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video games- bastard children of the entertainment industry?

  
  

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Trijhaos
20:33 / 12.02.02
Why is it when you say that you play video games in your spare time, people look at you like you've grown an extra head. If you read books thats great; you're an intellectual. If you go to the theater or ballet you're cultured. If you watch TV or movies you're like the majority of people in the world. But the instant you say that you like to control the pixels on the television screen, people automatically think you're some sort of geeky troll-person with the social skills of an inebriated lemur.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:46 / 14.02.02
Fuck those people. Hand them a controller and watch them try to dodge objects on screen with their body, hands flail all over the place, their eyes widen, pulse quickens - that's if they have the hand eye cordination skills, can discern and keep up with the barrage of audio/visual information. Lots of people only see blurs, shapes and colors.

Unfortunately, you generally have to play video games to appreciate them. There's also tongue in cheek humor and tons of conventions we take for granted as gamers.

Does anybody remember spending months learning how to play Street Fighter 2 back in 91? Took me four months before I pulled off my first Dragon Punch. I'd been playing video games my entire life. I can pull off Dragon Punches and super combos in my sleep now.

Your a grown adult. Imagine your first video game is Capcom VS SNK. Yeah, right. And let's forget about playing the game entirely - you won't get any of the numerious tounge in cheek jokes, the intros won't make any sence, the interfaces will seems busy and complicated.

In short, gaming is a sub culture with sub cultures (PC gamer, Console gamer, Sports, Fighting, RPGs...) So how else would you expect people to react?

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Lord Rugal Ultimate ]
 
 
matsya
09:59 / 14.02.02
is it because, oh, i don't know....

all videogames are inherently limited to being meaningless boring repetitive shite with no true sense of characterisation or narrative, and perhaps that the logic which they require in order to become expert at them is a one-way dead-end pursuit that only results in you being good at games and nothing more, like cryptic crosswords or scrabble?

or perhaps it's the inherent juvenilia in the stories that the games follow?

just a thought...

m.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:59 / 14.02.02
quote:
all videogames are inherently limited to being meaningless boring repetitive shite with no true sense of characterisation or narrative, and perhaps that the logic which they require in order to become expert at them is a one-way dead-end pursuit that only results in you being good at games and nothing more, like cryptic crosswords or scrabble?

Fucking BULLSHIT.
 
 
Trijhaos
09:59 / 14.02.02
I'll admit most games don't have much in the way of decent characterization or narrative structure. How many times can you save the princess from some overly large reptile. But saying every game is like that is completely wrong. Take Planescape: Torment for example. Its got a story that could match most any book out there, the characters are well thought out and realized, and for once the goal of the game is not to defeat the big bad evil foozle, but find out the identity of the immortal nameless protagonist.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:59 / 14.02.02
Well people would think you were strange if you said you played any kind of games in your spare times. 'What do you do with your spare time?' 'I play Scrabble/Cluedo/ Monopoly/Bingo/Dungeons and Dragons'.

And I am going to i) second Matsya's post, ii) point out that Rugal does seem to be kind of confirming it, and iii) request more information about any counter-examples (i.e., Planetscape: Torment, a title I would laugh at in any entertainment medium). If anyone wants to describe enough about a game to convince us it's even comparable to average tee vee shows, you might convince non-gamers.
 
 
crogdad
09:59 / 14.02.02
yeah, the above is some major bullshite. To say that the medium is inherently boring, repetitive, or juvenile is some straight up ignorance. The gaming industry thrives on one thing.... innovation. Sure some of this is tied up little magic tricks... better lighting, atmospheric effects, blood gushing from specific hit zones, etc. But most of these energies are focused on bringing the gamer into the game. It's harder than it sounds. Some of the best design work going can be found in video games. As is some of the most elaborate programming and audio production. There's no improv going on in the creation of a game. It's cold science elevated into art. Even games that are repetitive can be beauty in motion. And games that are story based carry a weight that is truely unique.
What can I say? These things are often totally lost on the non-gamer.
"Try to remember, it's only a game."
 
 
moriarty
09:59 / 14.02.02
I've never been anything but a casual gamer, and for the past few years not even that, largely for the same reasons that I rarely watch TV. However, I'd like to echo Randy's comment that this is an infant medium, not yet reached anywhere near it's full potential. I have numerous friends who are involved in videogame production who feel the same way about videogames that I feel about comics. There is so much uncharted territory that anyone can become a visionary.
 
 
matsya
09:59 / 14.02.02
okay, so this game's got a really well thought-out background story, all told in the really big cool manual that you get with the game, and the point of the game isn't to rescue someone or blow up something, which is really quite immature when you think about it, instead you've got to FIND OUT SOMETHING instead.

but how do you do that? I'm prepared to admit that the stuff that's draped over the actual interaction engine or interface or whatever can be quite fascinating, but the bit where it's all "search for the solution to that puzzle so you can get to the next puzzle and search for THAT solution and when you get that you go to the next puzzle until it's the end, and there are some frickin' cool video sequences at the end of each puzzle" is what I'm talking about. it's. all. the. same. myst is the same as riven is the same as zork nemesis is the same as tomb raider is the same as fucking medievel is the same as silent hill or final fantasy or half-life or whatever you care to mention.

it's all levels. that's how computer games work. and levels makes it repetitive. and when i say levels I don't mean it's LITERALLY levels, but the story is revealed or told in stages. otherwise it wouldn't be a computer game. it'd be some kind of interactive movie or something, which ISN'T a game.

throw in a bit of strategy and stuff, it's still the same thing. they're all quests. And quests are limited in their appeal.

and i have to say the grinning skull on the opening page of the planescape game doesn't really do much to convince me the error of my opinion.

m.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: matsya ]
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:59 / 14.02.02
Who ever said video games need narritives or stories? THEY DON'T.

They're not always obtuse, conventional or self refrential either, anyone with half a brain can pick up and play Tetris or Pac Man and have a ball almost instantly.

It's simply imposible to critique video games unless you a gamer. So much of the experience resides in the skills required to play them, the intangable nature of gameplay and immersion, which by the way, was the point of my post.

Capcom VS SNK is used as an example as it's fast paced, visually intence, with lots of techniques and variations allowing for complex and creative game play. It's also among the most conventional and self refrential.

Fighting games are among the most sophistocated, intelligent and open ended games available. The fact that the Street Fighter series is still going strong after twelve years is a testament to how well the game plays, not how boring it is.

Just about every male I know and, increasingly, more and more females, play video games. %99 of them don't fit any 'gamer' stereotype either.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:59 / 14.02.02
Yet another gross generization. Video games aren't all quests either. Fighting, puzzle and abstract games like NiGHTS are played and replayed simply for the experience.

And considering the video game industry has just come off it's biggest year yet, I wouldn't write off the appeal of quests so easily either.

quote: 
For years I've fought tooth and nail to come this far, to the point that I have some immeasurably marginal degree of influence over how games are perceived--I'm a reviewer at a gaming publication and I have evidence that some people use my work to influence their buying decisions. As someone who is interested in the gaming industry's prosperity and longevity, it's my ultimate goal in life to get more people into playing games. Whether this is through my reviews or through actually working on a game design perhaps doesn't entirely matter to me, so much as the bottom line that I'm motivated to continue working in this industry by the knowledge that it keeps growing bigger, and I want to help it along its course.

Yet I know that the appeal of games isn't easy to explain, because the sensation and experience of playing games can't really be described. If I were to describe how I felt playing my favorite game, you perhaps could relate--say I'm down to a handful of hit points, so my life meter's almost empty and my mana meter already is, yet the boss I'm fighting is badly wounded too. Against all odds, I score a critical hit and barely manage to win! Great! You know how I feel. Someone who doesn't play games doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, though. If you told this Martian that games were intense and exciting, it would be confused--if games are so exciting, then why do most people just sit there staring blankly at them? Maybe you're a noisy, active gamer who yells at the screen and bangs his controller in frustration when he loses. Even if that's you, you're still not like that all the time--you mostly just stare, just like me.

Martian Dreams part 1 and 2.
 
 
Polly Trotsky
09:59 / 14.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Lord Rugal Ultimate:
It's simply imposible to critique video games unless you a gamer.

What? That's so ridiculous... like saying I can't critique serial killing without doing it.

If it is necessary, I'll go ahead and throw my hat, as a sometime gamer, in with matsya and note that in-game skills have little real world application. My ability to perform a 22-hit combo or a special team move isn't gonna help me out at my next evaluation. Unless I'm a professional gamer, I guess.

Capcom vs. SNK is hardly going to help make a case for open-ended creative play. It's action-intense, goal oriented, (fantasy) violent, and terribly short. And not very pretty either. Essentially, it's Pac-Man: defeat challenge A and move on to challenge B. More dense, sure.

I gave some thought to interesting games that both met Crunchy's criteria and evaded matsya's criticism. So far I've come up with the Sims and The Typing of the Dead.

The Sims is basically barbies with feedback. No goals unless you want them, multiple styles of play, heartlessly addictive, and even shows the capability of teaching the player rudimentary social skills. Whether those are good is another thing entirely.

The Typing of the Dead is an FPS game where one has to type words that appear onscreen in order to destroy zombies. For some reason, killing zombies is fun for gamers - prolly has something to do with gore+no moral ickiness. Last I read, some schools used it to teach kids to type.

If it's the social stigma that's bothering you, Trijhaos, just dazzle people with your social skills before mentioning gaming and you'll likely get bonus points.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: [Your Name Here] ]
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:59 / 14.02.02
OF COURSE most of the skills aquired in video games have no tangable real world application. To incinuate they have NONE WHATSOEVER is downright stupid.

FPS are used by the military for teamwork training. Pokemon teaches children memorization and association skills. Flight Sims are used to train pilots. Light Gun games improve your aim. Gamers are generally more visually astute and far more proficent with visual interfaces and computers than non gamers.

I disagree about CvSNK. Short, not pretty, yeah - so what? Deep as a well, lots of creativity within it's framework. The real meats against other players. Ya know, like more conventional games....22 hit combos? That's that other game, Marvel VS Capcom 2, the most visually insane game ever.

My brother absolutely hates video games and is obsessed with Grand Theft Auto 3. It was funny watching him get all freaked out playing Silent Hill 2, I wonder what would of happened if I wasn't in the room telling him what to do.

My buddys girl wasn't into his PS2 at all until she discovered Silent Hill 2. Now she makes him play for her viewing pleasure. (Must be the four diseased mannequin legs sown unto a headless torso, with it's mutilated female genetalia, wrapped in a shiny plastic sheen) gets the ladies every time, I tell ya.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:59 / 14.02.02
Actually, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say only gamers can critique games. Just like only fishermen could critique fishing rods. I'm not interested in criticising either, because I'm just not interested in either. I have other hobbies.

Maybe people would be more accepting if you said you were into, say, digital or new media art, or interactive blah blah. Saying you're into video games strikes me as more like saying 'i'm into superhero comics' than 'i'm into comics', more like 'i like sitcoms' than 'i like tee vee'. That's not to say there aren't good sitcoms or superhero comics or video games, but if that's your big focus it's just a bit... weird... to non-fans.

I'm sorry I really want to make this post sound less judgemental but I have to go. Love you all, I have nothing against video games I just lack hand-eye coordination.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:59 / 14.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Lord Rugal Ultimate:
...and abstract games like NiGHTS are played and replayed simply for the experience.

are you talking NiGHTS into dreams?

love that game man. LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT.

So sweet and scary its making me cry right NOW!
 
 
Bear
09:59 / 14.02.02
The videogame market is getting bigger and bigger and is finally starting to loose the nerdy image....

saying that -

quote:all videogames are inherently limited to being meaningless boring repetitive shite with no true sense of characterisation or narrative

is utter shite...do you play games?


GTA3 is one of the best games out there...Final Fantasy has great stories and characters....

Some people just don't get games and thats fine... I don't really read french poetry but I'm not going to start criticising because I don't enjoy it....

I'm tired and this thread has pissed me off...

quote:but the story is revealed or told in stages.

You mean unlike movie, books,comics and plays

And quoting Myst as an example isn't the best choice since it came out in 1993

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: bear ]
 
 
RadJose
09:59 / 14.02.02
threadrot
hey veeyo game freekscheck out this! makes me laugh all the time!
end threadrot

last summer i got back into video games, they are more fun than ever... i don't know how i missed them for so long... i still can't get enough Craazy Taxi and Get Grind Radio...
 
 
Bear
09:59 / 14.02.02
Nice site I was more of a sega boy though in my younger years....liked the pic of Double Dragon though, brings back happy memories on the Amstrad specially the battle at the end when you had to fight your mate to get the girl
 
 
Trijhaos
09:59 / 14.02.02
I'm starting to see why gamers and games are treated the way they are. The minute someone questions their hobby, their first instinct is to act with agression and the use of expletives. It really doesn't make a good impression on people does it? Oh sure, they do eventually make more coherent arguments but after the bad first impression are they really going to be taken seriously?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
09:59 / 14.02.02
quote:Originally posted by [Your Name Here]:



Capcom vs. SNK is hardly going to help make a case for open-ended creative play. It's action-intense, goal oriented, (fantasy) violent, and terribly short. And not very pretty either. Essentially, it's Pac-Man: defeat challenge A and move on to challenge B. More dense, sure.



I'm going to have to disagree here. At first glance, it would appear that a simple fighting game like, say, Mortal Kombat 2, is anything but open-ended. There are only so many characters, so many different endings, so many different ways to move the figure on the screen...it's going to get incredibly boring after a while! It has too!

Well, no. I play that game all the time. Granted, it has to be against my brother, as we have both spent years playing that game and we are the only competition for each other. And it does get intense. Yes, there are only so many moves--but the game gets so much more interesting when both you and your opponent know every single one for every character. You would think otherwise, yes? Oddly enough, it only makes it more interesting. I'm not entirely sure how...I guess it forces you to have to think of different stratagies pretty quickly, and then think of more when your opponent figures out the antithesis. Eventually, it gets to be more like a game of chess than a video game (well, speed chess, anyway. Ya gotta be quick). That's why I don't get bored with it. Granted, it takes a good deal of time to get to this level, and if my brother and I were not so competitive at stupid things like this, we probably wouldn't have reached it.

I love chess. Great game. Of course, the pieces can only move in so many different ways, no exceptions, same as a video game, but the game is still as addictive as crack. Especially when you start getting good. That's what MK2 has become for myself and my brother. If we play anyone else, it becomes incredibly boring very quickly. Because it turns into a boring fight. If I play anyone but else, it's so...predictable. When we play, we look ahead at least three or four moves. That's as much as I can see ahead in chess. Eventually, in games like these, games like MK2 or CvsSNK, you start to think in moves. It's impossible on many of these games to attack at the same time and both hit at the same time, so it actually does operate in one turn after the other.

Damn, I really didn't mean to write this much.
 
 
Bear
09:59 / 14.02.02
quote:their first instinct is to act with agression and the use of expletives

Its hardly suprising really just human nature, I'm sure there would be some bitchy comments if someone went to the comic threads staying people who read them were immature - or went to the magick thread and started spouting off about it not being real...

It gets under your skin and sometimes its hard to rise above it (see most other boards fighting about whether Limp Bizkit are the greastest)...

But I enjoy games and find them entertaining and thats that... to each their own.. whatever floats your boat etc...
 
 
Trijhaos
09:59 / 14.02.02
I enjoy games but if someone says that they're a waste of time or nonproductive or the like, I am not going to run screaming expletives at them and attempt to scratch out their eyes.

If someone were to come up to me and say "magick isn't real", "comics are for children" or "Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids" I'd just shrug, say "That's your opinion" and be done with it, or if I were feeling generous I would attempt to educate the poor misguided soul.

Limp Bizkit? Those poor misguided souls, they must learn that the one true music is that of the goddess Christina Aguilera.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Trijhaos ]
 
 
Bear
09:59 / 14.02.02
Christina Aguilera!!! Fuk Off !! come here so I can get near you eyes ! everyone knows that Britney is greatest !

One day games will get the kudos they deserve maybe when they start making games that look like the Matrix
 
 
Trijhaos
09:59 / 14.02.02
But, but Briney's sooooo fake. She had to resort to a boob job because her "fans" had seen the light and come over to the one true religion, wait scratch that, I mean become fans of the greatest pop star ever.

I think games may actually get the attention they deserve when they provide complete interactivity. No matter, how non-linear there's only so many solutions to a puzzle or ways to defeat an enemy. I think when people will be able to solve a puzzle any way they like, whether that's through actually solving the thing or blasting it with c-4, then games may get the accolades they derserve.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Trijhaos ]
 
 
Bear
10:05 / 14.02.02
I believe that Deus Ex is pretty much open endend on how you play it but like mentioned before there still goals, although it does sound rather good...

How about Metal Gear 2 - Its not out here yet but I've been playing the demo and it seems amazing, very Hollywood...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:29 / 14.02.02
Hey Bear: you said this:

saying that -


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all videogames are inherently limited to being meaningless boring repetitive shite with no true sense of characterisation or narrative
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is utter shite...do you play games?

GTA3 is one of the best games out there...

----------------------------------------

I'm sorry Bear but GTA3 is guilty of being repetitve etc. Its a fun game to play but it breaks no new ground and is part of a rather basic, dull franchise.

In my defence: I do play games and I have worked in the industry.

its now more and more difficult for development companies to produce innovative games because of the franchise problem. If you don't have one, your game won't sell. If the industry had continued from where Attack of the Killer Llamas left off then we might be playing more interesting fayre than David Beckhams penalty fuckshoot or whatever.
 
 
Bear
10:38 / 14.02.02
I didn't really mean that GTA 3 was innovative, but like you said its fun to play....

I guess Rez is innovative but its also not very good, well what I played of it
 
 
Baz Auckland
12:34 / 14.02.02
I just have to add that the Civilization games are not only horribly addictive and fun, but can be educational as well! (Even if you can skew history a bit with 'em)
 
 
Bear
12:40 / 14.02.02
As long as you don't add Mega-lo-mania into that theory, don't want the kiddies thinking cavemen had to battle ufo's or maybe we do actually....
 
 
Trijhaos
14:20 / 14.02.02
I tried Civilization but never got too far. Master of Magic, on the other hand, I beat quite a few times. Its Civilization with dragons, wyverns, and other magical trappings.

I've played Deus Ex and it is interesting and fairly open-eneded in how you accompolish the mission objectives.

MGS2? I haven't played it and until I get a job it'll be awhile before I do so. It does look fairly interesting so it looks like I better start practicing my sales pitch. "Do you want fries with that?"

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Trijhaos ]
 
 
matsya
19:46 / 14.02.02
good god. you're using streetfighter games as an example of the creativity and nonrepetitive nature of videogames?

beat this guy. then beat that guy. then beat that guy. then beat that guy. the end.

oh, but i only used kicking techniques to beat that guy this time.

i stand corrected.

m.
 
 
Trijhaos
19:53 / 14.02.02
Street Fighter is repetitive? Never! Sure you kick and punch to beat people but you can also use special techniques that are impossible for people who can't contort their hands into strange and arcane positions
to perform. I've learned the best way to play a fighting game is a little technique I like to call button-mashing. Eventually through your skill at mashing buttons as quickly as possible and a little prayer you too can come out on top of those arcade bullies.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:52 / 14.02.02
quote:Originally posted by matsya:
good god. you're using streetfighter games as an example of the creativity and nonrepetitive nature of videogames?

beat this guy. then beat that guy. then beat that guy. then beat that guy. the end.



He's got a point here. I get bored very quickly if I'm playing against the game with regards to games like Street Fighter and it's ilk. It falls into patterns to easily, becomes predictable...and there's no story involved whatsoever. Boring. Sure, you can do different moves, but they're really not all that hard to learn. And to what end? To beat it again with the same characters? That's why I can only play against other people to keep interested.

I also agree that games like Final Fantasy do become tiring. The plots aren't new and exciting, the vast majority involve finding treasure/destroying an evil presence of some kind. The best usually have a few neat twists, but that's it. I don't think you'll find a game where the hero tries to stop the impending catasrophe with anything but violence and a one on one battle. And while there is character development, it's usually from a one-sided character stereotype to a two-sided character stereotype. It develops, but not into something all that interesting.

But big fucking deal. Some people enjoy suspending disbelief for a few hours and getting caught up with a story involving simple characters. It's fast, cheap pleasure. It won't affect you like Requiem for a Dream will, or a Kafka book, that leaves you with something other than what you had beforehand. All it does is leave you in a good mood, which is all it's supposed to do. Nothing real deep, but sometimes that the best part.
 
 
Trijhaos
00:24 / 15.02.02
I like to think of video games as interactive sitcoms. They're fun to play, but don't try to read too far into them. Yes, I'm sure the hero of <insert name of game here> is a christ-like figure if you read into the damn game enough. But you wouldn't consider Eric from "That 70's Show" a christ-like figure would you? No, you wouldn't because its just a tv show just like games are games. If you want to read into and analyze something then go read a book.
 
 
matsya
01:51 / 15.02.02
trijhaus, you were the one saying why don't people take me seriously when I say I play computergames, and now you're saying that playing lots of computergames is like watching lots of sitcoms?

maybe THAT's why people don't take you seriously.

m.
 
  

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