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[SPOILERS!] Mulholland Drive: Who is the dreamer?

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Watts
23:15 / 25.02.02
On my first viewing I noticed that the earrings Camilla was wearing at the last party (the second Camilla, "Rita") were identical or nearly identical to those that were worn by the director's assistant. It's the small details that were driving me mad....

I've seen the film once, and definitely need to go again. A local discount theater now has it playing for ticket price of $1....
 
 
The Strobe
21:39 / 10.04.02
I saw it tonight. It hurt my head. The Salon article has revealed a lot more, and there's a few other things I pieced together without it... note Betty describing her arrival in LA saying "and I stepped into this... dreamland!". Brilliant visually/aurally, though, and Lynch captures what dreams look like better than anything I've ever seen.

When I get my head around it better I will probably like it even more. Maybe a second viewing in a couple of weeks... for now, I'm going to (try to) sleep on it.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
10:15 / 11.04.02
Interestingly, Lynch says (in Lynch On Lynch, which I must give back to Meme Buggerer) that a lot of his best stuff (ie: the Red Room) comes from dreams. He films 'em as he dreams 'em, and lets the meaning come to him that way... maybe he's just a very naturalistic director at heart?
 
 
rizla mission
11:29 / 12.04.02
(bangs fist upon table)
HA! I KNEW IT!
 
 
The Natural Way
11:41 / 12.04.02
Death really pervades Mulholland Drive. It's always there, rotting away in the backlot behind the glamour and the starlets and the on-screen love affair - the festering, puking, pooing, dirty body in the gutter. As the fissure widens the women shudder..... It's already happened...they're in the wrong movie.

"This is a recording..."
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:48 / 12.04.02
See, I saw that as part of the "Hollywood sucks" thing. Club Silencio is, in part, an attack on Hollywood: everything's already prerecorded, done-and-dusted. There's a '70s star singing, but when Rebekah Del Rio collapses, the show goes on, flawlessly because it's on tape; we don't need actors! We don't have to look after them! Hollywood is both cruel and impotent (the midget, orchestrating scenes, wielding power that his chair-bound body doesn't seem to suggest) in this way.
 
 
higuita
12:37 / 12.04.02
Crikey! I can see I'm going to have to watch it again. As someone mentioned earlier, I was one of the lucky [friends of] the unsuspecting cineplex consumers who got freebies for it. I really enjoyed people's reactions to it afterwards, as we all were asked to scribble responses to the film.
Imagine yourself in the half light of a Birmingham cinema, filled with Joe & Sharon Cinemapass.
Manager: 'So, what did you all think? Anyone? Anyone?"
Sour voice from back: "I thowt it wus fooking sheete." [do you know how difficult the brummie accent is to type?]
All they did was grumble. And there's me squirming in my seat, saying "What? Who are these people?"

As for my twopennorth, (which reprises sort of what some people have already said) I thought it was a cracked replay of the events building up to/around/after the accident leading to the concussion. If you try to look at it as tying up, it doesn't, as there are a number of events and characters which don't fit when taken in a linear sequence. My problems start when I try to figure out what causes that fracture (I think I saw it as a replaying of a guilty conscience) as I really need to see it again.

And that's where Lynch works for me. Coz I want to see it again. Great cinematography, great casting, great music and something I want to at least try to figure out. DL might well not get the same size audiences as the feel good summer blockbuster of the year, but at least he gets the repeat business. And plenty of people buying the video, watching with their fingers on the pause button.

We're all just being manipulated again. He's appealing to my vanity...
 
 
The Natural Way
12:49 / 12.04.02
Yeah, that's there. Mulholland Drive is all about glamour/illusion - it's set in the city of dreams....etc, blah, so at one level the thing is a criticism of Hollywood (the women's relationship is a traditional Hollywood love story, afterall). It all ties in: layers and layers of metaphor.

But I'm really interested in the obsessive nature of the love that resurrects the corpse from the wreck again and again (the narrative is cyclical) - the wankdream, Hollywood fantasy tape-track - and talking about that. The Hollywood critique stuff's alright, but it is, for me, the least interesting thing about the movie.

The collapsed singer also reminds us of where this is all heading....and what's really going on beneath the surface - whyd'ya think the shuddering gets so intense in that sequence?
 
 
videodrome
12:54 / 12.04.02
New info worth sharing:

"Also, before the rumors start, all you film purists should know that yes, there is a brief nude scene of Laura Harring that was digitally blurred from the waist down on purpose. Lynch however made the decision on this... not Universal. A quote from his chatroom on the subject:

DAVIDLYNCH [5:30 PM PST]: WE DID THAT BLURRING FOR THE DVD ON PURPOSE AS WE KNEW THAT PICTURES OF LAURA WOULD BE EVERYWHERE IF WE DIDN'T"


That's from Dugpa.com, which has some other links available. And my own light rumination, done in lazy-ass cut-n-paste style:

...given the other nudity available in Mulholland and Lynch's other films, I'm guessing that this might have been prompted by concerns Laura Harring expressed herself. On the surface this isn't a huge deal - the effect on the film is slight and the stated reason is sadly valid. (I've got proof of it's validity - in the past hour or so I got a hit from someone who searched "mulholland lesbian images download". Sigh.) Still, why would she agree to do the scene in the first place, knowing full well this would be the outcome? And it is disturbing, as revisionism is. An odd thing overall, especially given Lynch's utter lack of interest towards compromise vis a vis presentation of his work on video/DVD. Suspect there's some leverage being exerted somehwere...
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
16:07 / 17.04.02
Another bit of stylistic evidence that lends credence to the dream theory...
Just got the soundtrack last night and realized how much the music differs between the dream and reality. The dream music is, well...dream music. It's all eerie tones and textures. After Diane wakes up, the music is more straightforward score stuff. That's all.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
cusm
19:37 / 23.04.02
Yay! Now that I've finally seen this, I can look at this thread

First, Lynch uses the technique of the unreliable narrator. Diane is dreaming/fantasizing, remembering things as she wants to. Same thing Frank does in LH. All the critical points of trauma from the real world are redone, sometimes mroe than once as the dreaming dreams upon itself. There are definite "lynch pins" (ha!) in the story, like the car accident that show where the fdantasy diverges from the original actions.

Another clue to what is dream and what is real is Lynch's use of archetypical figures, people who are iconic in their perfection. Betty is a stereotype of the innocent girl come to hollywood to make it big, which is further supported by her also being an acting prodigy. The old folks, creepy and clearly unrealistic icons of happy grandparents, that later are twisted as the dreams turn nightmare. Even rita is an iconic prefection of her reality, stripped of any reference to her original self by the amnesia. Compare to LH, where the fantasy version of Frank's wife is Betty Page, and his new fantasy life as the kid is another iconic 1950's american rebel, like James Dean. The iconic and perfect are clues that the characters are not real, and are a part of dreaming.

Clue: common objects that appear in reality and dream that hold importance. Rita's ash tray that she collects later. The lamp. The money Diane pays to have her lover killed that appears in Rita's purse with the key. The key, which become iconic in the dream.

Of course, its more than just Diane's wanking dream before she flips out and does herself. I like the lost souls theory. It may be that Diane and her lover are both caught, Rita after being killed and Diane for killing herself. Rather like Jacob's Ladder. Diane pulls Rita's soul into her fantasy as an amnesiac, and it is through Rita's counterattack that Diane looses her grip and falls to madness. Add in possible demons and angels for the other characters who are too wierd to be real and it makes a neat occult backstory to the fantasy. The director as well, may have been killed with Rita, explaining his part in the dream, though we never see enough of the assassin's story to be sure of that.

So while there may be a linear story beneath it all that is tragic and dark and ultimately mundane, the mindscape created from these actions is far more interesting, especially in how the fantasy may be intersecting reality in parts, causing events such as Diane's suicide.

And just for the record, Damn that was a steamy love scene. Erotic, powerful, but not pornographic. I love the shot with the intersecting lips. Classic.
 
 
deja_vroom
13:50 / 03.05.02
I just saw it. Fuck! Awful (in the good sense, the "cockroaches crawling all over me" sense of awful)! Will see it again, no doubt.
Oh, and about the blue box: Don't you think that the blue box means guilt?

When Diane asks what's the key for, the guy laughs, like saying: "Girl, you're asking me to whack someone. After I do that, wouldn't you expect to feel guilty? This is your key. If you decide to open that box, hope you're strong enough to deal with what's gonna crawl out of it".

Then the box is opened by the beggar, and the monstrous elder couple crawls out of it and goes to haunt Diane. They're the impersonation of her hopes and dreams turned completely monstrous. They're probably built at the image of her parents, whom she left behind, filled with hope that their daughter, once a proud jitterbug dance contest winner, would become a star.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:09 / 03.05.02
Yeah, Jade, Mulholland is all about Hollywood gone toxic. Or, if you like, the flawed, unclean and improper body beneath the glamour of the idealised self. The tramp simply represents the abject, the decaying flesh, relegated to the backlot of the human psyche.
 
 
Ellis says:
08:06 / 11.09.02
Has Lynch spoken about how he originally intended for the series to turn out?
 
 
Jack Fear
12:43 / 11.09.02
What makes you think he even had an ending in mind?

From viewing his previous serial television work, I honestly don't think he's all that interested in movement towards resolution. Lynch works best when the characters get lost, and stay lost.
 
 
Sebastian
18:22 / 11.09.02
De Jade, lucky you, this film has not yet crossed the borders of my country and it looks like it never will.

By the way, did you see it on cinema screen?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:25 / 28.12.02
Apologies for bringing this back after so long, but I've only seen this recently.

I'm not a big fan of the 'dream' interpretation myself. Even following dream logic, there's still things that don't make sense when viewed as the workings of one person's imagination. The way I saw it was that Diane and Camilla are stuck in Limbo after death, unsure of who they are, where they are or what they're doing there. As a personal dimension it's more Diane's construction than Camilla's, what with faces and places linking more to her, along with Camilla/Rita being completely dazed to start off with. Either that or Camilla's been pulled into Diane's Limbo thorugh the strength of her guilt. They both need to find their way to wherever they're going. It's Silencio and the blue box that are the keys to how to get there. Louise, the old woman in the apartments that Aunt Ruth's house is part of, is a seer, some other kind of psychic or another spirit that's accidentally been dragged here - she knows that Ruth's dead and she's been given a message from her to pass on to Diane ("Someone is in trouble"), but she can't because, when she makes to pass on the message, she can't find anyone called Diane.

Little things that I've not seen anyone pick up on yet:

Diane's fantasy of Camilla's murder turning from a plain shooting in some grubby little alley (the door-knock sound in the background whil Diane masturbates is a gun firing a number of times) into a big-budget, movie script killing and linking back to the last glamorous occasion in her life - the journey to the engagement party.

Aunt Ruth's house being on Sunset Boulevard is a huuuuge clue as to one of the film's themes. I'm hoping that someone can provide some links to Gilda, because this is Lynch we're talking about here, so there's got to be a good reason why it happens to be a poster for that film in particular that provides Camilla/Rita with her name.

The note on the dressing gown that Diane/Betty drapes over Camilla/Rita says "Enjoy yourself, Bitsie." I was presuming that Bitsie was just a pet name for Betty, until I looked a bit closer and noticed that it seems to have been altered from "Enjoy yourself, Diane." Again, I'm hoping someone else can have a closer look and let me know if they see the same thing - it certainly looks to me like it should be "Diane."

I absolutely love how we see a few strands of Ed's hair sticking out horizontally, defying gravity, following the course of the bullet, with one single drop of blood on the very end after the hitman has killed him, suggesting that we're not in our reality. Another little moment like this is in Adam's meeting with The Cowboy, the bulb, a standard, element-based, 60W bulb, flickering and buzzing into life like a flourescent strip light.

And blue. Just how important is blue in this film? The colour scheme in Limbo (if that's what it is) is all greens and browns; polished, plastic, matte, covered in grease, everywhere is made up solely of these two colours. The implication is nature, land, an idealised paradise. The deep blue intrudes, knocking any sense of reality askew. We get it a few times; the key, the box, the alley, neon sign and wig in the Silencio scene are the most obvious, but it's also there in the lampshade in Mr Roque's room and the book in Aunt Ruth's bathroom. When we come back to the 'real' world and see how Diane ended up in Limbo, her living room is done out in a pale blue, the first and only time that the colour is used in any of the set design.

One thing that I'm amazed nobody's seen: at the end, when Diane's fumbling for her gun in her bedside drawer, there's an item sitting next to the gun. You can only really see it if you're looking for it (and if you pause the film), a typical Lynch subliminal image.

The blue box.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:45 / 28.12.02
I've got to go along with Runce about trying to force meanings out of every scene. It's not always possible and it's not always wise. I don't think I could extrapolate any literal narrative meaning from the first diner scene. I don't really want to try. What that scene does so well is create a sense of tension and real dread and I think to examine it down to the smallest detail would detract from that, take some of its power away.

A similar thing applies to the blue box; it's folly to try and define the blue box as relating to one thing and one thing alone. Claiming that it means 'guilt' doesn't explain why Camilla/Rita gets pulled into it. Guilt is represented in something associated with the box, mind; the old couple are Diane's parents and it's her guilt at having let them down in so many ways that eventually kills her.

I was doing a quick search to find out more about TOUT PARIS - the Source to the Art of French Decoration (the blue book in Ruth's bathroom) and found this. Again, it's a bit literal for my liking and focusses on one possible meaning - of Ruth, in this case - at the expense of others (the theory that Ruth relates to Diane's desire to travel back to Canada every time things start getting a bit hairy, for example), but there's stuff in there that feels right - the suggestion of abuse, for example, occured to me the second time I watched it, but I'll be damned if I can remember why.
 
 
000
20:25 / 29.12.02
And blue. Just how important is blue in this film?

Colour(s) is/are always important in Lynch's movies. Blue has an abstract value, I think, in his work, Fire Walk With Me boasted a woman in red, head to toe, with a blue rose on her chest which Isaak - explaining it to Sutherland - had no answer to. The TV seascape at the beginning. The White and Black Lodge are kept in red, what differentiates them, exactly? The anti to Blue. Blue is also the revealing light, as Bob enters Laura's bedroom at night, blue light flickers in a corner. Lost Highway, every time Pete strives to recall what exactly went wrong that night, we get thundrous blue lights.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:30 / 11.04.04
Randy, this kind of depresses me

The way I saw it was that Diane and Camilla are stuck in Limbo after death, unsure of who they are, where they are or what they're doing there..


because it's pretty much what I've been saying all the way through this thread, and it seems like pretty firm evidence that most of my posts have come off as confused and unintelligible. I could never bring myself to phrase my core ideas in that kind of way, however, because, as I've said before, I don't want my interpretations to come off as too literal. All I know is, there is a mind/story, and it is suffering...deperate to find the correct "shape". This could be occuring at the point of death as it all gets sucked down the plug-hole or it could be occuring in limbo....but it doesn't matter. All we can say for sure is that somewhere behind the love affair and the mystery, in the backlot of the mind, lurks the dead woman.....
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:11 / 11.04.04
it seems like pretty firm evidence that most of my posts have come off as confused and unintelligible.

Not at all - your posts made perfect sense to me. I think I was just repeating that concept because I'd become a bit frustrated by the constant use of the word 'dream' in the thread and wanted to try and provide a substitute. Hence 'limbo'. I didn't mean it to sound like a specific place or reality, more a mixed, confused mish-mash of realities that the ghosts are constantly jumping between while they try to find answers.

That's why I hate the 'dream' thing and why 'limbo' as the idea of a certain somewhere isn't it either. The first section of the film doesn't happen in any one particular reality - some seems to take place in Diane's mind, some in Camilla's, some in blah blah's, some in physical reality, and so on.

'Aunt Ruth' walking into her bedroom after Rita's been sucked into the blue box because she thought somebody was in there, for example, is a pretty good example of how the ghosts are flitting back and forth between different points in space and time.

But yeah, I'm trying to agree with you, Ox. I think the difference is that I'm struggling to come up with a decent way of describing this concept of insubstantiality, the way that you can't fit anything in the film into one nice, tidy box because nothing's solid, whereas you seem to have got that down. Everything here - the people, the places, the events - is like a wisp of smoke, a memory of a dream of a half-remembered melody. You make to grab them and they slip right through your fingers.
 
 
PatrickMM
18:49 / 11.04.04
I don't really see the limbo idea, because I think the first two thirds of the movie make the most sense when see from Betty/Diane's perspective. That whole sequence is about Diane's desire to both be, and to be with Camilla/Rita. She divorces Camilla from her role as a compettitor for roles (hence the creation of the new Camilla), and makes her into someone who needs Diane's help, rather than in reality, where Diane is the one in need of Camilla's help.

When Betty dresses her up in the wig, they look quite similar, to the point that once Betty has provided the box, she's not needed anymore, and just disappears. To me, the box is Betty's acceptance of death. In the diner, she asks "What does it open," and when it finally is opened, the dream/vision is over, and Betty dies. The Club Silencio scene is all about Betty coming to terms with the fact that her world is an illusion, a recording playing back the moments of her life, in a distorted manner. Realizing that, she finds the box, which is basically death, and opens it, and everything ends.

The most challenging part of the film is the moments after the box is opened, but before it goes int the real world segments. Aunt Ruth's entrance is tough. I think it's to show that Betty and Ria have merged, and are no longer in Aunt Ruth's apartment, they've been moved somewhere else. And then, we see the Cowboy telling her to wake up. Then, we see the dead body. I think by "wake up" he means leave the dream world, and go into the afterlife/actually die, basically to move on. And then, we go right into the real world, in an essentially seamless transition.

The thing I love about the real world sequences (last third of the movie) is the way that Lynch connects things not by linear time, but by feeling. The connection between Camilla telling Diane they can't see each other any more, "because of him," and then cutting immediately to Kesher and Camilla together.

Though even in the "real world" sequences, a lot of it is seen from Diane's point of view. Like the second love scene is in fact Diane's wank fantasy, the pain of Camilla rejecting her overtaking the pleasurable beginning of the scene, when they were together. If that scene is strict reality, it doesn't make much sense why Camillla would be choose to break up with Diane, while lying topless on her couch.

At the end of the movie, after a bit of the "real world" business, we go back to subjective narration. Diane, remembering the bum she saw behind Winkie's (an incident which is re-assigned to the other guy in the dream, perhaps because she didn't want to face it), imagines said bum unleashing the symbol of her Hollywood dreams, the old people (who are not her parents, but the judges of the Jitterbug contest, which she won back in Deep River), tormenting her, taunting her with how far she has fallen. The bum and the old people are opposites, one the symbol of her fears of what she could become, and the other, her hopes and dreams. The old people come out of the box, because it is connected to her death, they are the ones who drive her to kill herself.

Then, in the end, we see a representation of the first chunk of the film, Betty and Rita against the skyline, menaced by the bum. And finally, "silencio," as a mood appropriate closer. I like the idea above that the reliving of the real world may all have taken place at Club Silencio, though I'm not sure it fits into my view of the movie's chronology. I think the women is an extradimensional entity, like the Cowboy (or Bob, the Mystery Man or The Man from Another Place), and when she says "silencio," the dream world is closed, Diane "wakes" from the dream, into death.
 
 
Triplets
14:42 / 13.04.04
Summary of this thread: I'm smart! Acknowledge how smart I am! Yes, you!
 
 
The Natural Way
15:32 / 13.04.04
Oh, fucking grow up.

Jesus.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:38 / 13.04.04
Summary of that post: I am troll! Acknowledge my inability to engage my brain!
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
17:14 / 13.04.04
You're right, Triplets. The point of this thread isn't to interpret a film, but rather to show how smart you are.

And you fail. Go home.
 
 
The Natural Way
17:44 / 14.04.04
Y'know, maybe I'm just stoned, but I feel really offended by this shit, Tron. On two levels: firstly, because it implies that the people posting here, and all the thought they've put into their posts, can be dismissed simply because they use jargon, or choose to frame their interpretation in, errr, "poetic", flowery language; and, secondly, because yr denying yrself the pleasure - and, get this, it IS a pleasure! - of engaging with a really enjoyable conversation, based on the erroneous idea that it is somehow pretentious to talk about a film in anything other than the most matter-of-fact terms.

Oh, whatever. I dunno, I can't really see what yr doing on Barbelith if this kind of stuff pisses you off.
 
 
Mike Phillips
17:27 / 15.01.07
Embarrased to admit: I had to have an Amazon.com poster explain to me the movie I just watched. Even more sad is that I wasn't too keen on the film, but then I read the explanation on Amazon, and now I think the film is great.

How sad is that?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:38 / 18.01.07
I absolutely hated it the first time I saw it. Then about two years passed and I saw it again and fell in love with it. I think it holds up better when you have repeat viewings and time to figure out what you think it means and how all the pieces (both cinematic and narrative) fit together. So, no, not too sad.
 
 
Spaniel
10:09 / 01.05.07
Shame on you Triplets. I hope you're embarrassed.

Just reread what Randy and Marry had to say and I'm desperate to watch this again. Haven't seen it in about three years but I find myself agreeing with you both very, very strongly. While I think most of us agree on a number of broad and important points, all this talk of dreams does seem far, far too reductive and literal and doesn't smell like Lynch at all to me. Tbh, I find it completely baffling that anyone who's familiar with his work and his persona would think it does.

I wouldn't want to argue that the first part isn't more strikingly dreamlike than the second - which does seem to intersect with something we might like to call reality more satisfactorily, and that it does is significant - but I think it's foolish to start using terms like "dream" and "reality" as anything other than rough approximations which can aid discussion. Marry and Randy's recording/limbo/haunting ideas strike me as far more insightful, interesting and meaningful ways of approaching the text.

But maybe I should just shut up and go and watch the film again.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:59 / 01.05.07
I'm so pleased it was Triplets being an arsehole. Proves posters don't have to stay that way.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
15:59 / 01.05.07
not a dream, psychogenic fugue.
 
 
Triplets
16:06 / 01.05.07
Crikey, I can't even remember posting that. What a tool. Sorry, guys!
 
  

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