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Star Wars - 'the one who will bring balance to the Force'

  
  

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that
06:32 / 07.01.02
Ok, ok, I know what you're all thinking. But I don't mind. I have been pondering this one quite a bit recently, and I was wondering if any of the rest of you who actually care might want to join me in a bit of chin-stroking.

Ok, in TPM, there's all that stuff about the prophecy about 'the one who will bring balance to the Force', etc. Never as I recall mentioned in the whole rest of the canon, as it stands. But my question is - *is* Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader the one who brings balance to the Force? I think it is fairly hard to read it like that... and am wondering what, if anything, George Lucas plans to do with that particular loose end.
I do find it interesting that Luke wears a lot of black in 'Return of the Jedi', and has a brush with the dark side, as I recall, in one of the spin off novels (I know, I know)... and wasn't it originally supposed to be a three trilogy saga? Perhaps this is all a bit premature, and I should shut up at least until the next two films are out (the pain, the pain - have you *seen* the trailer?????? Ugh.) But, anyway... opinions anyone?
 
 
Bear
07:15 / 07.01.02
I think he'll try and throw a twist into the next 2 - I just can't think what it might be maybe triplets instead of twins

Yeah I heard that there were meant to be another 3 movies after the originals...

If he messes up with this new clone crap - ah well what a mess, we just pretend they didnt happen...
 
 
sleazenation
07:49 / 07.01.02
well Vader redeems himself by jedi and by not either turning or killiing his jedi offspring it could be argued that he managed to bring an element of balence to the force that would be built upon by his descendents
 
 
that
08:06 / 07.01.02
Hmmm...yes. One would have hoped it'd be a little more satisfying than that... Kind of wish he'd worked it into the original films properly if he was going to start throwing it about it TPM though... sort of feel like Vader should've managed to create some sort of convincing amalgam of the dark/light sides of the Force, one which took the [James Earl Jones] power [/James Earl Jones] of the dark side and the moral rectitude of the goody two shoes side...or summat like that, anyway. Though I take your point about there being some potential to build on Vader's actions, I am not sure he exactly brought balance - he just got kicked about a lot by the Emperor, and then his inner turmoil got the better of him and he had a death bed (well, Death Star) re-conversion. I think the act itself was far more about his own fucked-up-ness than about his position as messiah. Wonder if the prophecy thing was an afterthought, I really should stop thinking of it in terms of a grand plan that should make perfect sense...
 
 
uncle retrospective
08:20 / 07.01.02
The balance that Anikin brings to the force?
There are always 2 Sith Lords. A master and an aprentice.
There are shit loads of Jedi.
Ankin kills all the jedi apart for obi wan and Yoda. It's balance but not like they wanted.

I still have some hope if this pans out the way I hope it will.
 
 
Bear
08:32 / 07.01.02
So I just spoke to Mr. Lucas on the telephone he tells me that Anikin goes mad because he finds out his mother had a 3-some with yoda and chewie and he doesn't know who his father is....

Who is his father? Obi-Wan anyone?
 
 
Fra Dolcino
08:32 / 07.01.02
Can someone tell me how the fuck Darth Vader in episode IV (we'll call it Star Wars) doesn't recognise tatooine, his birth place?

OK, I'll accept he forgets everything when he becomes Vader, but why don't the Droids remember Tatooine either, especially C3PO, who was made there?! Also if you were Obi-Wan and you had to hide a baby Luke Skywalker; with all the planets in the galaxy, why take the piss and hide him on the planet Anakin was born?! I can just see Old Ben now, giggling: "Hehehhehe! Vader will never think to look here, the dumbass!"

And why keep the Skywalker name? All Vader had to do was look him up the Tatooine Yellow Pages, or pay a visit to Luke's Aunt (would that make her sister/sister-in-law/cousin to Vader) Beru.

Lucas is gonna have to jump through some big hoops to make me a happy man.

[ 07-01-2002: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]
 
 
deja_vroom
08:32 / 07.01.02
Read all of Fra Dolcino's post. Now let me ask something:

Do you guys really think Star Wars is a consistent story? Do you really believe that there is a consistent background in all that laser sword/mental sorcery parade?
I mean, Lucas wrote it when he was in high school(or so I heard)! It wouldn't surprise me at all to find all these gaps and holes in this story - it is clearly an example of something which hasn't benefitted of a revision or two, to make all ends meet.

To make it a "nonalogy" of that mess just shows how self indulgent Lucas can get when he knows of the non-questioning, all adoring masses of fans he has...
I have to say that TPM was the most imbecilizing film I've ever seen. Sorry.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:32 / 07.01.02
The history of Star Wars might answer your questions. Particularly, this: quote:1975 -- George Lucas conceives of and writes the basic story of Anakin Skywalker's rise, fall and ultimate redemption. This story becomes too large for one film and Lucas divides the story into two trilogies. The first trilogy focuses on the life of a young Anakin Skywalker while the second trilogy focuses on the life of Anakin's son, Luke Skywalker. Lucas chooses to make the second trilogy first since it appears to be the most exciting one to film at the time. . I think something in Easy Riders and Raging Bulls backs this story up - there's a fair bit about Lucas' plans for Star Wars in there, IIRC. It's also confirmed in this article, which contains this quote from Lucas: quote:Lucas's Own Words

Even if you aren't sure about Kurtz's take on the whole thing, you should look at Lucas' own words. Here is a quote from a George Lucas interview done on July 19th 1979:


"The first script was one of six original stories I had written in the form of two trilogies. After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy. So now there are nine stories. The original two trilogies were conceived of as six films of which the first film was number four."

(You can find this quote, as well as many others, about the number of episodes of Star Wars there would ultimately be, here. Thanks to TheForce.net)


So as you can see, it appears that as early as 1979, Lucas was only concerned with six movies.  The extra three were perhaps only tacked on in the hype and excitement of Lucas' success.  You could even say, from a purist point of view, that Star Wars really is only six episodes long, and fans are getting the entire story.
I do think it's self-indulgent, but I don't think this self-indulgence is what prompted him to create a story that spreads over six films in the first place. The fan-worship came after the story, not before, so I think it's a little skew-whiff to infer that it's the other way around. The writing in the films probably has been a bit revisionist of the initial idea too, but hey - isn't that what scriptwriting and filmmaking's about? Remember, one of the original ideas kicked around for Apocalypse Now was for it to be made in wartime using hand-helds on actual battlefields...
 
 
deja_vroom
10:17 / 07.01.02
Ok, ok... but... I'm surely not the only one around who feels that Star Wars is more an under-analyzed obsession for some people than it is a relevant piece of fiction or even a well-told story.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
10:36 / 07.01.02
Entirely. I mean, I think the story's wank, really (midi-chlorians my ass!) but it's not an unusual thing for the rejigging to occur. That's all I'm saying. And yeah, the Cult Of [insert movie here] is more about the fans than about Lucas. 'Cos we all know he's just the kid form the peanut farm who done good...

...and never changed his haircut. Ever.

But I don't get your mention of relevance. Who said movies had to be relevant? (Or well-told - lots of shithouse films gain cult status due to their sheer awfulness.) Sometimes a film is just a film; it doesn't have to relate to anything outside itself, or make some Big Statement about anything; in fantasy/alternate-world films I'd contend that trying to do so can really fuck 'em up, as it could (in some cases) ruin the internal coherence. Not that I'm being coherent by this point, but hey.

Frankly, the only thing that Lucas really wants to give credence to in the real world is the existence of Star Wars merchandise...
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 08.01.02
I've always conceived expressionless to be a twelve part fictionsuit. At the moment we've joined things on part five, but over the next thirty years I'll clue you in on what I was planning all along.

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 08.01.02
BULLSHIT!
 
 
tSuibhne
13:32 / 08.01.02
If memory serves the balance thing is mentioned in the second trilogy (episode 4-6) That's why Obi Wan wants Luke to meet Yoda and all that. The hope is that Luke will take his father's place, and bring balance to the force. That Anakin was supposed to do it, but Obi Wan fucked up, so now we get a second chance with Luke.

As far as inconsistences, Lucas said from the begining that he was trying to create a 'modern myth.' When was the last time you saw two norse, or greek or whoever, myths line up perfectly?

I mean I'm sure it's just not paying attention, but who said he had to pay attention?
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:43 / 08.01.02
If you don't need a coherent plot, then why is he always so smug to the fact that he had 'conceived' the plot a long time ago and had it all worked out, despite the fact that he clearly didn't. If plot was not a consideration, why not just go all David Lynch?

He's set parameters of reality within his own world (he gloats as much in the revised edition of Star Wars' documentary that realism is the key to the films' success), why shouldn't it fit, instead of some lazy rip off. Jesus, it wouldn't have taken that much work. Tolkein never said 'ah well, its just a myth, it won't need to correlate'.

For me, Empire is the best of the bunch because it reflects the 'real' world more closely. Its darker. And Boba Fett rocks, natch.
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:56 / 08.01.02
I’m going to go out on a semi-limb and suggest that whilst the original Star Wars trilogy looks as if it may have been plotted out in one go (though there are some problems with this, such as the pervasive story that Lucas only decided to kill off Obi-wan on the day of shooting), I think that George has realised he can milk his little cashcow, and the new three films are a symptom of that.

Episode 1, for many people including myself, tarnished the whole mythos, and from the trailer of Episode 2, it looks as if the reliance on the romance as a plot-lever is going to be a huge problem because of George’s severe limitations when it comes to writing dialogue. And Mr McGregor’s reported comments about doing reshoots to ‘put in more story’ hardly inspire confidence.

There are plotholes galore in Episode 1, yes, but I think this is because, for all the talk of George having the ideas in mind for years, the film looks like a rush job. The midi-chlorians (?spelling ? Like I even really care about spelling that nonsense right) plot element and the like smack of a man who simply does not know what he’s doing. In fact the whole film looks like the work of a man who hasn’t left the ranch in years, and has no idea how the film medium has changed in that time. Except when it comes to special effects, of course. Oh yes, we love those. To the exclusion of character development or story, if need be.

So don’t be surprised if there are gaps and holes in the whole mythos stemming from the ‘prequels’. I simply do not believe that Lucas had the ‘second trilogy’ planned out at the same time as the other films were being made. There are simply too many discrepancies and messy elements to make me feel that way. I wish it was so, as I still have very fond memories of the original films, and generally find them watchable and enjoyable, but it just ain’t the case.

DBC

Edited to add PS : Fra, funny you should mention Lynch. I understand he was offered the directing job on one of the sequels (Empire/ROTJ), but opted to do Dune instead.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: DaveBCooper ]

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: DaveBCooper ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:06 / 08.01.02
quote:Originally posted by DaveBCooper:
Fra, funny you should mention Lynch. I understand he was offered the directing job on one of the sequels (Empire/ROTJ), but opted to do Dune instead.Hmm... he passed up Ewoks for Sting in those flying underpants? A good choice, I'd say.
 
 
sleazenation
14:17 / 08.01.02
Of course Anakin actually *having* children with someone could be seen as his attempt to balence the force ...
 
 
tSuibhne
15:35 / 08.01.02
quote:Originally posted by DaveBCooper:
I’m going to go out on a semi-limb and suggest that whilst the original Star Wars trilogy looks as if it may have been plotted out in one go (though there are some problems with this, such as the pervasive story that Lucas only decided to kill off Obi-wan on the day of shooting), I think that George has realised he can milk his little cashcow, and the new three films are a symptom of that.


Then why has the basic plot of all three movies been known since the early 80's? The first film would be about Obi Wan finding Anakin, then the clone wars, then about the fall of Anakin and the death of the Jedi.

Plotting out doesn't mean writing the entire script and sticking to it. Lucas himself said that he rewrote the three new movies before doing them so that they were more accessable to his children. This I think is his major flaw with the new films. He's writing for a very specific, limited, audience, teenagers. Instead of writing for a general audience.

As far as the idea that the movies are just thrown together at the last minute. I remember coming across copies of early scripts on line back in the mid 90's. The stories are reported to be early drafts of the story written before Star Wars as Lucas was fleshing it out from one movie to six.

If I can come across them, I'll throw up a link.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
06:36 / 09.01.02
quote:Originally posted by DaveBCooper:

Edited to add PS : Fra, funny you should mention Lynch. I understand he was offered the directing job on one of the sequels (Empire/ROTJ), but opted to do Dune instead.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: DaveBCooper ]


Heh. Now that would have been interesting! Obi-wan appearing to Luke as a dancing dwarf.

Then again, the Dune plot was pretty hard work if you hadn't read the book.

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: DaveBCooper ]
 
 
DaveBCooper
06:36 / 09.01.02
Oh, yes, the basic plot has been known for years, but I think that’s because it’s so basic as to be a bit of backstory : ‘Anakin Skywalker was Obi-Wan’s pupil, but went bad’. So basic that the decision to expand this into three films is the milking I talked about previously.

I wasn’t aware of Lucas admitting to having made his films more aimed at his children, but that is very interesting; not least because taking three whole films to show the corruption of someone would seem to run contrary to the whole ‘fairy tale in space’ ethos of the films released before Ep1. I would have thought that the ‘redemptive’ nature of Eps 4-6 would be much more the sort of thing that he’d want to be showing to his children, not the loss of a virtuous man to evil.

I’m sure it’s in no way a decision to return to a certain franchise after the prestige of being associated with other successful films, say, Willow and Howard the Duck. Not a bit, uh-uh. And in no way like the way that the other SW films have been released in various forms over the years. It’s all about the story, I’m sure.

Ahem.

DBC
 
 
tSuibhne
12:22 / 09.01.02
quote:Originally posted by DaveBCooper:
I would have thought that the ‘redemptive’ nature of Eps 4-6 would be much more the sort of thing that he’d want to be showing to his children, not the loss of a virtuous man to evil.

My impression is that 'rewriting it for his kids' meant adding things like the romance stuff to the new flick. Jar Jar Binks to Ep. 1. Stupid pointless crap.

quote:I’m sure it’s in no way a decision to return to a certain franchise after the prestige of being associated with other successful films, say, Willow and Howard the Duck. Not a bit, uh-uh. And in no way like the way that the other SW films have been released in various forms over the years. It’s all about the story, I’m sure.


I didn't say that he was doing the new series out of the goodness of his heart. Even the most hard core SW fans, understand that he's a greedy bastard. And that he seems to get off on milking Star Wars for all it's worth.

What I'm saying is that the current movies were not invented, wholesale, in the last five years or so. And had at least been plotted out to some degree before hand. So far, the arguement that he did come up with these films at the last minute is based on the ussual, 'Lucas sucks, and that's that' logic.

Course, I'm also just having fun fucking with you guys. So hip and cool, and argueing over Star Wars.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: I Am ]
 
 
DaveBCooper
12:58 / 09.01.02
Ah, it’s not important that it’s about SW – any bit of tat that purports to be the result of years of work and planning (but clearly isn’t) is equally mockable … Harris’ Hannibal, say.

DBC
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:01 / 09.01.02
quote:Originally posted by I Am:
My impression is that 'rewriting it for his kids' meant adding things like the romance stuff to the new flick. Jar Jar Binks to Ep. 1. Stupid pointless crap.Unlike those Ewoks, man.

Ahem.
 
 
tSuibhne
13:03 / 09.01.02
quote:Originally posted by DaveBCooper:
Ah, it’s not important that it’s about SW – any bit of tat that purports to be the result of years of work and planning (but clearly isn’t) is equally mockable … Harris’ Hannibal, say.

Yeah, so clear. So clear that you've yet to produce any proof. So clear. Yup. Crystal man.

Edited to add: He also has never said that the three new movies are the result of "years of work." He said that he plotted out how the three films would work when he started the whole thing. He never said that he's spent the last 25 years writing these scripts. He probably had some notes and a few scenes sketched out, may be a few pages of dialoge that got tossed when he read them again 25 years later.

Plotting something out 20-25 years ago, doesn't mean that the scripts weren't writen in the last 10 years.

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: I Am ]
 
 
tSuibhne
13:06 / 09.01.02
quote:Originally posted by DaveBCooper:
Ahem.

quote:Originally posted by The Return Of Rothkoid:
Ahem.

What's with all the throat clearing? I didn't give you guys my cold, did I?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:33 / 09.01.02
Oddly enough, my cold probably is a result of the last barbmeet I went to... hmmmmmm.
 
 
Sauron
13:36 / 09.01.02
Balance in the force- at the start shit loads of Jedi's at the end, 1 Jedi.

It's the end of magic as they know it. It's like the end of LOTR, all these things end with the dawn of a fucking boring new age, akin to ours. Probably so we go home and get on with our lives rather than trying to raise planes out of swamps. write shit poetry and live in secret woods.
 
 
that
13:42 / 09.01.02
Not true, 'cause Luke will train a bunch of new Jedi...not just let 'em die out. It happens in the books anyway...
 
 
sleazenation
14:16 / 09.01.02
ah but the theory is that lukes jedi's are more balenced individuals - and leia at least s a jedi with a family...
 
 
that
14:26 / 09.01.02
Doesn't represent the 'death of magic' though, which seemed to be Sauron's point... or not necessarily, anyway, depending on your definition of magic, and whether you assume that by re-institutionalising those with Jedi traits you automatically create a 'magic'-free zone. Does seem a little dry in TPM...much more fun to be lifting spacecraft and balancing Yoda on good ole swampy Dagobah, I guess.

In at least one of the books, a student of Luke's has a brush with the dark side, as he's arrogant enough to assume he can use it for *good*...that is what I reckon Vader should've been up to... not, as I think Lozt said, being the Padawan equivalent of Harry Enfield's Kevin...

[ 09-01-2002: Message edited by: Cholister ]
 
 
that
14:35 / 09.01.02
Interesting that Luke, should he wish to, could rewrite the whole Jedi ethos though... and I know the two are entirely separate and the books are un-George Lucas-ly, but that thing about 'a Jedi shall not know love' from the Ep. II film posters doesn't get a look in with Leia, Han and the kiddos. <beavis and butthead> heh heh heh. Leia Organa Solo. Han Organa Solo. </beavis and butthead>.
 
 
tSuibhne
17:31 / 09.01.02
My impression was always that Luke had saved the Jedi from the verge of dieing out. And that he would now teach new Jedi, who would teach other Jedi, etc. Untill the Jedi were restored to thier previous roles.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
07:26 / 10.01.02
Me too, with the help of Mrs Solo.

But where does that Star Wars Christmas special with the wookie family fit in?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:25 / 10.01.02
I'm sure that'll be made clear in Episode III: The Rise Of The Tie-In.
 
  

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