will be trolls. Moderation and Administration of a message board is not without its risks, as Tom has proven. Many seem to be proposing a Utopian community--I think you'll end up with dystopia. Best idea I've heard is the Ignore button, and when enough people Ignore you, you're gone.

And you know--I can't really put my finger on what's so unsettling about this thread. I just hope it doesn't spread. Perhaps I'm not cut out for Membership and its attendant Privileges...

Never has a Graemlin been more appropriate:
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:51 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:
Although, since the rest of the great unwashed will be excluded, you won't have anyone to represent...

I think, sir, you'll find I've already dealt with that point. Honestly, these creative/professional types, ain't got the brains they was born with...


I think that the 'week holiday' thing would work much better as a random/taking turns feature, voting for it could way too easily be abused. Just imagine a board without Haus for ooh, weeks...

And can we please try out the 'ignore' thing. Maybe a trial period for each of the various features people have mentioned here, think offering 'stages' of membership where you get access to more and more of the board gradually might be worth trying on these grounds.

Althoough, I'm also a bit dubious about the 'proving yourself' mentality that hovers around these measures...
 
 
Ganesh
12:51 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:
I'm increasingly seduced by the idea of the ostracism, because it would be a way to get people to sit back and take a breath at the time when a majority thought it woudl do them good.

A petit mort - I like it. And, if I could thread-rot for a moment, it reminds me of the funniest thing I've heard in the last week, a second-hand account of the bedside manner of one of London's vascular surgeons:

<breezes in>

Surgeon: (rather abruptly) "I'm afraid, Mr X, that you're going to die."

<pause, while Mr X digests this>

Surgeon: "I'm not sure when, but soon - if you continue to smoke..."

Utter bastard - but his ward-rounds are apparently deeply amusing...
 
 
Ganesh
12:56 / 15.03.02
Libertine: it's been a while since the "elitism" spectre's emerged from its revolving-door crypt. Nice one.
 
 
sleazenation
13:01 / 15.03.02
I think Trijhos's idea of a 2-5 post per day limit for the first x many posts is nice and workable

but to explain - the reason that an exclusive 'newbies by nomination only' scheme automatically discriminates against people who stumble upon this site from a link or a search or whatever -
 
 
Trijhaos
13:03 / 15.03.02
A quiz asking people about their professions, and basing membership privilages on whether you're employed or not. Oh yeah that's real fair. What about people like me who don't have a profession, because they're full-time students, trying to better themselves?
 
 
higuita
13:03 / 15.03.02
Very much like our 'fuckwit of the month' award at work, methinks there would be an aspect of irresistible competition ot the ostracism idea.

I think the idea of corralling the site so newbies only have access to one area is viable - it serves as a tantaliser to keep people interested and at the same time, if someone gets on your wick, you can flounce off to another area.

At the same time, I agree it's a shame that this even has to be considered but the level of shit that's been kicked up recently is a bit much.

Perhaps we could put a form together similar to the one you have to fill in on entering the US.

Are you now, or have you ever been, an asshole?

***

I've just tried to post this twice, but flood control isn't letting me through. I haven't posted in the last hour or so, though. Is anyone else having trouble?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:06 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:
A quiz asking people about their professions, and basing membership privilages on whether you're employed or not. Oh yeah that's real fair. What about people like me who don't have a profession, because they're full-time students, trying to better themselves?

Get. Out.

IF you get an MBA, call us. We might consider offering you probationary status.


Huggles!
 
 
Fist Fun
13:10 / 15.03.02
I think complicated solutions involving barriers to entry just aren't going to work.
It is unrealistic to expect everyone who happens upon the site to immediately be captivated by the magic that is Barbelith. Like any community it takes a bit of personal investment before you start really getting into it.
It is nice to think that applicants are going to be lining up, waiting 14 days, limited just to the conversation or whatever. In reality people are just gonna surf in and straight back out.
However I think innovation for the sake of it sounds fun and I am up for that.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:18 / 15.03.02
I think it's worth trying a few things - the delay, the restrictions, the "holidays" - see what the feedback is like.

I think an ignore button is a very good idea - but coudl I propose that who a person is being ignored by appears at the bottom of their posts? I may be being oversensitive, but if a junior knodger was happily sounding off about how all lesbians need a good shafting, the bitches, on a thread I was involved in I'd quite like it to be clear that I wasn't reading it rather than just letting it go (the problem with the "don't feed the trolls" plan - if somebody is being offensively awful, I'm ethically conflicted about just leaving them to it).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:19 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Libertine Idler:
I've been looking at these BARBELITH INVADED! threads for a few days now, and it already seems mighty cliquey in here. Lots of individuals being singled out, lots of exclusionary/elitist talk.

I can sort of see how it could look that way, and it may be that there's a certain degree of overreaction going on at present. Hopefully when things calm down a little we'll be able to come up with a more objective response.

quote:
I don't really have a solution for the troll thing--they do tend to spring up from beneath the cyberbridge demanding their fee--but the tone seems a bit stuffy to me.

Again, I can see how you'd feel that. It's a little difficult to put across the kind of long-term provocation that's landed us here, especially since the really nasty stuff is now gone- either because it was accidentally or deliberately wiped, or because it was posted in the conversation and got binned once its month was up.

It's one of those things where you really had to be there. I'm not going to rehash the details on the board. If you really need to know, PM me and I'll rant for you. I give good rant.

quote:And you know--I can't really put my finger on what's so unsettling about this thread.

I can. At the end of the day we're talking about exclusion, and that is an ugly thing. It really bugs me that the irresponsible behaviour of one or two people has had this effect. Sadly, the kind of measures we're talking about here may be the lesser of two evils.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]
 
 
I, Libertine
13:19 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Libertine: it's been a while since the "elitism" spectre's emerged from its revolving-door crypt. Nice one.

I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, Ganesh...I like to visit, but I don't live in here. I was referring to Flux's suggestion that we invite lots of "important" people to join...and trying to refer to it without using sarcasm or directly mentioning names. But now I've done both.

Put plainly, I find the discussion of how to deal with the "TROLL THREAT" far more annoying than the trolls themselves.

Let's play SURVIVOR: BARBELITH, everyone! Every week a member of the tribe gets voted off the island because the majority thinks they're a fuckwit.

And with a name like "majority," they've got to be right!
 
 
I, Libertine
13:24 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:


Sadly, the kind of measures we're talking about here may be the lesser of two evils.



Not sure about that, but I do appreciate the thoughtful reply, Mord. I was around for quite a bit of the Knowledge hijinx, and I know why Mr. Calo is so utterly reviled. He doesn't cut the mustard for me, that's certain.

I think an Ignore button, combined with Enlightened Moderation, would nip as much of the problem as can be nipped.

The rest comes with the territory.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
14:14 / 15.03.02
Okay. A proposal:

First. If we have an ignore function, that would seem like the simplest solution for dealing w/trolls in an immediate sense. Then, those who don't care to read what the troll (and there seems to be as many definitions of troll as there are people defining it) has to say can ignore him/her and those who do can read away. And you yourself can make the adult decision of not replying like an eight year old in return. Not to make an example of someone again, but Haus, for example, makes subtle (and not so subtle) personal jabs at people from time to time that I take issue with (like the 'not very smart' comment above) and my first, knee-jerk reaction is to fire some "Oh yeah?" post back. But then I remember that I'm an adult and I let it slide. (BTW, this is not to say that I have any ill-will towards you, Haus.)

Second. Put personal information on the board at your own risk. I have no problem putting my e-mail address in my profile because I only use it for Barbelith and a couple of other relatively non-personal things. I would not put any of my personal e-mail addresses on the board. Some of us have chosen to reveal our real names, others have not. If you are careful, it would be very difficult for anyone to find out anything about the outside-Barbelith you.

Third. Yes, perhaps certain areas should be restricted to members only and, even then, tightly regulated. I don't have a problem with, say, Gathering being members only. It makes sense that you wouldn't want to be transmitting personal information like that to anyone who might be surfing in. Maybe the areas should be tiered. Those with the broadest range of interest are open to anyone who wants to read the posts and signing up for these areas would be as easy as it always has been. Then perhaps areas where only members could read and post. And then areas where only approved members could read and post. This is only a suggestion.

Fourth. I think sponsorship is a fine idea, but not as the exclusive route for new members. I don't like the idea of making this place any more clique-y. If we're concerned about too many people being here, we could look into ways of getting rid of inactive suits. Why not make a policy where your suit is deleted after 90 days of inactivity (i.e. not signing in at all)? I'm sure that there are a lot of these inactive suits lying about.

Fifth. Lay down ground rules and causes for potential expulsion. Be specific in your wording. Be consistent in reasons for expulsion and in the number of warnings and/or temporary bannings given prior to expulsion. Make sure that everything pertaining to punishment and expulsion is made very clear.

Basically, I don't think that we have to go to the extremes that some people are suggesting. I think if we acknowledge that some of these problems stem from the way that we interact w/the board, we can change this stuff w/o a lot of regulation.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
grant
14:24 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by sleazenation:
I think Trijhos's idea of a 2-5 post per day limit for the first x many posts is nice and workable.

Yes. This, coupled with the Ignore button -- and maybe the old, anyone-can-post-whatever, however Help section -- should take care of any problems without discouraging people who just (like me and a huge number of current posters) got here after putting "Barbelith" in google and seeing what popped up.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
14:29 / 15.03.02
Just got through the rest of the posts and saw that other people had some of the same ideas as me. This is good. Maybe we should see what Tom's amenable to and put some of this to a vote at some point in the future? After lots and lots of "town meetings" and discussions, of course.

Also, it just occurred to me...we must have an awfully inflated rock star image of ourselves and what we have to say as a board to think that non-members would really be at all thrilled w/visiting the board and not being able to post. That's the whole point of this thing. The interaction. So, then. Another proposal. If we can't set up the aforementioned tier thing, we might as well seal the whole board off from the public. Because I know that, for me, it would be about as exciting as watching paint dry if I could only read and never interact with the board. There's no point in it even being viewable by the public if they can't put in their two cents. Just my two cents.
Arthur Sudnam, II

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Arthur Sudnam ]
 
 
grant
14:29 / 15.03.02
sponsorship
is for
the Masons.
 
 
Trijhaos
14:34 / 15.03.02
Tiers? Aren't we getting a wee bit too "clique-y" with that particular idea? I mean if someone's not on the "approved member's list" for a certain forum, they'll start seeing those people as "elitist bastards" or some such thing, which could cause dissention.

Not something I'd like to see. Now restricting read-write access of some of the areas such as the gathering or whatever I could see.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
14:39 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Arthur Sudnam:


Also, it just occurred to me...we must have an awfully inflated rock star image of ourselves

But... I AM a rock star!!!!


>>skulks off to trash hotel room<<
 
 
The Planet of Sound
14:53 / 15.03.02
I'd just like to say that now that another.com have started charging a whole £15 a a year, I won't be able to access my Barb-e-dress if I forget my password, which, going by my addled mind's current performance, is entirely possible. How does one re-access the board in such cicrcumstances in the current situation, Tom? Is it possible to PM you at plasticbag with a code word of some kind? Possible 'nunchies'? 'Ftunch'?
 
 
casemaker
14:56 / 15.03.02
“Here comes the argument. I’m on a mission to never agree.”
This discussion is devolving into a snake swallowing it’s own tail. I’m reading this barrage of posts and thinking: if I were Tom, I would find it immensely difficult to make a policy decision based on everyone’s different opinions. Then I realize, isn’t it inherently the chaos of all these different opinions that makes Barbelith such an excellent place to visit for discussion and information? Here, we’ve got a free market of ideas. Sure it can get watered down by “trolls” (call me a neophyte but what exactly is the definition of troll?) but by enforcing bureaucracy like sponsorship, buttons, bans and barriers we’ll be losing the chaotic flow of information that makes Barbelith such a micro-utopia to begin with. Who am I to say that the epithets of said trolls are worth less than the rhetoric of a more cerebral member?

I’ve always admired and respected this board as being a stalwart example of aspiration for better discourse in the actual physical world. Barbelith exemplifies the concept that each individual has the right to do and say what they want, as long as they don’t infringe on another individual’s right to do the same. By becoming an inclusionary, sponsored only embassy, we’d ignore that. It would stop us from being a model for positive interaction, one that reflects on our behavior when we’re not in front of the computer.

Above all that, I think the real issue at hand is what the definition of the board should be. Are we a bastion for free speech? Or a coalition of supposed high-brow folks strutting their stuff? We also REALLY need to decide whether this is a vote based democracy, a complete free-for-all or just Tom’s private enterprise. Once a clear “manifesto” is illustrated, then we (or Tom) can start deciding what policies to implement.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:05 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
sponsorship
is for
the Masons.

Hey, that gives me an idea....the Rites of Barbelith!!!! Who would dare be a troll after passing through the Haus of Initiations?
Barbelith "Hell Week", here we come.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
15:11 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Trijhaos:
Tiers? Aren't we getting a wee bit too "clique-y" with that particular idea? I mean if someone's not on the "approved member's list" for a certain forum, they'll start seeing those people as "elitist bastards" or some such thing, which could cause dissention.

I was thinking in terms of Conversation or somesuch where personal info is semi-regularly bandied about. I don't care who reads my personal stuff but I know that there are some who might. It was just a suggestion. Maybe have a whole different membership for certain areas? A different set of membership criteria for the higher tiers? Personally, I'd like the whole board to be open to everyone, but this is obviously not what everyone else wants and it's obviously not going to happen again at this point in time. I'm just offering possible solutions that I would be less uncomfortable with than restricting access to newbies altogether. Compromises, if you will.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
I, Libertine
15:20 / 15.03.02
Frost: "Before I built a wall I'd ask to know what I was walling in or walling out."
 
 
Trijhaos
15:24 / 15.03.02
Compromise is the key word here isn't it? I'm with you, I wish the board would stay the same it was when I first stumbled upon, where anyone who wanted to join could and all that, but as has been said before that probably won't happen for awhile if at all.

Now that I think about it the tier thing could work. You know the more you post the more tiers are opened to you? I mean who's going to waste their time posting 100 messages just so they can get to the "super-secret extra chewy elite" part of the board and troll or act like an ass?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
15:33 / 15.03.02
He's right, I'm not very smart.

Originally posted by Tom

"Haven't you just demonstrated why it wouldn't be a gentleman's club though? I mean - we've got a LOT of different types of people on the board - all of us have a slightly over-lapping sense of what the board should be - wouldn't our choices reflect that?"

To a certain extent but you've got to know someone to get it, my dad's golf club does this. It's the negative I'm worried about. Everyone's got differen definitions of what a troll is, even recently there wasn't that many people who kicked up a fuss, though the fuss was vocal.

Originally posted by SFD

"i dunno what haus thinks, but i find that being picked out like this - and compared unfavourably with someone who has come out with some pretty vile abuse and who is even after being banned harassing members of the board - is upsetting in the extreme. reid - we had some spats a long while ago. i have no idea why that should justify what you've said; if you have a problem with what i post, then please enter into discussion/debate."

First of all I apologise unreservedly to SFD and Haus for naming them. The reason was to illustrate that different people have very different ideas of what is acceptable/annoying whatever. What's one person's Knowledge is another's Haus. (Just noticed Haus's reply, apology still stands though I have some time to kill so if you're up for mud slinging move it to another thread).

Why isn't the ignore key enough? If people are acting like tits and you have the function to ignore them (and those who did want to take issue with, as so many people seem to want to do could) why impose draconian measures? You've got the tool to ignore them and after a certain amount of ignoring I'm sure most Trolls will get board. The the only problem must be spamming and there are other ways to handle that. Also if there is enough furore over someone and enough of the community agrees chuck them, I don't see how any of the other ideas suggested would stop a determined troll.

Originally posted by Kit Kat

"For me it's more the way the entire board gets caught up in it - I mean, the Knodge issue has dominated the board for the last, what, two months; that's ridiculous."

The whole board does not get involved, the heavy posters get involved, go back and have a look at the number of people posting seriously on one of the lets kick Knowledge out posts and compare it to the amount of people posting on this thread.

Originally posted by R.Randy Dupre

"I can't help feeling that the sponsorship method of enrolling new members is exactly what we don't need here. If you want discussion to stagnate then it's the right way to go. The board has always been liveliest (sp?) and most enganging when a new member arrives with a viewpoint that's generally unpopular or hasn't been properly considered before. If you limit membership to people who already know each other, that's far less likely to happen."

This is a good point, even if we disagree vhemenently with what someone says it's good to get the otherside of the argument, especially if both sides can do it without just making snide comments. Like Jade the best thing about this place is constantly having to justify what you think and if that justification is lacking then reassessing what you believe. If it's just us with a relativly homogenous set of beliefs then we will stagnate.

Is it possible to do a straight vote on this stuff rather than the normal discussion thread.
 
 
Ierne
16:01 / 15.03.02
Haus, for example, makes subtle (and not so subtle) personal jabs at people from time to time that I take issue with (like the 'not very smart' comment above) – Arthur Sudnam

Haus' posting style seems intended to make people think about what they post, why they typed in what they typed, and how the perspective can be shifted to make those words seem to mean something completely different than what the poster originally intended. That's my take on it anyway – I can see how it pisses people off to have their posts slagged, but he often has a point.

I'll post again at length tonight about the subject of Barbelith membership – I just noticed Haus getting flak and wanted to balance things out a wee bit.
 
 
Ganesh
16:06 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Libertine Idler:
I don't even know what the hell you're talking about, Ganesh...I like to visit, but I don't live in here. I was referring to Flux's suggestion that we invite lots of "important" people to join...and trying to refer to it without using sarcasm or directly mentioning names. But now I've done both.

Apologies for snapping at you, Libertine; Flux's suggestion is elitist, obviously so. I was dreading another protracted conversation bemoaning Barbelith's 'institutional elitism' (y'know, because people who've posted a lot and/or know each other In Real Life can be intimidating on-board).

quote:Put plainly, I find the discussion of how to deal with the "TROLL THREAT" far more annoying than the trolls themselves.

It's wearying, certainly, and there's a numbing sense of deja vu that comes with explaining for the gazillionth time how/why this situation came about and why apparently obviously solutions ('ignore 'em and they'll go away', 'live and let live', 'try to see the joke') have proved counterintuitively unsuccessful.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Persephone
16:48 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The resistable rise of Reidcourchie:
Is it possible to do a straight vote on this stuff rather than the normal discussion thread.

What do people think about this as a decision-making mechanism: this thread is for everyone who cares to put forward their views and ideas and for everyone to debate the same, and for Tom to take in said views and ideas & also participate.

Then Tom decides what he thinks is the best course of action. This, for all the reasons that people have brought up in other threads id est this is his house, he pays the bills. But also because Tom himself has a very high stake in creating and keeping the Barbelith that he thinks will be good and do good.

I think we can put trust in that, and if the Barbelith that he makes is not to people's liking... well, then people will leave this place. Or possibly destroy the board with complaining and bickering, but the point is that these neither are the outcomes that Tom's going for.

But for the sake of argument, suppose that Tom's a madman and a tyrant or that he's heartily sick of Barbelith & would be happiest to see to its destruction, well... in that case, I would not beg a madman to keep up the house I like to play in; I'd leave the house. We're free people, after all. We're none of us entitled to this place.

So perhaps a period of parlamente, then Tom take action. And adjust, as necessary. But by all means, forward ho.

Perhaps I am only describing the process ongoing.

Besides, I've always wanted to test out the philosopher-king model of government. I also think it would clarify matters to understand what contract we have with Tom, whatever that is.
 
 
I, Libertine
16:50 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:


Apologies for snapping at you, Libertine




Ah, no offense, ya big elephant-headed lug, you.

I know some of the Saga of Knowledge (tho I wasn't around to get embroiled in the imbroglio), and I've seen what can happen when one obnoxious, persistent troll goes nuts on a board. Don't think they won't "waste time" racking up thousands of posts to get into these upper tiers that have been proposed. That's the whole point: they are asses craving attention and, on some fundamental level, a little tweaked in the melon. I've seen it happen. I've seen a troll go on posting rampages, insulting and threatening everyone who got in their way, finally racking up over 2000 empty-headed rants (at best), and finally cajoling the Admin into making them a MODERATOR. All in capital letters, too. Scary stuff.

Maybe part of my frustration stems from the "I can't believe it's happening here" syndrome. At least we're trying to do something about it.

Being able to debate, sometimes fiercely, without flying completely off the handle is a damn good start.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Libertine Idler ]
 
 
Ganesh
16:50 / 15.03.02
<sings>

What if Tom were one of us? Just a slob like one of us? Just a stranger on the bus trying to find his way home...
 
  

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