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Marky Mark And The Monkey Bunch (planet of the apes - spoilers)

  
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
CameronStewart
15:27 / 29.07.01
Has anyone been to see the new Planet Of The Apes yet?

And if so, can you explain the - ahem - "shockeroo" twist ending to me? Because it doesn't make any fucking sense at all.

[ 03-08-2001: Message edited by: Tom Coates ]
 
 
Ganesh
15:31 / 29.07.01
Not out in the UK until August 17th, Cameron; please give a spoiler warning if you're gonna discuss this in detail...

"Oh no, I was wrong; it was Earth all along..."
 
 
rizla mission
17:28 / 29.07.01
So .. if it's out in the states, does anyone want to tell us in Europe whether it's a classic or a disaster?
 
 
CameronStewart
18:19 / 29.07.01
Ganesh - I would imagine that spoilers can and will follow, if anyone engages in this discussion. So your warning is now.

Rizla - it's pretty to look at, the ape makeup is impressive beyond reasonable expectation, but the story is limp, the characters entirely one-dimensional and uninteresting, and as I said above, the "twist" at the end is, as far as I can see, randomly drawn out of a hat - the twist is merely there out of a bizarre sense of obligation to include one, as the original did. But while the denouement of the original POTA was an integral part of the story and provided an essential piece of dramatic exposition, seemingly no effort at all was made to ensure that the new film's ending fit in with the established logic or even had any relevance to the story whatsoever. It's akin to watching "The Usual Suspects" and in the last few minutes having Verbal Kint be revealed as an alien from the future - utterly nonsensical.

And for the Tim Burton Appreciation League, it's not even worth much - it's the least "Burtonesque" of all his films (not much room for cartoon-goth imagery on a distant planet populated by monkeys) . It's pretty clear he was brought in as an eleventh-hour replacement, as it bears virtually none of his usual hallmarks...

Thumbs pretty far down.

[ 29-07-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:00 / 29.07.01
With regards to the make-up, and bearing in mind that I've only seen trailers and TV spots, it doesn't seem to be as effective or realistic as the original.
 
 
RexMonday
09:05 / 30.07.01
my take on the ending is that what happened on the apes' planet happened on earth also after however many years whalberg had been displaced, i.e. the apes eventually get smart enough to take control of the planet away from the humans.

but it's just a guess since the story gives you absolutely nothing to base any understanding on.

anyway, wasn't that the idea behind the sequels to the original? i havent seen any of those old movies since i was 10 or so, but i think that was the theory as to why earth became ruled by apes.
 
 
CameronStewart
09:47 / 30.07.01
Randy - No, the makeup in this version is ten times as effective and convincing as in the original. Unfortunately it's the reverse for the story.

ONCE MORE FOR THE THICK - HERE BE SPOILERS:


>>>my take on the ending is that what happened on the apes' planet happened on earth also after however many years whalberg had been displaced, i.e. the apes eventually get smart enough to take control of the planet away from the humans.<<<

No, because Wahlberg actually returns to his Earth's past - he's originally from 2029 but based on the cars, helicopters, clothing and so on that he encounters in the film's closing moments, he's travelled back to Earth circa 1990-2001. What's implied by the Lincoln Memorial is that somehow Thade escaped from his makeshift prison-cell (made of indestructible glass doors that can only be opened by Wahlberg's hand-print), builds a spaceship (or dredges up and repairs Wahlberg's pod), flies into the same freak space-storm, travels into the past, somehow makes his way to Earth and alters history, so that apes dominate Earth also.

It's a huuuuge quantum leap of logic to expect the audience to make, especially because it all happens off-camera and there's not a single bit of foreshadowing. It also makes zero sense that the new Earth-ape society's fashion, architecture and technology would develop in EXACTLY the same way as human society - the image of gorillas dressed in regular police unifoms getting out of ordinary police cruisers while chimpanzee newscrews swarm around him was utterly laughable.

And if the apes were so terrified of water, why the fuck would they build the huge reflecting pool in Washington DC?

Perhaps I'm over-analyzing what is, at the end of the day, probably meant to be no more than a stupid visual joke at the end of a movie, but it was so completely nonsensical and purposeless that it really pissed me off.
 
 
levon
09:47 / 30.07.01
I think the ending pretty much redeemed the rest of the movie for me. It put the premise of the movie in a different perspective that makes more sense (at least to me). If you go far enough to make the stretch that there is a planet where apes evolved from man, you might as well explore the different degrees of this incredible concept. I half expected for him to crash land on the planet of the chihuahuas or some other animal.

It was pretty interesting to see the Charlton Heston using his last bit of dying strength to hand Thade a gun.

Also, when the non-evolved chimpanzee came back to the spaceship, I was hoping that it was Jesus Christ instead. And then he'd kill everyone for defying Creationism.
 
 
CameronStewart
09:47 / 30.07.01
>>>If you go far enough to make the stretch that there is a planet where apes evolved from man,<<<

The apes didn't evolve from man - they evolved from the genetically-enhanced laboratory monkeys on board the downed space station.

And where, on a barren planet inhabited only by the descendents of either lab monkeys or humans (but I thought the lab monkeys killed all the humans on the space station?), did the bloody horses come from?!?!?

God, the more I think about it the angrier I get at how completely fucking stupid this movie was...

I gotta go rent the 1968 version to restore my faith in the concept.

[ 30-07-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Cop Killer
09:47 / 30.07.01
I actually thought the movie was really fucking good. If not for anything else than the extra little details of the Ape society (like when they're escaping from their cages and run past the teenage Apes sitting around in leather jackets and smoking a bong). I thought it was extremely entertaining, especially Chalrton Heston's role. The ending had to do with one of the sequels, I think the third or fourth, where the apes fix up the spaceship and travel to modern day L.A. and from that they make the society theirs. I don't think they built that stuff, I think they more or less changed it to fit them.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
11:39 / 30.07.01
As I was watching the beginning of the movie, I said to myself, "Why are they sending chimpanzees in spacepods instead of just sending remote-controlled vehicles?" Then I realized the reason was, "So that there will be monkeys." At that point I stopped worrying about where horses came from and such, and watched differently.

It thought it rated an "alright". I'll probably arrange to see the original sometime. (This is where I get crucified, methinks.)
 
 
CameronStewart
11:46 / 30.07.01
>>>The ending had to do with one of the sequels, I think the third or fourth, where the apes fix up the spaceship and travel to modern day L.A. and from that they make the society theirs. I don't think they built that stuff, I think they more or less changed it to fit them. <<<

But the Lincoln (now Thade) Memorial was built in 1865...
 
 
Jack Fear
12:37 / 30.07.01
Cameron: great thread title.

Sounds like they used the ending from Pierre Boulle's original novel, more or less--and IIRC, it was never really "explained" as such, it just was--a touch of the surreal, weird, freaky, and nightmarish.

Y'know, having just watched Unbreakable and been shitstruck at how it went off the rails in literally the last twenty seconds of the film, I've got to wonder: do we as filmgoers have a "right" to complain about a film's ending--especially a "twist" ending?

I'm just throwing ideas out, here. I wonder why we can't just surrender ourselves to the auctorial vision, and let the ending be what it is--which is, of course, just a series of images. What is it about film, in particular---its participatory, vicarious quality--that makes the endings of films the subject of such heated debate?

Who says fiction has to make "sense"? Why are we so hung up on "internal consistency"?

Consider the film not as a story, but film as art, film as film. Luis Buñuel's Planet of the Apes: why not?

And you mean Verbal Kint wasn't an alien from the future? I guess I completely misread that one...

[ 30-07-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Jack Fear
12:40 / 30.07.01
Oh, and this:
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
I gotta go rent the 1968 version to restore my faith in the concept.Man, you're just settin' yourself up for a fall. As with most things we remember fondly, the '68 PotA really just isn't all that good.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:58 / 30.07.01
Jack, I don't buy it. Planet of the Apes wasn't put together as an artistic "is because it is" - it was structured, as most films are, as a linear narrative. That being the case, it invites critical analysis as a linear narrative.

And it was complete shit. From inexplicable and annoying "glitches" (i.e. the horses) to glaring inconsistencies (a couple hundred humans apparently had no trouble at all traveling to the spot that Apes guard jealously - even though it was supposedly a deadly dangerous journey for our hero), to a thoroughly senseless "twist" ending.

They were _trying_ for something here, but it just felt like they didn't have the skill to make it work.

Not only that, but I have to agree with Cameron - there's nothing in this film of Burton's eye for style or strangeness. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody revealed that he hadn't actually directed it at all.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:06 / 30.07.01
>>>Sounds like they used the ending from Pierre Boulle's original novel, more or less<<<

As far as I know, not having read it, the end of the novel concerns the hero returning to Earth and being met by a huge military vehicle, out of which steps a humanoid ape general. It doesn't describe recognizable monuments replaced by ape versions, or an ape society that's exact to the minutest detail as our own.

And anyway, whether it's true to the novel or not, the '68 version's ending was brilliant - it made complete sense within the context of the film, added an entirely new dimension to the story, and made (admittedly not subtle, but still) an interesting cautionary point about nuclear war. Rod Serling was a smart, smart man and a great writer, and made a very wise choice to abandon the ending of the novel in favour of his own more elegant conclusion.

But I didn't expect the new version to have the same ending - it's probably the most widely-known "surprise" ending in film history (even the cover of the bloody video box depicts the Statue Of Liberty) - but I would have liked a little more care and thought to have gone into setting up the new end. Some kind of explanation as to how Thade escapes an apparently inescapable prison and irreconcilably fucks up Earth history would have been nice. I'm not asking for lengthy exposition, but something, [i]anything[i] to suggest that the ending had some sort of purpose and relevance, and not merely pointlessly tacked on.

>>>do we as filmgoers have a "right" to complain about a film's ending--especially a "twist" ending?<<<

"Right to complain" in the sense that we've been given a defective product and are entitled to recompense? No, I don't think so. But as Ray said, something like "Planet Of The Apes" isn't intended to be a work of art subject to personal interpretation (maybe if Kubrick had directed it... ) - it's a story being told and when it's not told well (i.e. doesn't make any sense) I believe criticism is fair game.

>>>Man, you're just settin' yourself up for a fall. As with most things we remember fondly, the '68 PotA really just isn't all that good<<<

Actually, I disagree - it's not been that long since I saw it last, so I'm not looking back through the haze of nostalgia. I still think it's a very clever and effective film (a little ham-fisted in places, but not nearly so much as Burton's). Yeah, some of the makeup and sets look a little dated, but I try never to judge things like that in comparison to modern standards - viewed in historical context it's still pretty impressive.
 
 
Ria
15:13 / 30.07.01
hi! I haven't even seen the re-make!

don't Hollywood sf movies specialize in total illogic and gratutious grandeur? (alliteration... couldn't resist...)

most(?) of the people who write sf and fantasy movies and tv have a tin ear when it comes to sf and fantasy and "know" "it doesn't have to make sense" (scientific sense, thematic sense, logical sense, etc.). of the minority who do they feel obliged to dumb it down... just a little...

one of the earlier drafts of the Planet re-make for example featured a caucasian(?!) female named Eve(?!!?) as humanity's progenitor. (yes, that version took place in the prehistoric past... quite clever, too.)
 
 
MJ-12
16:09 / 30.07.01
To those involved in the remake, I'd like to say

YOU MANIACS! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!
 
 
CameronStewart
16:35 / 30.07.01
An added thought to clarify:

>>>Sounds like they used the ending from Pierre Boulle's original novel, more or less--and IIRC, it was never really "explained" as such, it just was--a touch of the surreal, weird, freaky, and nightmarish.<<<

The problem with the new film is that they sort of half-way explain the new Ape-Earth - Thade did it, which is why he's sat atop the giant marble throne in place of Abe Lincoln. The thing that's really bothering me is that they don't make any reasonable explanation of how he did it.

If Wahlberg had come back to the new Ape-Earth, but there was no connection to Thade, (maybe depicting an anonymous ape as Lincoln instead of hammering the point home that it's meant to be Thade) I still doubt I would have been satisfied, but it at least wouldn't have been so blatantly nonsensical.

[ 30-07-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]

[ 30-07-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Cop Killer
09:29 / 31.07.01
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
>>>The ending had to do with one of the sequels, I think the third or fourth, where the apes fix up the spaceship and travel to modern day L.A. and from that they make the society theirs. I don't think they built that stuff, I think they more or less changed it to fit them. <<<

But the Lincoln (now Thade) Memorial was built in 1865...

Yeah, and I think what happened was that it was modified to the new image by apes.
 
 
CameronStewart
09:29 / 31.07.01
Ah.

Still crap.
 
 
levon
09:29 / 31.07.01
Actually the thing that bugged me about POTA more than the horses (give me a break guys, how do you think the space crew got all of their hamburgers?) were the shitty references to the original movie. You know "get your hand off of me you damn dirty human" and "damn them all to hell". That's the type of thing you see in a crappy sequel such as the Chris Tucker-less Friday 2. As for having hangups over minor details, I'd advise you to train yourselves to suspend your disbelief. It can only add more pleasure to your life.

P.S. at least it wasnt as bad as Sleepy Hollow
 
 
autopsy of a rockstar
17:52 / 31.07.01
Ape Lincoln? *sighs* You've GOT to be kidding me.
 
 
autopsy of a rockstar
17:53 / 31.07.01
Ape Lincoln? *sighs* You've GOT to be kidding me.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:07 / 31.07.01
Final word on the ending:
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2001-07/30/11.30.film

quote:Bruce Snyder, 20th Century Fox's head of distribution, talked to Zap2it.com about the controversial ending of Tim Burton's Planet of the Apes movie...

...Snyder told the site, "Actually, you're not supposed to be able to [explain it]. If the truth be known, it wasn't really supposed to make sense. It was just supposed to go 'whoa,' make you think. Now is he in another world, did he go back in time, did he get forward in time?"

Snyder added, "The reality is, there's no firm answer to that. It's whatever you want it to be. Everybody keeps looking for [the answer], but you've got to remember you just watched a movie about talking monkeys in outer space. Don't look for too much logic, you know."

I feel vindicated. And slightly nauseated.
 
 
SecretlyClarkKent
20:52 / 31.07.01
Jack Fear, I'm glad you posted that. I was actually on my way to do so as I was reading the thread. Now I don't have to. I hadn't, however, read the second part of that statement, and that was something else I was going to bring up.

A lot of people get so tied up in the details of films like Planet of the Apes, about the twist ending and such, that they don't even to stop and think about the fact that they're watching a movie about not only talking apes, but apes with a complete societal structure of their own. Yes, I do understand primates are intelligent... but they're not that intelligent, at this point. And, by the time, if there is ever a time, when they are that intelligent, and we're the slaves, more power to them.

In defense of Burton, I have to maintain that no, Planet of the Apes didn't contain a great deal of his iconic gothic imagery, but one of the great things about Burton, as far as I'm concerned, is his ability to create entirely new worlds to set his films in. And, as far as that goes, he succeeded with Planet of the Apes. And, there are still a few classic Burton atmospheres, specifically during the jungle/marsh scenes, the ape-like scarecrows.

The biggest problem with ever attempting a Planet-remake is that of how many people you have to satisfy. When there's a tug of war between a studio, a director, three credited screenwriters, an entire legion of fans and an in-depth cannon and history created by a novel, five films, two television series and endless other spin-offs, this is what you get. Something that falls short of everyone's expectations.

The fact that Snyder felt the need to publicly step up and speak out/defend the ending of the re-make only goes to show how much of the blame for it belongs to the studio executives. How often to execs speak out for or against plot threads in any films? Personally, I don't think I've ever seen it happen, or not that I can remember off the top of my head. The ending did feel extremely tacked-on, and it pissed me off. Overall, though, I enjoyed the film for what it was.

As for a sequel, I'm sure there will be one. Positive, actually. If they base it on the ending, though, I more than likely won't feel the need to see it, unless it's directed by Burton. Even then, I'll have my doubts. But, Burton remains to be among my favorite directors, and I'm hardly going to let this film knock him down a few notches.

Jared
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:06 / 01.08.01
While Markie Mark was on POTA trying to figue out how exactly He created the whole Ape society... THAT damn Monkey who was flying the ship actually made it into earth's past recreated history in his image then flew off into the stars to find his promised planet!!!

Meanwhile Captain Markie is flying through the reality shifting electro-storm and lands on on an earth based on His expectations of the earth he will land on criss-crossed with the Monkey planet he just came from...

essentailly creating a whole new world that mirrors the convolution of his experiences...

Basicly Markie is the Avatar of Shiva creating & Distroying worlds in the wake of his dance!!!

There!!! does everyone feel better now?

  
 
Jack Fear
12:28 / 01.08.01
Can't see the point of castigating a Tim Burton movie for a lack of internal logic, frank quitely. The boy's always found the mechanics of plot to be an inconvenience in the way of his visuals. It's all about the purty pitchers: it is what it is.
 
 
grant
14:18 / 01.08.01
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
I gotta go rent the 1968 version to restore my faith in the concept.


Better yet: read the Pierre Boulle novel. It came first and seems to have followed the same arc - astronaut goes to distant planet where APES RULE, has adventures, returns to Earth with lovely mute human woman, lands and discovers APES RULE EARTH as well!!!
Only there's also a framing story with a nice twist in it too.
I haven't seen the movie, but for once don't care about spoilers.
In the book, it's stated that many years have passed due to the relativity thing with the near-light-speed travel. Generations have gone by. And now, APES RULE.

If the movie is to succeed as a work of art, it must have the Kinks song "Ape Man" over the final credits. I'm betting it doesn't.

Unk.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
14:31 / 01.08.01
Jack, I didn't buy it from you and I don't buy it from Snyder - it just sounds like a weak after-the-fact defence of an incomprehensible ending. "We meant to do that." Yeah, sure. Just like they meant for the majority of the actors playing humans to be wooden, inane, and generally useless.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:56 / 01.08.01
If you went to a Tim Burton movie--Tim "Mars Attacks!" Burton, Tim "Sleepy Hollow" Burton--expecting decent performances and a coherent plot, then you have no one but yourself to blame.

Even his best films have succeeded more by their look than their lucidity. I believe that Burton (like George Lucas, another withdrawn, dreamy, visually-oriented filmmaker) is simply not interested in actors, or is uncomfortable around them, and has little use for plot except as a means to push the visuals along. He is what he is, and it's his film.

Mother a weed, father a weed--do you expect the daughter to be an orchid?
 
 
Jamieon
15:13 / 01.08.01
All too true.

But "Geg! Geg!" is inspired genius....


I imagine them all sitting round at one of the production meetings, and someone turns to Burton muttering something about how they've "Errr... found this sound....."
 
 
z3r0
15:48 / 01.08.01
I love spoilers. SPOIL IT MORE!
Even more if they're about some commercial hollywood movie, it's like "oh, yeah? there is a twist in the end that makes no sense at all??who fucking cares???
I'm gonna watch Ape Planet (it starts here at Aug. 03) already knowing that it's gonna be eye candy and nothing more.
I'm the guy who paid R$10 to see Tomb Raider, ten fucking reais, for common sense's sake...
 
 
grant
16:18 / 01.08.01
Next time I promise I read the whole thread before posting.

But still: The Kinks.

Unk.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
23:08 / 01.08.01
I liked Sleepy Hollow.
 
  

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