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Underground > Radio & Music >

What comes into your mind when I say the word...

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09:08 / 18.01.02

A long time back Spin had a piece on RATM "stopping" Wall St. It was pretty funny because, as I recall, trading was stopped by something else (I don't remember exactly what but, it was something funny like the fact that it was the normal fucking end of the day). Anyway, the reason the police hastled RATM was because they didn't have the proper permits for the shoot. RATM knew they didn't have the permits, the cops warned them to beat it, and they continued shooting the video anyway. Cops move in, Rage come off as rebels. Yawn.

And how about the RATM "protest" of Limp Bizkits MTV award...Political!

No star here laces

09:08 / 18.01.02

I also kind of think this is to do with what you count as 'political'.

Haus, for example, is very keen on what I'd call the 'politics of the personal' which is all about how marginalised groups are represented in society, how language use affects people, what is meant by gender/sexuality etc.

And by this coin, as Fly said, lots of music made by women and ethnic groups counts as political.

Will, I think, is using political more in the conventional sense of 'espousing a philosophy of government'. i.e. Billy Bragg is 'political' because he sings about socialism, L'il Kim isn't because she sings about sex.

And in particular is talking about bands that express a particular kind of politics - anti-capitalist, environmentalist possibly even anarchist. Undoubtedly there were a group of british bands in the early 90s who fitted that tag and who also appeared to constitute something like a scene. As opposed to today when politics in music is far more individualised.

So I can see where he's coming from, basically...

11:50 / 18.01.02

It is true that I should have earlier defined what I was considering to be 'political'. This thread started by involving Chumbawumba, a band noted for their overt 'plitical' stance on government policy and social responsibility. It is this form of politics that I have suggested has been in decline within 'pop' music, exasperated by the CJA and a transition from overt external politics to a more personal.
I have also being writing along the theory that bands can express their 'polotics' by going against the conventions of teh welol groomed pop act, such as the stage demonstrations that proliferated the early 90's. I would call this indignance and balls, others immaturity and arrogance.
It is this element that I have seen little demonstration of within the pop genre of recent time. I do not reject and embrace that the kind of politics that is being expresed has changed.
But does the decade cycle of social unrest require that a more overt 'political' stance be made by pop acts once again? Is this currently taking place?

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:01 / 18.01.02

Hip-hop is full of overt political stances, and people who look nothing like a "well-groomed pop act". I named some of them above. Be assured that someone like Mos Def is selling far more records than Chumbawumba did prior to 'Tupthumping' - so in fact, you could argue that political content in popular music is on the rise. Maybe just not amongst UK guitar bands...

12:07 / 18.01.02

quote:Yep. Rage Against the Machine may not be very good, and may not be very bright, but they are certainly political.

Says who?
But you just have to check their site to see all their little political bits

What about Manic Street Preachers they're meant to be aren't they - and even U2 (jumps for cover)

12:58 / 18.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
We propose that what is experimental in art is inextricable from what is revolutionary politically.

Uh, YES, THANK YOU. What is art if not in some way a thought made tangible? And if we could argue (and I would argue this), that "good" art is art that both manages to express something on a personal level while also managing to express/comment on the society in which the art was created, then how can one divide music into political and not political?

I could easily argue that Elvis doing "That's All Right Mama" is a political song, even though he originally wrote and sang that song for his Mama. But he sounded like a black man and he brought the white boys into the black man's music. Which was then, as we know, imported to the white kids as "Rock N' Roll." That's not political?

Will, I know what you're saying in terms of overt political statements by bands but to me it comes off more as nostalgia for music of the early 90s than anything. But as with all creative forms of expression, it is far better to be moving forward and growing than to remain in a static bubble. Which is where we would essentially be if the sound and politics of these bands you've mentioned remained unchanged since 1991.

And that's not to say that Eminem and Limp Biskit are improvements but I would argue that you have to create a little crap in order to create good art, and there are a lot of good bands out there making some quality political statements, and Flyboy mentioned a shitload of them so I won't do that unless ya beg me.

[ 18-01-2002: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]

18:19 / 18.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Cherry Bomb:

I could easily argue that Elvis doing "That's All Right Mama" is a political song, even though he originally wrote and sang that song for his Mama.

I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but Elvis didn't right that song, it was an old R&B cover, sped up, that him and his band as Sun played while goofing off and Sam Phillips, knowing that was the sound he wanted, made them play it again and recorded it. And he didn't do it for his mother, the reason he did it was stated in my last sentence. The whole legend about him going in to record something for his ma is crap too, he was probably trying to "get discovered." And Elvis never wrote a song.

And as far as politics in music goes, if they're there, fine, if they're not, so be it, all that matters is the song is good. Also, why are you only talking of left-wing political bands (outside of the right-wing being evil)? Because Ted Nugent is probably one of the most politically outspoken rock stars out there.

18:24 / 18.01.02

My bad, CK, certainly about E writing his own stuff, you're right.

But I am telling you that the Elvis Lore I know DOES have him recording that song for his mom. It does seem far more plausible that he was trying to get discovered, however.

Still argue it's a political act.

BTW, the Iron Maiden thread needs you, I think.

18:29 / 18.01.02

Op, I see ya made it over there, CK.

And can I just take a moment to say I am incredulous that a thread ostensibly about Chumbawumba has spawned four pages???

It is, without a doubt one of the worst names for a band of all time.

08:03 / 19.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Cherry Bomb:
But I am telling you that the Elvis Lore I know DOES have him recording that song for his mom.

The first time he went into Sun Studios he claimed that he was doing the song for his mothers birthday (which was about three to four months before he went in there) and he didn't record "That's Alrite Mama," he recorded a song that Sam Phillips found boring because he didn't really like Dean Martin-esque crooner type stuff, which is what Elvis wanted to do. Sam's secratary pressed him to record young Elvis anyways, thinking he had potential, Sam argued but finally gave in. He was about to give up on Elvis' first time in the studio until, during a break, Elvis and his band (who were some of Sun's studio musicians at the time) went into a sped up version of "That's Alrite Mama." Sam Phillips loved it, recorded it and sent it out to the R&B stations who played it non-stop. For a while all Elvis' radio interviews consisted of him trying to prove to people that he was actually white. His singing like a black man was subversive, but even more so was the fact that he dressed like one. And also, when Elvis came out rock'n'roll in and of itself was subversive and the fact that it's not anymore really depresses me and leads me to believe that people just ain't trying anymore. Such a shame.
I got all the Elvis information is from my tour of Sun Studios that I took when I went down to Graceland at the end of summer, so I feel that it's rather reliable.

10:41 / 19.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Not Me Again:
Kym has left Hear'Say, according to reports, because she doesn't want to play for troops in Oman.

Strictly speaking, it was because the concert was being televised. She didn't seem to have a problem with the thing itself, just the publicity.

11:41 / 19.01.02

A stagnant nostalgic Will begs you for names.

12:08 / 19.01.02

see Flyboy's lengthy post on the previous page.

And also be reassured that good ol' fashioned political statements of the noisy 'smash the state' variety are alive and well in the works of such diverse artistes as Atari Teenage Riot, AntiFlag, Dillinger Escape Plan, Pennywise and so on and so forth..

Not to mention Primal Scream who, whilst their politicals are pretty dumb and one-dimensional, have still notched up a no.1 album and three hit singles with 'all jails are concentration camps' rhetoric and a song called 'bomb the pentagon'..

I mean, face it Will, yer argument's rot. Music today is as political as it's ever been, if not more so.

12:28 / 19.01.02

Well I will take it no more, I have been devil's advocate long enough.
Yes I am aware of political content within current music, but a liberal attitude does not always forard any arguement/discussion.
May main point was in regards to anti-establishment/ capitalist statements in 'pop' music. Taken from a time when 'soap dodgers' got into the charts. I must say that I did also relate this point back to late 70's early 80's examples, not just 1992(a point missed by some).
I was also interested in finding out what others thought to any cycle in political content in 'pop' music becoming more overt due to social concerns.( who will mention teh war first?) High accounts of agression/rioting vs solar flare activity. (hippies, punks, ravers,?)

I am a fan of DHR (large collection) and their manifesto and I have also had the joy of sharing a long smoke/chat with ADF on their tour bus. Finally I am hugely impressed by and play out, the current spiritual politics expressed in UK Hip Hop, a la The Runnaways, Roots Manuva and Skitz

Of comes the mask and in comes the line
'Would of got away with it, if it weren't for you pesky kids'

13:00 / 19.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Will 'it work' Wright:

I was also interested in finding out what others thought to any cycle in political content in 'pop' music becoming more overt due to social concerns.( who will mention teh war first?) High accounts of agression/rioting vs solar flare activity. (hippies, punks, ravers,?)

Now that's something that's always worth discussing..

much as the sunspot idea appeals to me, it's pretty dubious at best, but it is interesting to look at pop music as a series of overlapping cycles, going a bit like;

1. cool, exciting scene/musical form A develops 'underground' opposing the hegemony of whatever currently makes up the mainstream

2.cool, exciting scene/musical form A gathers momentum over a number of years until..

3.cool, exciting scene/musical form A breaks the mainstream, leading to a year or two when it's proponants become big stars and it's fans rejoice (ie, punk in '77, grunge/alt-rock in '91).

4. Inevitably, exciting scene/musical form A becomes established in the mainstream and inevitably loses it's initial energy and invention, becoming boring.

5.At about this point, exciting scene/musical form B starts to develop in opposition to the new dominance of scene/form A and the whole thing starts again...

...except that, um, on second thoughts that's probably total bullshit, but I've spent so long writing it I'm not going to just delete it..

I should point out that in the scheme I've just developed, there are generally lots of these cycles going on at the same time in the wild and wonderful world of music, some of them completely seperated from each other and some completely mixed up with each other.

And also that definitions of where one cycle ends and the next begins, and which cycles are important or good, are wholly subjective and are generally just ways of justifying what you think is good, but it does seem to me that just about all kinds of musical innovation can be placed somehow over this
'cycle' template..

I'm talking out of my arse again, aren't I?

14:34 / 19.01.02

Very interesting idea, to start to define a model to such cycles, when I have time I will attempt to employ it, stupidly or not.

I would like to take this point further by eliciting that a cycle is not only endorsed by music and musicians, but at what length do other media forms play.

This can be likened to books or films that pinnacle such cycles. ie Saturday Night Fever or Jubilee

Does a movement require the adoption of a drug? Acid - Hippies, Speed/Glue - Punks?

Fanzines were an obviousd development within the formation and structuring of cycles, with punk being the most notable. Magazines such as The Knowledge continue in this tradition, but what price may have been paid by the birth of Lifestyle magazines, which in my mind have become the bibles of culture groups?

Will this typed garbage continue this thread or shall I inscribe the gravestone.

[ 20-01-2002: Message edited by: Will 'it work' Wright ]

05:19 / 22.01.02

Rizla Year Zero,

I propose:

6. musical scene/form A develops small, dogmatic following...the kind of people who under different circumstances would be Moonies or something similar
7. small dogmatic following coagulates into social clique centered on music scene/form A, use this as an excuse--the inherent sense of superiority generated by membership in a [self-perceived] embattled minority--to act like complete bastards towards the rest of human race.

05:27 / 22.01.02

Anyway, music is still very political and philosophical.
It's just that many of the bands doing it are kind of crap--musically and/or philosophically--or just reek of hypocrisy.
Many bands of the hardcore subgenre posture themselves as somehow iconoclastic, yet simultaneously and vigourously exploit the social structures then denounce (and reap a healthy profit). Dare I mention Papa Roach and that other band that look and sound exactly like them?
If you want protest, I say go with the two Bobs. Or listen to "War Pigs" by Black Sabbath.
But there is something really sickly fun about some suburban shlub wearing two hundred dollars worth of brand names talking--no, mumbling--about the excessive materialism of the world.

05:44 / 22.01.02

And speaking of right-wing political music, did you know that White Power music is like a pretty big industry? Pulls in millions a year?
(...even though it sounds like a cross between a polka and a German man sexually abusing a Walmart guitar while a lobotimized chimp beats a dead child against a drum set...with lyrics to match, quite possibly written by a high-verbal dyslexic with minimal grammatical or rhetorical skills)

this offends pretty much all of my sensibilities across the board...moral, economic, aesthetic....

these people need to be hunted. with sharp pointy things. or even fairly blunt pointy things.

The Natural Way

07:07 / 22.01.02

I say hunt them w/ a dressing gown sash. It'd take ages to kill someone w/ a dressing own sash.

07:07 / 22.01.02

I do believe hearing rumours within the industry regarding the origins of SLIPKNOT (hangmans noose?) being very much in the RIGHT WING camp. (All the band mambers masked up, hmmmmm)

13:17 / 22.01.02

Even if that isn't true, I'm still going to tell everyone it is.. I've always thought they seemed like a bunch of prize wankers.

quote:Originally posted by Sgunnice Runcheon 'n':
I say hunt them w/ a dressing gown sash. It'd take ages to kill someone w/ a dressing own sash.

How about a tooth brush?

18:50 / 22.01.02

wedding gown sash...very nice.
could use that thing they tie the kimono with, too.
if you're morbidly interested, HBO has a really good documentary on hate groups in the US, both of the KKK and skinhead varieties. It features a lot of "White Power Music," both as background and as a point of discussion. the whole thing is generally just really disturbing.

related to the Slipknot rumor [and they are a bunch of wankers, regardless of their political leanings...not that you could understand a word said/sung]...wasn't their a similar set of gossip circulating about Rammstein for awhile? They certainly have the sort of body-fascist, Aryan-boys air to them. I'm pretty sure it was all heresay, but it's kind of interesting.

18:53 / 22.01.02

And the whole inventive, gruesome methods of homicide thing could practically be its own thread.

And Rizla Year Zero...
I counter-propose a spatula.

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