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video games- bastard children of the entertainment industry?

 
  

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Mystery Gypt
04:51 / 15.02.02
the conversation seems to be off-center because some folks are defending or attacking games based on the axis of "fun" while others are comparing the possibilities of narration and character development. these are completely different kinds of critiques.

a roller coaster is fun. a meg ryan film has tons of character development. i'm not interested in attacking or defending either. why? because neither one offers something i can LEARN from. great narrative art -- be it The Invisibles, Chinatown, Ulysseus, Blade Runner, Hamlet, A Woman Under the Influence or From Hell, will show you things about life and humanity that you have no seen or confirm things about life and humanity that you suspected but could never voice. They do this through storytelling and character development -- which are much more complicated and dynamic things then EXPLAINING a made up world and giving the BIOGRAPHY of a fictional character.

i think video games are an amazingly interesting medium, and i think we have yet to see more than the beginnings of what they will someday become. but they do not apeal to the above criteria. they have narration, but not story; they have characters but not - -by the very nature of interactivity -- character development. Defense that includes only the hand-eye coordination aspects or graphical production is tantamount to the defense of a poorly written film that has great art direction and cinematography.

i am not attacking games, i am trying to clarify the discussion. it's been said in this forum by vehemently pro-gamers that games cannot be art because of their interactive elements. i would agree insofar as to say that they have not yet been NARRATIVE art, though they may have visual and programming craft of the highest quality, again for failure to meet the above criteria.

counter examples that speak to that specific kind of narration called STORY would be interesting to hear; further examples of the development of hand-eye coordination would seem to relagate discussion to the level of amusement-park review.
 
 
Bear
05:38 / 15.02.02
quote:I also agree that games like Final Fantasy do become tiring. The plots aren't new and exciting, the vast majority involve finding treasure/destroying an evil presence of some kind.

Sounds kinda like Lord of the Rings
 
 
e-n
06:51 / 15.02.02
HHHMMNNN good arguments for both sides here, but as a gamer I have to sayDeus Ex and Black and White these are both game that are "fun" and teach you something about yourself.Having played a lot of deus ex it was only after watching my flatmate play that I noticed how open ended it was. I had been playing the moral game(hitting enemies with tranquilizer darts, refusing to kill an unarmed prisoner) while he was killing everything in sight with an assault shotgun.Going in the front door while I snuck in quitely.The point with the game is that all versions of play are made valid.You might miss things doing it either way but because there are consequences to your actions and you have no idea what they will be, you have to think hard about everything you do.Sure the story maybe the typical scifi stuff, but it's still gripping when you have such an influence (even if its only a percieved influence) on the game.
Black and white, for those of you who don't know is like a giant personality test.You're a god.Yuo need worship, you have a senmi -independent familiar to help you deal with your subject.Go do whatever you want.
That's it.Now this doesn't subscribe to the normal attributes of a game.There are optional goals but If you don't want to bother with them you don't have to.Yuo can just mess with your follwoers heads.Or not as the case may be.It's an extremely rewarding experience.(Especially when your creature, effectively a vitual pet, wanders off on it's own and starts dancing with the villagers).
These are only two game that mark themselves out from the norm.There is however waay much more dross out there which needs to be waded through (like comics and books and movies).Yuo've just got to searchg the good stuff out.
 
 
Bear
07:14 / 15.02.02
On a bizzare game related note, I played Championship Manager last night for the first time (I'm not really a big football/soccer fan) - and started off as the manager of my home town - how weird is decided on the wages of people I know - very strange knowing people in a game, guess thats what happens when you come from hicksville like me
 
 
Trijhaos
08:22 / 15.02.02
quote: playing lots of computergames is like watching lots of sitcoms

I guess you missed my point with that particular. I was comparing games to sitcoms in that while bother are fun little things you shouldn't try to take any life-afirming messages from either one.
 
 
matsya
08:22 / 15.02.02
okay, just thinking on the hop here (brain's a bit frazzled from watching housemate be lara croft all night)...

the original question (paraphrasing a bit) was 'why do people go "ew" when I tell them that I play games?'

I was a bit heavy-handed with my reply, but what I was getting at was that people (myself included, obviously) probably think "what a freaking waste of time". I guess it's all relative up to there, but I suppose that idea of it being a waste of time comes from some idea that you should be using your time "constructively" in some way, or that there's some measure of the "worth" of a pastime that relates to the character-building nature or educational value of that pastime.

but if you accept the notion of some things being a waste of time and others not, then that's about where I went for the jugular and argued that interacting with a repetitive structure like that which is evidenced by most if not all computer games would be a good canditate for "a waste of time". But honestly, it depends on what the individual gets out of it. For me, it's not much at all.

Another tangent that this conversation has kind of taken has been about whether computer games really are repetitive or not, and I haven't seen anything to convince me that the CORE of most if not all computer games is essentially the same quest-based, goal-oriented, puzzle-solving-in-stages kind of structure that I'm ragging on here. I'm not disputing that the DETAILS of the game might differ- like the graphics, the interface, the backstory - they obviously do. But the ESSENCE, the ENGINE of most games (and I don't mean the software engine) is the same kind of thing.

I don't deny that designing and programming these games is creative, it certainly is. I admire the skills required to do that. But playing them isn't. Just like watching movies isn't creative, but making them is.

not sure where that leaves us, but I should point out that I don't think that you should stop playing the games. not at all. have fun, kids.

m.
 
 
Trijhaos
08:22 / 15.02.02
Video games are a waste of time? Yep. I agree. But reading fiction and watching TV are also both wastes of times. It really depends on how you want to waste your time. Do you want to take an active part in your time-wasting? Play a game. Passive time wasting? read or watch TV. Sure, being constructive is all well and good but sometimes you've just gotta waste some time.

Now if I were to ever say "I like to play games" around here everybody'd just say something along the lines of "cool ,what do ya play". I just asked this question because on some other message boards I saw people saying "oh...I'm soooo geeky, I play games, don't have a girlfriend, and have no social life to speak of..Pity me for I am geek". I was just wondering how many people here thought it was a geeky anti-social hobby.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:59 / 15.02.02
Okay. I know I posted the first reply to this thread, but it now seems to have been eaten. The basic gist of it was this:


quote:Trijhaos:
Why is it when you say that you play video games in your spare time, people look at you like you've grown an extra head. If you read books thats great; you're an intellectual. If you go to the theater or ballet you're cultured. If you watch TV or movies you're like the majority of people in the world. But the instant you say that you like to control the pixels on the television screen, people automatically think you're some sort of geeky troll-person with the social skills of an inebriated lemur.


The videogame indusrty itself is to blame for this, in a very big way. Every new entertainment medium has, at its inception and during its infant period, been the subject of derision from the intelligentsia. Novels, film, television, all were originally viewed as childish activities suitable only for the ill-educated lower classes. They escaped from this snobbish generalisation by reaching for greatness. The first films were notable only for the new technology; there was little to no actual artistic 'worth' in them. But then truly creative people got involved and decided to take the medium to new and exciting places.

The problem with videogames is that people became aware of the commercial possibilities before the artistic ones. Games that dare to try something different from the norm stand very little chance of making it to market. If they eventually do, they're smothered by the big budget tripe that's thrown out by EA, Infogrammes et al and the accompanying marketing push that these companies can afford for their wares. Publishers like these have absolutely no interest in taking the medium to new places; their profits increase year on year simply from financing and releasing genre stereotypes: the first person shooter, the real time strategy, the racing game, the one-on-one fighter.

ANd that's all most people associate with the term 'videogames'. Jesus, look at most of the examples of the form that have been offered up in this thread. Mrtal Kombat is one of the most pathetic 'me too' excuses for a release ever. It sold well for one reason and one reason only: blood. The game was a poor man's Streetfighter that was created by some PR bod at a company notorious for producing shite. GTA3? Please. If there's one game out there right now that's going to reinforce the image of the gamer as a social outcast, that's the one.

The only game mentioned so far that deserves praise for transcending the percieved boundaries of the form is NiGHTS, which I'm guessing most people have never even heard of, let alone played. Why? Partly because the company who published it were in financial difficulty and didn't have the bottomless wallet that was available to their rivals (Sony), partly because it was an original, unique concept that the marketing geniuses decided wouldn't sell.

I'm sick to the back fucking teeth of non-gamers viewing gamers as nerds, geeks, social fucking outcasts.

I'm sick of videogame companies refusing to finance original ideas, sacrificing the possible future of the medium in favour of the fast buck.

What sickens me the most, though, is the way that gamers reinforce their image through their dull, unquestioning acceptance of copycat software and apparent refusal to either put any effort into their purchasing habits ("Oooo! Quake 4! Doom 3! Tomb Raider 46! Gran Turismo 957!") or willingness to even try something that strays from the norm.

In reply to some of the comments from matsya and Crunchy (among others), can I just ask if you'd judge movies and cinema-goers by the popularity the all-action blockbuster, ignoring the artistic moves that are made elsewhere in the industry and focussing only on those films that make muti-million dollar profits?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:07 / 15.02.02
Or, alternatively, how you'd feel if I was to attack comics and their readers because I grew out of reading about some Aryan hunk in tights saving screaming women from the clutches of robotic madmen when I was seven?
 
 
Bear
12:28 / 15.02.02
I play GTA3 because its fun to play, sorry but before I play a game I dont think about -
quote:If there's one game out there right now that's going to reinforce the image of the gamer as a social outcast, that's the one.


As stated before I play games for a few hours escape from the normal world, I've no problem with original games and your right about it being taken over by the larger companies....but thats the same with all forms of media to some degree - I'm not going to start not going to the cinema because the movies been produced by Paramount...
 
 
Trijhaos
15:42 / 15.02.02
I hate to say it but games don't exactly go out of their way to disabuse people of the notion that they're all geeks, nerds, and the like. Just go to any gaming message board. I will flatout guarantee you that there will be at least one thread asking "Who's the hottest chick in this game" or "Who would you want to have sex with". Jesus Christ! These ever so lovely "girls" are just a collection of pixels and some of them are even little sprites from old 8-bit games. You know, I started this thread asking why people see most gamers as geeky because I thought it was a misconception. I was wrong. Most gamers that participate on gaming message boards ARE geeky.
 
 
Bear
16:39 / 15.02.02
me geeky ! pfff fine I'll just go back to my Buffy/WWF watching - OoooH
 
 
Trijhaos
16:48 / 15.02.02
Hell, I'm probably some sort of uber-geek. I read comics, I play video games, watch sci-fi fantasy shows, and I'm studying to get my Bachelor's Degree in Computer Science. The one geeky think I refuse to do though is talk about a bunch of pixels as if they were real. I'm also not going to bemoan my lack of a girlfriend and blame it on my geekiness. That I will blame on the fact that when it comes to girls I'm a spineless little worm boy.

Yes, the video game industry does play a major role in the general population's view of gamers. I mean look at the ads for fear effect 2. They were using naked pixelated women to sell video games. That does not exactly make a good impression on the general populace.

[ 15-02-2002: Message edited by: Trijhaos ]
 
 
matsya
21:17 / 15.02.02
randy - i guess that's a good point, but by your own admission there aren't many of those games out there. if the only movies I knew about were action blockbusters then yes I probably would think that moviegoers were doing something that wasn't worthwhile.

i read that martian dreams article, and it seems to suffer from that "why doesn't everyone like what I like? It's so likeable" thing that comes up every now again in "the death of poetry" discussions, as well as the "future of the comic industry" discussions, and so on.

damn, i'm so confused now I have no idea what I'm trying to say anymore...

anyone got a link to this "nIghts" game that you're talking about?

m.
 
 
netbanshee
16:18 / 18.02.02
...glad to see an in-depth discussion of vid. games...

I would easily say that anyone who knocks them...really doesn't understand what was involved (whether its how to play them or what's going on). Being an interactive designer, I oftentimes shudder when I look at the complexity that's being pulled off to give you the experience. And nowadays, with AI routines, open-ended play, etc. it takes people with Phd's to look at it for a while before their confusion lifts. Making games, especially good ones, is such a creative talent. Reminds me of the countless hours I put in on my portfolio in my senior year (much moreso than any other major I ever encountered), while kids studying brain surgery at least got to stretch for a moment.

Also one has to keep in mind that there's two elements to the video game industry that hasn't been really discussed, the consumer audience (traditionally kids but changing) and the technological impact that they have had on all media that the modern consumer enjoys. Since the audience really started with kids, most of the business will be catering to themes for them. Look at nintendo for example...most of the software they develop is for the younger contingent of the gaming population. But when they have a good game, everyone talks about it. So there's a little rift between some adults and the typical audience. But as games develop more and more, watch for it to close rapidly.

And as far as the impact games have had, keep in mind that people like Steve Wozniack (co-founder of Apple) developed Breakout as he was treading in electronic territory. Also the graphics that you take for granted in movies, etc. all came from a video game perspective. I think since the tools are getting better today, people are better understanding what it takes to develop a game, program, even website. But it takes teams of very talented people working under very stressful deadlines to get a good modern game out.

Well..there's so much more to be said...just wanted to throw a few things out there...will b back...
 
 
netbanshee
03:46 / 19.02.02
Nights into Dreams

A link to zee game...pictues won't do it justice though. Hope you can get your hands on a saturn...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
17:09 / 19.02.02
if it takes a team of people with phd's 3 years to program a game which has the narrative conceptual innovation available to 3 year olds, it was a waste of fucking time talent technolgoy and money. it's exactly what hollywood does. if anyone told you their favorite movies were "Phantom Menace" "Tomb Raider" and "Armageddon" because of how expensive the special effects were, you'd piss on their grave.

it takes a phd a year to write a book outlining the statistical anomlies inherent in the chemical production of farm-grade fertilizer, but i'm not going to read that either.

i want art, man, i want something that blows my fucking mind, and with all that cash and tech being wielded by all those brilliant phd's, someone ought to deliver that.
 
 
Trijhaos
17:37 / 19.02.02
But I did like the phantom menace because of the special effects. You have to admit the story wasn't all that exciting. It just didn't have that Star Wars magic.

Phds's? That's a new one. One of the people who contributed to Black and White, a game that's supposed to be innovative, was a kid who won a chess tournament.
 
 
netbanshee
18:14 / 19.02.02
...matter of speech...basically what I'm saying isn't referrential to the quality of the games out there per se, but it often takes special people to even make a crappy one. It's not easy. Anyone who does it will agree. I'm just trying to dismantle the notion that "anyone" can do it but at the same time hold the industry accountable for its sometimes medioric output. People who have been "raised" on electronic entertainment and understand a bit about it should be put into a position to do something about it.

Now that said, who here is hiring? I may not have a doctorate in my back pocket but I know what good vid games are, and I have some decent ideas to help propel the medium into something less sophomoric...and it seems that some people here may be good for a team...
 
 
Trijhaos
18:46 / 19.02.02
I agree games aren't easy to make. If they were there would be a great deal of them out there.

There's some game creation tools that make it easier for people to make games, but there still aren't many out there.

Take Verge for example. It's basically an rpg game design engine, but there's not a glut of Final Fantasy 3 clones out there. Of course that could be because its basically a program that uses modified c programming.

As for companies hiring, I don't know. From what I've read though its easier to get in the door if you have artistic skills and creative ability. Programmers are a dime a dozen and people can be trained to program.
 
  

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