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Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back.

 
  

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Jack The Bodiless
15:44 / 28.08.01
Sorry about the tone, there... it's easier for me to post this now that I've calmed down than to edit the entire post...

<and relax... be a tree>
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:48 / 28.08.01
Hey man, I'm not saying that human sexuality isn't fluid, because I know that it is - I'm saying that the way Alyssa suddenly becomes 'straight' in the movie really doesn't ring true to me, it seems a bit too 'monochromatic' to me. One minute she was gay, the next she was straight. Like she hopped over a line or something.

The Hooper thing is my mistake. I haven't seen the film in a while, my memory is all foggy. Chris Rock in the new one is most certainly a militant.
 
 
Jamieon
16:25 / 28.08.01
But I know loads of people who've made the transition from gay to straight (and vice versa) at the drop of a hat..... Most homosexuals I know refuse to define their sexuality (and might get a little annoyed with me referring to them as "homosexuals", for that matter). So it didn't really strike me as odd, or problematic.

No, what bugs me about "Chasing Amy" is the way Smith objectifies his female character: She's the repository of truth, and it all feels a bit "Spank me Mummy: I'm naughty, I done bad..."

It's all very Garth Ennis, and it does my head in.

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: runt ]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
16:30 / 28.08.01
I took the montage element of the film, shortly before Holden declares undying love, to be the 'hanging out slightly too much to be just friends' part of the love story... The implcation of the montage, as usual, being that they've spent a considerable amount of time together which has been edited for space.

And her shrieking match with him in the rain outsdie of his car just before they kiss pretty much says it all about how surprised she is about the shift herself, and about how much of an upheaval it might be for her. I particularly liked how, once she'd actually done the deed, she relaxed about it, and didn't worry too much anymore... anticipation/dread being the worst part about a big decision.

I just think the whole movie rings very true, apart from Banky being kind of a cartoon homophobe in denial. For a better portrayal, see Chris Cooper in American Beauty.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:49 / 28.08.01
Look, Jack: let's try this again: I have no problem accepting the idea of people's sexualities being mutable, fluid, shifting, etc, etc. It is my impression however that Smith handles this concept very badly in this film, and that there still remains a nasty sense of "she's likable and feminine, she can't be a real lesbian" that is conveyed. Oh, and before you say it, since it's the defense you've used so far, no that doesn't mean that I subscribe to the above generalisation, just that I believe it exists and that Smith, however well-intentioned, ends up pandering to it.

Equally, I don't think that there's a set way that people of a certain sexuality ought to look. It is my impression on the basis of that scene that Smith does. To suggest that because you don't care "what someone looks like", the movie can't possibly be playing off assumptions common in the media, is either disingenuous or willfully ignorant. Speaking of which:

quote:Has anyone here got a copy of the manual? Or did we leave it in the Head Shop?

...just depresses me. Yeah, okay, you're right, this is political correctness run wiiiild. For FUCK's sake. If we can't use this place to critique a film on a variety of levels, including the political, then what's the fucking point?
 
 
Ellis
19:53 / 28.08.01
I thought Alyssa was bisexual.

And that now, she just went with whoever she liked, whether it was boy orr girl.
 
 
Rage
20:00 / 28.08.01
Am I the only one who gets annoyed by Kevin Smith the Inside Joke Man? It's tiring. I thought Clerks was hilarious, ya. But Mallrats, Chasing Amy, and Dogma were horrible. Just a bunch of inner circle giggles. Trying too hard to be cult, or some shit.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:48 / 28.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
I have no problem accepting the idea of people's sexualities being mutable, fluid, shifting, etc, etc...
I[/b] don't think that there's a set way that people of a certain sexuality ought to look...


Well, that didn't really come across in your post. The Head Shop remark was a little bit of a dig at this tendency on the board to save the carefully thought out argument for the revolution, and post any old crap on the Spectacle, usually with the basis of "Well, that's my opinion", or "God, that's so embarrassingly - you listen to that?!"

If you're going to word something so ambiguously, get ready for a little flak. I'm sorry, but I'm tired, stressed and ill, and I'm having to put up with this incredibly woolly argument in the fucking Conversation about God that makes me wonder why I bother posting here in the first place.

I clearly have no problem with you, because, in the parlance of our American cousins, you rule. Shall we just leave this before it gets out of hand?
 
 
pantone 292
07:41 / 29.08.01
*flyboy I now officially love you.*
Chasing Amy - the title says it all - the woman function in film is to be chased...Went to see it cos I thought the trailer looked good and like it was handling the material sensitively - I dont think that sexuality is stable/determined...Well hell. Boy meets girl, boy *cant* have girl, but boy does get/loses girl but will get girl again.
Thought alyssa *was* interesting as a character, not bothered by her looking glam, but every interesting line she did have got bypassed by her squeaky voice and then hysterical behaviour [lots of crying and flailing around as I recall]. the argument/ crying in the rain followed true passion unleashed scene is a staple of romantic narrative of the utmost tedium. Most interesting thing - opening up the homosocial/homoerotic dynamics between men - if there was any courage in the filmmaking it would have been cut at the point where she walks out leaving the men and the audience in a very difficult situation indeed.I.e. taking out the mediating function of 'woman' and really showing up the structure of so much film, mainstream and supposedly independant.
I think its very very clear that Alyssa and Affleck will get back together again at the end - that is how films end! I also think, its been a while but hey, wasnt that a sucker punch thrown at the audience to the effect that the 2 guys *may* be waving coyly at one another so hey maybe...but no of course not, 'true love' will out.
And yes massive lesbian stereotyping, humourless et al. [gruesome memories of some students of mine - 'but they are like that!]and we're supposed to believe that the worldly alyssa didnt spot where the flirtation with affleck is going? Jeez.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
17:45 / 29.08.01
See, I thought that the whole Banky/Holden thing was handled perfectly. Banky's jealousy was wholly apparent throughout, as was his blatantly hollow homophobia. And of course Holden gave him the perfect outlet, in a threesome with a gorgeous blonde. Once he was left alone with Holden, he got The fear and legged it. The implication is, he legged it out of the flat, as well, and out of the friendship.

And there's no implication that Holden and Alyssa will get back together, just as there's no implication that Banky and Holden will become 'bosom buddies' again. The coda to the film is purely there to show that Holden's grown up a little, and that there's regret on all three sides...

The crying in the rain/romantic moment thing - of course it's a romcom staple. Kin of the point, I think - to suggest that Smith doesn't realise this is to underrate his fascination with slush Hollywood cinema.

The point, I think, is that he really treats their relationship as a boy/girl thing, and doesn't pay too much attention to what everyone else considered her 'previous' sexual orientation. Too many critics have painted this movie as trying in some way to come completely to grips with a set of sexual politics that it's obvious that Smith knows he's not equipped to deal with. He makes no real effort to try. It's a love story to him, plain and simple, and one in which he sets up the bloke to fuck up - seems to me that this was the point all along - wasn't it supposed to align with a failed relationship of his own? Wasn't this the movie he'd wanted to make for years?

People need to stop allocating their own set of critical impulses and attitudes to Chasing Amy. It's tired. It's a romcom with an unhappy, and somewhat realistic ending. That's it. Smith's made no pretension to understanding serious issues of gender politics, let alone queer politics. It's not like this is a Peter Greenaway or an Ang Lee movie... it's just Kev. Leave the little bastard alone... he writes in joke movies with dick, gay, fart and weed gags. He's Woody Allen for the Beavis and Butthead generation. Nothing more.

Peace, my children.
 
 
gentleman loser
18:08 / 29.08.01
Not to put to find a point on it, but most people I know don't even know who Kevin Smith is. I have seen "Clerks" and "Chasing Amy" and for the most part I thought it was the usual tired done ad nauseum by Mel Brooks, the Farrelly brothers, etc, by a supposed "genius" (at least that is what a few critics I read said).

. It'll be American swill, but hey; so's our man.

That's precisely why Smith is so boring. Some call it "comedy". I call it "fucking stupid"

Maybe "Jay and Silent Bob" is a good flick, but based on Smith's track record, I'm not going to pay to see it. That's just me.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
18:30 / 29.08.01
Uh huh. Goodness. Another underexplained 'personal opinion'. In The Spectacle?! Surely not.

How about we try to actually back some of this stuff up with a critique? You know, like in the old days? Where we didn't just say "Huh huh, this film sucks"?

IN THE NAME OF NIGEL CHRIST, WHHHYYYYY DO YOU THINK THIS?!?! Speak me a tidal wave. For fuck's sake, please speak me a tidal wave... unless you want me to rename you ALL Richard Jobson...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:18 / 29.08.01
Er... Jack, I really don't want to antagonise you here, but you've lost me completely as to what's upsetting you. On the one hand you say:

quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
People need to stop allocating their own set of critical impulses and attitudes to Chasing Amy. It's tired. It's a romcom with an unhappy, and somewhat realistic ending. That's it. Smith's made no pretension to understanding serious issues of gender politics, let alone queer politics. It's not like this is a Peter Greenaway or an Ang Lee movie... it's just Kev. Leave the little bastard alone... he writes in joke movies with dick, gay, fart and weed gags. He's Woody Allen for the Beavis and Butthead generation. Nothing more.


But then you also say:

quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
Goodness. Another underexplained 'personal opinion'...
How about we try to actually back some of this stuff up with a critique?


Do you not see any kind of contradiction there? You're asking people to let Smith off the hook and not apply gender/queer politics too critically to his work, because he's just avin a larf. Yet at the same time you complain about the relative lack of intelligent critical analysis in the Spectacle... See the conflict?
 
 
pantone 292
19:47 / 29.08.01
not to mention feeling confident enough to make claims about what a director 'knows'...
Though I do seem to recall the Sight & Sound feature on CA citing Smith claiming to have consulted non other than a bonafide lesbian, Guinevere Turner, so that it was all authentic and that...(not that she would necessarily have any special grounding wisdom).

what gets me is the absolute catch-22 here [and not just here, reviews and conversations off-list]- any argument about aspects of the representation of sexuality in CA that doesnt just embrace it as human and real is automatically collapsed back onto personal issues...
 
 
Margin Walker
22:50 / 29.08.01
quote:Originally posted by gentleman loser:
Maybe "Jay and Silent Bob" is a good flick, but based on Smith's track record, I'm not going to pay to see it. That's just me.


Well put, hombre. Personally, I plan on seeing it for the sole reason that Chris Rock is in it.

[nameless white dude] (to Chris): "You da MAN!"
[Chris Rock]: "No, YOU da man. THAT'S the problem!!"

So yeah, I'll see it--but not until it's on video and long after it's off of the new releases shelf.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
00:34 / 30.08.01
Oy. Ok, this is really simple. Relate it back to music. I wouldn't expect anyone to have a complex ideological or lyrical debate around Van Halen. However, if someone WERE to disect the song 'Amsterdam' in terms of the limited lyrical analogue to 'a woman' going on within the song, I'd be asking them to talk about it in more exacting terms than 'this song sucks, huh huh'.

Chasing Amy is a romantic comedy, in my opinion. Nothing more, and nothing less. Smith has been forced to defend as more than this because of some of the setting of the story. He is not really equipped to do so, within the context of the film and without. If you want to discuss 'notions of virtual identity' in Sleepless In Seattle, we can do that too. Just don't hold Nora Ephron to account for an argument that YOU are placing around a relatively simplistic movie.

What I'm saying is that the sexual politics of Chasing Amy are not remotely the mostimportant thing about the movie. and, incidentally, decrying my point of view for asuming things about the director's intentions when all we're getting is snide comments about how he failed to live up to something that you're assuming he intended is just a ridiculous, and idiotic, argument. Join us in the real world for a moment? Thank you. We're talking about a little movie called Chasing Amy. Welcome.

My point about the Spectacle isn't just based in this thread. It's based in my observation that few seem prepared to actively and intelligently critique anything in this forum without resorting to the the tired and yet classic 'hey, it's my opinion, so , you know, back off' saw.

Fuck off. If you can't adequately explain why (for example) Dire Straits cannot be discussed in the same breath, let alone the same thread, as Tom Waits, then you really need not fucking bother throwing your rancid two cents into this conversation. There are B&B 'huh huh'/'sucks and rocks' message boards aching for your two dimensional input.

That's harsh and unfair, and intentionally so. Go to the Head Shop. Look around. Nothing but intelligent and articulate people discussing subjects that are worth caring about. Much like music, or mivies, forms of art and entertainment which I care very much about. I'm fed up of trying ot engage on this kind of topic and getting patronising bullshit and world weary instead of engagement on these subjects.

The Revolution threads don't often inspire me to comment, primarily because, as I can't quote theory, I feel I have little to contribute. That's my problem, no one else's. But I still read and understand what everyone else is observing and discussing. I'm not stupid, after all. Why can't we do that here? Because no one apart from a very few seem to feel it's worth bothering. We get lazy posts and unsubstantiated views here in the Spectacle. It seems movies nd music, especially, aren't worth a rational and coherent discussion. The nearest we've come recently is some Radiohead threads a good few weeks ago...

I'm not asking for much, I'm really not...
 
 
Ellis
19:54 / 30.08.01
You're right Jack.

I love you.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:28 / 31.08.01
Much as I love Jack, I still think you're trying to have your cake and eat it here. If you want me to analyse a film with any kind of depth or consideration, I can't separate off "political" considertions just because it's a romantic comedy - at least partly because I think Chasing Amy is a film which does try to convey some kind of message about sex and sexuality - and I'm sure that this reads true for many other people here as well. I'm all for an increase in the level of intelligent discussion in the Spectacle - I just think that by placing limits on such discussion as you do above (which, with all due respect, seems to be motivated by little more than the fact that you like the film in question and several people are dissing it), we severely reduce the chances of that happening.

But maybe this deserves another thread. Tomorrow.
 
 
Sandfarmer
09:28 / 31.08.01
I don't think Chasing Amy's message had anything to do with sexuality. It was just about a guy being so insecure about his girlfriend being more sexually experienced than him that he let it ruin the relationship. It was not her being a lesbian or bi-sexual that was the issue. It was the "fingercuffs" incident. Take the entire lesbian element out of the film and its still the "fingercuffs" event that Holden can't get over.

Silent Bob explains the whole fucking thing in his "Chasing Amy" story at the diner.

Take out all the homosexual elements and you still have the same story. You just miss out on the Archie and Jughead jokes.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:28 / 31.08.01
Whoa. I wondered what the hell was going on here.

I saw a Cats and Dogs interview with Susan Saranden. She was asked if the film was political. She said something to the effect of:

"I think every film is political, wether intentional or not, through the things it portrays and the attitudes it reinforces or ignores."

Some things beings more politcal than others of course, intentional or not.

I remember being one of eight or so students, out of fourty, in postmodern cinema who actually understood the course material. Rather than telling us what film we were going to watch next week, as usual, the teacher gave us a riddle:

"It stars a famous male couple, whos relationship could be construed as homosexual, it's a famous Hollywood movie and some of you can probably guess what it is."

I thought long and hard about this one. Till I knew what it was. It could only be one thing.

Next week:

"Does anyone have a guess?"

I raise my hand.

"Yes?"

-- "Bevis and Butthead do America?"

"What?!" shock and disbelife on her face.

-- "Bevis and Butthead are two postmodern orphans, utterly ignored by their biological parents. they compensate by developing a surrogate realtionship with an 'unnatural', virtual, patriarchal piece of technology, the television."

--"Their televison is stolen and they embark on a journey across America to regain their mother/father, where they are led astry by sex (in the form of Demi Moore) and violence (in the form of Bruce Willis)."

"No, but you're right I susspose..."

Turns out it was some stupid Jerry Lewis, Dean Martin piece of Shit.

She had her high art pomo and I had my pop culture cyberpunk pomo.
 
 
pantone 292
09:28 / 31.08.01
Sandman m'dear, is it possible that fears about the 'fingercuffs' story are not about sexuality?
Doesnt that just literalise the problem I think I gestured at b4 - the woman function in narrative cinema as a point of mediation between men, as the decoy to c/overt homoerotic relations? Remove the woman and oops, quick, put her back in place, b4 they start fingering each other.
 
 
HysteriX
17:49 / 03.09.01
Probably the and if not one of the funniest fuckin movies I've ever seen. Straight up. If anyone disses on this movie or doesn't enjoy the comical brilliance than I'd say their sense of humor is NON-EXSISTENT
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:48 / 03.09.01
Which would probably raise a laugh by itself.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
04:27 / 05.09.01
Just saw the film this evening. And half the reason was because y'all have been talking about it so much.

Personally? On the one hand I think it is the WORST Kevin Smith film I've ever seen. "Clerks" at least had some witty commentary on growing up in the suburbs. "Mallrats" was at least cute and starred that UberHottie Jason Lee. "Chasing Amy," unpopular as the opinion may be, still holds the title in my opinion as Kevin's most sophisticated film. "Dogma" at least had some witty insight into what it means to be raised "Catholic."

For the first 30 minutes, I swear I was thinking, "I'm gonna walk out of this film. I can't believe how much it SUCKS!" And I have major soft spot for Kevin. Which is probably why I stayed. And it did get better.

After the film, I got in a huge discussion with my best pal, a gay Brit (in illegal alien exile here in the States), who quasi-hated it and quasi found himself laughing at the gay jokes. "But it's like, Kevin's OPUS for his last four films!" was one of my major arguments. "It's like, the Kevin Smith Universe come together! Crisis on Infinite Kevin Smith Earths!" Which he didn't get because he doesn't read comics, but whatever.

The cameos and the in-jokes SORT OF won me over, but I was more just seeing myself watching it on HBO in a hotel room one afternoon several years in the future, and how much more satisfying that would be.

Plus, in terms of the gay jokes AND the way the women were portrayed I was just like, "God, Kevin, stick to comics, OK?" The whole scene with the ladies mugging around in the pleather? Please. Save it for "Daredevil." And the dialogue between the women just sucked ass. It was SO unrealistic, and so contrived.

Y'know, comics are a medium, and movies are a medium, and I can enjoy fantasy in both, but they're still different mediums. And I got the same feeling watching this as I did watching "Dogma," that Kevin has a hard time distinguishing between the two.

The only thing I liked about the ladies was that they were listening to PJ Harvey in the van.

And a MONKEY??? A fucking MONKEY? What is this, "Any Which Way But Loose?"

But I know, it's the inside jokes. Which is part of what makes me love Kevin Smith movies, even though they basically suck. I just imagine him sitting around thinking, "monkeys will be funny!" and just throwing them in.

But in the end, I decided he just decided he was going to offend EVERYONE with this movie.

And I did still laugh. I'll give it a second viewing. I mean, "Mallrats" annoyed me the first time, although I've since grown to love it.
 
 
Little Miss Anthropy
07:52 / 09.09.01
Smith's a writer, not a director. Which means that, when he wants to make a movie that's more than a 'Woody Allen for the Porky's generation' talking heads flick, like 'Dogma', the direction is lacklustre and ineffectual.

'Clerks' and 'Mallrats' are his best two films precisely because he plays to his strengths, as a writer and as a film-maker. I'm anticipating this next one being a return to form... of course, 'form' is a relative concept, depending on whether you like his stuff or not.
 
 
Ganesh
07:52 / 09.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Face-Cock:
Probably the and if not one of the funniest fuckin movies I've ever seen. Straight up. If anyone disses on this movie or doesn't enjoy the comical brilliance than I'd say their sense of humor is NON-EXSISTENT


FUCKIN YYEAH!!!!!
 
 
Rage
23:26 / 09.09.01
RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kevin Smith movies are like footnotes, in my opinion.

But nobody seems to agree with me about his inside joke overkill. There gets to be a point where it isn't funny anymore.

No?
 
 
Ganesh
23:30 / 09.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Rage:
There gets to be a point where it isn't funny anymore.


I heartily agree. I was being facetious earlier.
 
 
YNH
00:42 / 10.09.01
I think Rage was, too.
 
 
Ellis says:
16:18 / 19.12.01
So has anyone in the UK seen this?

I have and it bored me so much. It wasn't really all that funny (except the "Pie fucker" bit) and the in jokes seemed so geeky, even having Joe Quedesa (sp?). as a pizza boy didn't save this film.

Jay's homophobia wasn't offensive because it was so over the top, instead it was just annoying.

And about a quarter of the movie was just taken from the "Chasing Dogma" trade which just reeked of lazy writing.

It was nice to see Hooper and Banky together though.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
19:13 / 19.12.01
You people better stop dissing the movie or I'm gonna find out where you live and kick all your asses, you fart-knockers!
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:11 / 26.12.01
I agree with Ellis. Saw it in the States a few moths ago, and it has precisely four excellent scenes in it, surrounded by acres and acres of dross - scenes and set-pieces that bear no relevance to the rest of the movie, or the 'plot', and that drag on twice as long as they should, appearances from Saturday Night Live! twats, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher appearances for no other reason that that, you, know, they were in the original Star Wars trilogy... Incidentally, of the four truly excellent and hilarious scenes, I can only remember two, some three months later. So hey! It has longevity, too!

I despair of the man. I truly believe tat his first three movies are excellent. But Dogma was a good movie trapped within reams of exposition and awful performances, that actually had to be redeemed by Affleck and Damon's wonderful performances (which is just Odd And Strange). And Jay And Silent Bob Strike Back... words fucking fail me. If you're writing a comic, you can afford this kind of lazy writing and self-indulgent tripe for one issue. If you're talking about a movie... hey, Kev, you've just wasted x$million. How do you feel? Tossmonster. If the next one doesn't have something like the first three did, I'm going to start thinking that Francis Bacon or Christopher Marlowe wrote them. OR something.
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:20 / 26.12.01
Can I add something it seems these posts are currently missing, Kevin Smiths ability to be self indulgent. As a film-maker myself I find it amazing that such a film or films ever get made and distributed.
Ok so everyone can get hung up on the content, which in my opinion pisses all over films such as Road Trip and American Pie, which I believe share the same intended viewer market. Go ask the Producers.
It is the act of makinmg film that is more political than the content, look at Kubrick for examples or even Coppolla for Apoc. Now.
Independent film-making is hard, tougher in the Uk, but hard. I happen to commend people like Smith, for their ability to take charge of their own careers. Smith follows the mould of Raimi, Lynch, Cameron and Jackson. It is inspirational that these films get made, but one has to remember what teh state of cimnema/video/cable would be like without them.
Back to the content of Jay and Silent Bob....
Well if I was Kevin I would be laughing my ass off. He even gets Wes Craven to become a fool by being in it, on top of showing teh Scream series up with the title duo's cameo. Strike back is the antidote, the end of the line, the bin in which all the throw away material gets put. It honours its resolution to tie the whole franchise together, even the t-shirts, unlike many famous series. Its a bullet in the head of the one trick horse, turned into a wake full of laughter. I'm sure Smith knows that there is only so far one can take things, and its time is up. I wouldn't be suprised if you see Kevin working on more mature material in the future, either as writer and/or director. You can't keep making the Evil Dead forever, or Bad Taste.
Good luck Kevin Smith, with your new future, and thank you for tieing it all up.

This has been a party political broadcast on behalf of the Independent Film Community.
 
  

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