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The Second Lord of the Rings Film

 
  

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Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
12:30 / 06.07.02
"The dark lord can never have this ring, so we shall take it to his house.." that concept always bothered me, if i made like, a really cool gun or something, i wouldnt live near the one thing that could take it away.
 
 
Spaniel
13:48 / 06.07.02
Good point, videodrome. Jackson's style has always been frenetic and innovative. Arrow-cam's are totally in keeping with what we've come to expect from him.

On the matter of TTT, I quote:

"The battle of Helm's Deep will be forty-five minutes, no interruptions at all."

"The next film will have Oliphaunts and Wargs."

"Shadowfax will be really big... ...14 feet tall."

Check out http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1025872678.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:17 / 06.07.02
I thought Warg's were Orcs. Am I just wrong?

But that sounds great.

Vid: "He's very visceral, and I'm kinda suprised there was so little of that sorta thing in Fellowship."

But that's just it, I thought Jackson's take on LOTR was VERY visceral: loads of heavy clanking steel and armour and dirt and you could feel those weapons going in.... One of the reasons I liked the film so much, actually. I'd never really considered LOTR in that light before. Yeah, the arrow-cam reminded me less of Spielberg and just how playful and fun Jackson can be. In fact, there's nothing about Jackson's style that reminds me of Spielberg - his stuff just doesn't have that all-american-kid's-eye-view.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:20 / 06.07.02
Oh, sorry, I've just remembered: Warg's are evil wolves, aren't they?
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:51 / 07.07.02
I missed this thread last year when it was started..... they really changed that bit of Star Wars? It's like when Fox showed 'From Dusk Till Dawn'. They actually changed the name of the bar to the 'Kitty Twister' and Cheech's speech to "we've got black kitty, white kitty, chicken kitty, etc. etc." Isn't that just too much trouble to go back and change? Why bother?

At least it's just bits of fantasy movies and not history in these cases. The most evil thing I've ever seen was the cartoon 'Anastasia' that was in the theater 5 or so years ago. Apparently Rasputin, with the aid of a white talking bat, lead the Russian Revolution against the kind, benevolent Tsar.
 
 
Loomis
08:42 / 08.07.02
Well I don't want to have a big shitfight over it as I know a lot of folks dug it which is fine, but what bothers me is when people go on about how wonderful Jackson is and how faithful he was and how well he created a sense of the book. Which he didn't at fucking all. SO I just want to clarify my position...

First I'll come clean and confess I don't know a lot about movies. I'm a books guy from first to last, so I can't really comment about visual styles of different directors. My basic criticism of Jackson as Speilberg was more in the general sense of "director who likes to wank on with technology rather than craft a good story". So I suppose the new Lucas would be a better reference. Too busy designing video game tie-ins to craft a decent script and present meaningful scenes, at the very least, if not an entirely coherent work.

I definitely need to see it again, but on my one viewing, in terms of visuals, I suppose he did okay with most of it, though I thought some bits looked totally fake, and a lot of it was cheesy, from the debased versions of ELrond and Gimli ("no one tosses a dwarf"? - fuck right off), to the arrow cam and the plasticine cave troll. And that fight between Gandalf and Saruman was shit too. What was that bit about spinning Gandalf around on his head? I kept expecting to see the skateboard underneath him.

But it was lovely to see middle earth on screen, obviously, and as I say, generally it looked okay and I'm not going to go nuts becase jackson didn't do everything as I would want. The one single problem that ruined it for me was the presentation of key scenes. He didn't give a sense of what was important. The council of Elrond is one of the most importannt moments in the whole trilogy. It's critical to know the importance of the characters who are there, and why they go and what they want, and the races they represent. This knowledge is needed throughout, in order to show that the reason they don't get killed in all the battles they have is becasue they are each the most accomplished fighters of their races. A lot is made of that sort of thing in the book but is glossed over in the film, and not because of time reasons. It was the choice of the script writers. It only needed another minute, or the odd reference throughout. The film plays like trypical cop buddy movies, where the bad guys shoot ten thousand bullets without hitting the good guys- unconvincing. It needs to be made clear how important Aragorn is, and what a cataclysmic revelation it is that the king has returned, and that is why he is able to beat off the ringwraiths at weathertop. It needs to be clear what a feat this is, rather than him just jumping in and sending them packing Errol Flynn stylee.

Same with Lorien. It only needed a minute to impress upon the viewer how important it is that these Elves are passing from middle earth, etc. But it's just glossed over as just another side adventure in a list of meaningless side adventures. There is nothing that is meaningless in the book, which is why Tolkien is such a good writer. Sure the whole concept of elves and dwarves may be called generic, but the way in which he deploys these concepts, and the depth he is able to generate through their interaction, and the way he interweaves their destinies, demonstrates his skill with the medium.

So as much as I adore this book, I don't care about Tom Bombadil being cut out, i don't care about Arwen's role being beefed up, and it's okay that it wasn't a perfect movie. But these crucial points around which the novel is strutured were completely fucked up. And that demonstrates what a lack of sensitivity Jackson has to what makes the book work, and when people praise him for supposedly possessing this exact quality, well quite frankly it shits me. So praise the movie if you like, but just don't rave about what a great translation from book to screen it was.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:44 / 09.07.02
Mmmm, but I really think you should re-watch it, Loomis. I'm not sure he does underplay the scenes/characters you mention. And, TBH, they're all fucking amazing fighters who do loads of impossible stuff.... But that's not really the point: the reason none of the fellowship can die, has, in the end, fuck-all to do w/ how hard that are; rather, it's because they act as ciphers for their entire race and if they're struck down...well, thematically it just wouldn't make sense. The emotional undercurrent of the thing'd be fucked.

And I wish people would stop moaning about special effects: they are never going to be perfect, and Jackson really did the best job he could and, as a result, we get an imaginative, playful movie that really looks visually unique and, as far as I'm concerned, REALLY GOOD.

I think Jackson got the balance right: the subplots are thre if yr looking for them (they're not meaningless - all you need to know of the main themes is explained and the elves passing is there), but if yr a kid and just want strange locales, wicked fights and magic...well, that's all Bang! in-yer-face, too.

I can understand why you'd rather LOTR was judged on it's merits as a film as opposed to it's whether or not it's a successful adaption of a book (and I kinda agree w/ you there), but loads of the books energy was there for me, and....fuck it, I don't have an argument as to WHY, but the whole thing gave of an authentic LOTR vibe, nevertheless.

You hate the comedy between Gimli and Legolas (I tell you: if a film on the scale of LOTR did away w/ silly humour people would not come back for the sequel. Sorry, but that's the way it is), but you don't mind Bombadil being cut out? Priorities, man! Yr scale of importance is a bit fucked....
 
 
The Natural Way
11:44 / 09.07.02
Mmmm, but I really think you should re-watch it, Loomis. I'm not sure he does underplay the scenes/characters you mention. And, TBH, they're all fucking amazing fighters who do loads of impossible stuff....but that's not really the point: the reason none of the fellowship can die has, in the end, fuck-all to do w/ how hard that are; rather, it's because they act as ciphers for their entire race and, if they're struck down...well, thematically it just wouldn't make sense. The emotional undercurrent of the thing'd be fucked.

And I wish people would stop maoning about special effects: they are never going to be perfect, and Jackson really did the best job he could and, as a result, we get an imaginative, playful movie that really looks visually unique and, as far as I'm concerned, REALLY GOOD.

I think the gut got the bablance right: the subplots are thre if yr looking for them (they're not meaningless - all you need to know of the main themes is explained and the elves passing is there), but if yr a kid and just want strange locales, wicked fights and magic...well, that's all Bang! in-yer-face, too.

I can understand why you'd rather LOTR was judged on it's merits as a film as opposed to an adaption of a book (and I kinda agree w/ you there), but loads of the books energy was there for me, and....fuck it, I don't have an argument as to WHY, but the whole thing gave of an authentic LOTR vibe, nevertheless.

You hate the comedy between Gimli and Legolas (I tell you: if a film on the scale of LOTR did away w/ silly humour people would not come back for the sequel. Sorry, but that's the way it is), but you don't mind Bombadil being cut out? Priorities, man! Yr scale of importance is a bit fucked.... This is obviously hugely subjective, isn't it? Nothing's really clarified.
 
 
Loomis
12:58 / 09.07.02
Yeah I do need to see it again. I've chilled out since I saw it (you should've seen me then!) and I can see myself watching the dvd's hundereds of times, partly because the added footage will balance it out I expect, and also the effects will look a lot better on the small screen. I much prefer Star Wars on the small screen. I think I will eventually love it, but dammnit I wanted to be like everyone else who ran out of the theatre gushing about it, especially after I'd spent a year salivating over the stills on the net. But then as I said I'm not really a "going to the movies" person. I'd rather watch it at home with the sound up, the pause button handy, and no fuckers in front of me.

Yeah I like the Legolas and Gimli stuff in the book (it looks like Helm Deep will be outstanding in TTT), but that joke about dwarf tossing just smacked of Jar Jar ...

As for Tom Bombadil well, I know he's important, but if you accept that it can't all fit into the movie, better to excise him completely which doesn't have any direct effect, than to squash him into 3 minutes of footage. Besides, I could not imagine what he would look like in real life. Camp as fuck I'd imagine ...
 
 
grant
13:23 / 09.07.02
He *sings*.

*All* the time.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:50 / 09.07.02
Oh, I understand WHY Tom was ditched.... I just think yr getting worked up about something very small: there are worse things.
 
 
Hieronymus
21:46 / 13.08.02
Okay. I didn't know where else to park this. I'm a bit bored and overly caffeinated so excuse my excessive excitability on this sort of geek porn. If it's too spoilery (Zoom's original post had something about 'no spoilers') someone please move it to the appropriate thread. But I had to share this as last I heard this characters wasn't going to be a part of the next film. Which would've been utterly disappointing. Turns out that's not the case.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

Treebeard will be in Two Towers. And he looks very swanky.

You may now begin the bullying and hazing.
 
 
Seth
22:31 / 13.08.02
Loomis: the Council and Lothlorien scenes are getting beefed up with footage restored for the DVD special edition release. We're talking a full half hour's restored footage, and it may make you enjoy the movie a lot more. It's a stretch to imagine a mixed cinema audience sitting through a near four hour film...
 
 
arcboi
23:12 / 13.08.02
Interesting points about the Spielberg'Lucas revisionism. Just one question: WHY???

I've yet to see LOTR but it looks pretty good and I'm looking forward to it (As long as it's not about wizards and orcs and all that old toss anyway). Perhaps to avoid offense it could be renamed 'Some Buildings'.

Back on the revisionism points: does anyone remember a while back, the BBC doing a series on censorship and risky TV and showing an episode of The Young Ones - which they actually edited due to causing possible offense? Or was it just me?
 
 
Loomis
10:33 / 14.08.02
expressionless - yep, am awaiting that with much excitement. Half an hour is such a large amount that the whole film will be changed beyond recognition I should think. I still reckon those scenes could've been done better in the shorter version though, with different dialogue and maybe 2-3 minutes extra, but ...

I've seen it on video now and liked it better than the first time, but still have the same problems with it - I'm sorting out my thoughts to post in the thread dovoted to that.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:54 / 14.08.02
And really disagree w/ you about that cave troll, Loomis. It looks great.

Not video! DVD! Bloody panning and scanning...........
 
 
Jack Fear
12:34 / 14.08.02
It looked all right, but it seemed unnecessary to me: surely a million zillion goblins creeping spiderlike down the walls is threat enough? That image was memorable and creepy, but its effect was diminished as it came after the blood & thunder thud & blunder of the Cave Troll scene.

I dunno: maybe I'm just spoiled by the BBC audio version, which underplays the entire Moria sequence—it's all very eerie and still—until the find the logbook, and read those ominous final words, "Drums—drums in the deep..." and then this low thrumming begins, growing louder and louder all the time, and the tension ratchets up and up until it's nearly unbearable, even though there's nothing really happening... yet.

From Roger Ebert's marvelous review of Fellowship:

The [books are] mostly about leaving places, going places, being places, and going on to other places, all amid fearful portents and speculations.... But [the film] instinctively ramps up to the genre of the overwrought special-effects action picture. That it transcends this genre--that it is a well-crafted and sometimes stirring adventure--is to its credit. But a true visualization of Tolkien's Middle-earth it is not.

Jackson's film could have used less spectacle and more "fearful portents," I think: one of the finest sequences in Fellowship had the hobbits cowering in the ditch as the Black rider sniffs the air for them, its presence causing the very soil to seethe with corruption, and Frodo's desire to put on the Ring becoming maddening... mmmyeah, that's the stuff.

And it shows that you can do this stuff with film.
 
 
Loomis
13:25 / 14.08.02
I'm with the Fear on this one. Perhaps instead of a long fight with the cave troll, they could have had more running and hiding in Moria, to make it more eerie, and even possibly make the aproach of the Balrog longer. I quite liked the Balrog, but on second viewing the cave troll still looks and moves like Gumby after too many ciders ...

Yes, running and hiding very good. That bit with the Rider - brilliant. In fact, all the way up to Weathertop was good and scary, then Aragorn jumps in and dispatches them all so easily, which took away some of the gravitas for me.

I am constantly stunned at how many people find the book flat and the characters two-dimensional. One of the greatest strengths of the book for me is the warmth of the scenes between characters. All the songs and stories around the campfire ("In Moria! In Khazad-dum!" - I wish there was time for some of this kind of thing in the film). One of the central tenets of the book is the fact that it is the goodness of the hobbits that saves middle-earth, and this is due to Gandalf, alone of all the higher beings, paying attention to them and their world, and this bond is shown so well in the opening section of the movie. I think the inclusion of a few of the bonding, character revealing moments (like the ones which made the Shire section so good) would have had a great effect on the audience's feeling of closeness with the fellowship, a feeling I certainly have when I read the book.
 
 
Seth
22:17 / 14.08.02
I take on board all the negative comments, but can we not for a second sit back, take a look at the long history of Hollywood truly ass fucking all that is pure and holy, and say that we got a good deal here? I mean, imagine all the shite that could have been done wrong (deserves a thread in itself). Imagine if it had been done as the studio originally suggested: all three books as one two and a half hour movie, probably directed by Joel Schumacher. I mean, come on...
 
  

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