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COMIC BOOK CLUB: Watchmen and beyond

 
  

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Spatula Clarke
22:01 / 15.02.02
(This was going to be a contribution to Recommended Reading for Beginners, but I've started a new thread with it for two reasons. Firstly, my post was just too damn long, and wasn't really suited to that thread. Secondly, I don't think we've ever had a proper dissection and analysis of this book, and I'd really love to get involved in one. So, I figured that as we've got a series of regular threads in the Books forum for this kind of thing, maybe we could start one up in this forum, too. Maybe. If anyone else is interested.)

Broken record time, as Randy yet again shows that he knows little of comics outside of the work of Alan Moore.

Oh, and SPOILERS, just in case...

Watchmen. I'll recommend it as a graphic novel, that being the format that's most readily available. This was where I started out with comics, and I'm currently having a thorough re-read of it. It takes the theme that most non-comics savvy people associate with the medium - the superhero, the masked vigilante - and fucks it. It's the JLA if the JLA were real.

This book works on so many levels. You don't have to know anything about how comics normally function to 'get' it, but doing so can enhance the experience even more.

Each and every panel contains hints, references to other things going on in the story. They're probably obvious to everyone here by now. Nostalgia perfume. The newspaper headlines. The pirate comic. The graffiti lovers. The ever-present Doomsday Clock motif. Posters. The End Is Nigh.

In one tiny, apparently insignificant panel, for example, there are four completely separate narratives going on that all link together in some way. You've got the newsvendor talking to the kid, saying, "You never know. You never know what's bearing down on you." The kid's reading the pirate comic, the caption to which is "Beneath my raft, something moved." Behind them, Rorschach is going to pick up the note that will lead to his capture. In front of them is the Institute Of Extraspatial Studies, the research from which will become hugely important to both the overall story and the lives of each of these three characters.

That's one panel.

It doesn't just happen on this micro scale, either. Fearful Symmetry is the most stunningly scripted comic that I've read. Panels bleed in to each other, both in terms of composition and theme. A lesser writer would have trouble keeping the story as the most important element when trying to pull off tricks like these, but in Watchmen it feels effortless.

I've read it a number of times now, but there are still plenty of things I'm only just noticing. Like the way that the mariner in the [i]Tales Of The Black Freighter[i] story represents Veidt:

quote:...we experience the frantic mariner's torment at the knowledge that while he is trapped on his island, the bestial crew of the Freighter are surely bearing down upon his town, his home, his wife and his children. Driven by his burning desire to avert this calamity, we see the mariner finally escape from the island by what may be one of the most striking and horrific devices thus far in pirate comic books... we see the increasingly distraught and disheveled mariner trying desperately to reach his home, even resorting to murder to acquire a horse for himself. In the final scenes, thanks to the skillful interplay of text and pictures, we see that the mariner, though he has escaped from his island, is in the end marooned from the rest of humanity in a much more terrible fashion.

This all happens to Veidt. He sees the war bearing down on the world that he loves, and wants to avert it. His desperation drives him to a solution that may be just as inhumane. He kills those he's hired to help him achieve his aim, in order that the plan can go ahead as intended. In the end, he sacrifices his own humanity for the sake of human kind. He can no longer be a part of the world he's strived to save.

The pages at the end of each issue/chapter are all like this; each section contains some of the foundations for the story that Moore is building and each also contains elements that are massively symbolic of the issues that the characters have to deal with.

I only noticed this next one today. The psychologist's report on Rorschach at the end of The Abyss Gazes Also includes a piece supposedly written by Kovacs when he was a child.

quote:I like President Truman, the way Dad would of wanted me to. He dropped the atom bomb on Japan and saved millions of lives because if he hadn't, then there would of been a lot more war than there was and more people would of been killed. I think it was a good thing to drop the atomic bomb on Japan.

This attitude is completely different to how he reacts when he's actual there to witness a similar act. Veidt does it; he drops the atom bomb on Japan in order to stop the war.

The whole book has astonishing depth. It just couldn't be done in any other medium.
 
 
Not Here Still
15:42 / 16.02.02
Love the idea Randy.

Already read Watchmen myself, and am willing to re-read. One point tho' - wouldn't it be better to wait until people had bought and read Watchmen before jumping in to discuss it?

Will be up for this thread whatever though.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:55 / 16.02.02
I'm just a bit reluctant to delete my previous post as I'll undoubtedly forget every point made in it.

I always used to look forwards to the annotations for each issue of The Invisibles that would appear on the Nexus. Would you be up for taking each chapter at a time? Re-read the whole thing, then post annotations for each chapter every two weeks? Or would that take too long? It just strikes me that there's so much material in Watchmen that one thread can't do it justice.

If anyone else is interested, maybe we could make this a regular thing. I was thinking of maybe doing an annotated Flex Mentallo next.

Is anyone else even slightly interested in this?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:03 / 17.02.02
You mean like this?

I am very fond of the idea of doing the annotated Watchmen. I wasn't around back when you all did the Invisibles annotations, but can't help but feel we should do them for the New X-Men and X-Force as well.

I've been revisiting my Doom Patrols, and would be very willing to help put together an Annotated Doom Patrol...

This would all work well with Moriarty's masterplan...
 
 
moriarty
01:01 / 17.02.02
Shhh.

Got your Watchmen annotations and Doom Patrol annotations right here. Can't vouch for the quality, though.

I remember when Marvel Boy first came out someone on the board started annotations for it. An X-Men or X-Force one would be fun, I'm betting.
 
 
bio k9
06:46 / 17.02.02
There was an article in Savant a while back about monthlies vs trades and they used Watchmen as an example. Im too lazy to search for the article and I don't remember exactly what they said but I remember agreeing with it so I'm just going to represent what I do remember as my own (is that so wrong? Probably). Here goes:

I think works better as individual issues than it does as a graphic novel. Not because of any shortcomings in the story but because of the wait. If you were reading this back in 86(?) when it came out you would have had to wait a month for each issue to hit the stands. That gives you 30 days to pour over each issue rather than just flying through the entire book to see what happens next. Monthly installments force you to take it slow and go back over the previous issues so you can remember exactly what has happened. If we can get a three page thread out of an issue of NXM in which nothing major happens, imagine what we could do with this as a monthly. And when the story is broken up it makes you wonder WHAT HAPPENS NOW?!

An example:

S.ome
P.eople
O.ughta
I.mprovise
L.ittle
E.ntertaining
R.outines
S.ometimes

Chapter XI
Pages 26, 27 & 28

Ozymandias: "Teleported to New York, my creature's death would trigger mechanisms within its massive brain, cloned from a human sensitive... The resultant shockwave killing half the city."

Nite-Owl: "Adrian, I'm sorry...you need help. I know this "half New York" stuff is bullshit, but I'm still glad we got here before you got deeper into this mess. Christ, you seriously planned all this mad scientist stuff? I mean, when was this hopeless black fantasy supposed to happen? When were you planning to do it?"

Ozymandias: "'Do it?" Dan, I'm not a Republic Serial villian. Do you seriously think I'd explain my masterstroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago."

Cut to our familiar little street corner being vaporized.

End of Chapter XI.

Now imagine having to wait 30 days to read the ending. Fucking brilliant.
 
 
Steve Block
13:42 / 17.02.02
Just want to second the idea of reading through and discussin works like Watchmen and so on. I am aware that annotation sites exist for a lot of the 'good' stuff already, but I think part of the fun that comes from discussing the stuff is the actual discussion. Apart from Watchmen and Flex, as I'm not reading X-Men or X-Force, stuff I'd like to offer up for later down the line is Shade and Ghost World. Just to get other points of view. I think it's a great idea.

And one final added thought...question...when is the Watchmen read through starting?

[ 17-02-2002: Message edited by: Steve Block ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:46 / 17.02.02
Do you really think Ghost World lends itself to annotation? I don't know - I can see maybe Velvet Glove, David Boring, or Eightball 22, but Ghost World just seems so easy to grasp and straightfoward.

I'd be up for Shade, but I unfortunately am missing nearly the entirety of the first half of the run, so I can't be very useful. At first, anyway...
 
 
sleazenation
14:11 / 17.02.02
quote: End of Chapter XI.

Now imagine having to wait 30 days to read the ending. Fucking brilliant.


Not really. After all Bryan Talbot did the same thing with the adventures of Luther Arkwright with the first thrid being collected into a graphic novel in 1982 and ending with the death of the title character. The audience then had to wait 5 WHOLE YEARS to find out what happened next with the next vol.

Cliff hangar endings are not solely the province of the short pamphlets we know as comics but are endemic to all serialised narratives regardless of length.
 
 
Captain Zoom
14:14 / 17.02.02
I'm in for this. Gimme a few days to re-read it and then I'll be back. Also, sooo into an annotated X-men. Perhaps a Doom Patrol as well.

I miss the old days of the invisibles annotations too ERD. Was cruising through the Bomb a few days ago marvelling at it.

Zoom.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:23 / 17.02.02
I think that we should definitely start up annotations for NXM and X-Force, because a) there certainly is enough people with an interest in giving a close reading to both series b) they are still new and monthly, not to mention commonly found, cutting us a bit of slack that something old like Doom Patrol would not afford us and c) we've already got tons of stuff that can be turned into annotations for those series in the can already, we've got a detailed thread for every issue of both series thus far.
 
 
Steve Block
14:46 / 17.02.02
Ghost World, yeah, maybe annotations are a bit strong, but book clubs read anything, so why can't we open up and read anything? Do we have to annotate it all? Just discuss themes and what's happening. Maybe Shade is a bit old, I suppose it would have to be stuff that is readily available.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:53 / 17.02.02
I'd be up for a close group reading of a Clowes comic, but not Ghost World - I'm just burned out on Ghost World, personally. How about David Boring? I think David Boring would really benefit from something like this, there's a lot more to be read into that story, I think I would be more interested to hear other people's interpretations of that story.

In the case of Clowes, it really should be done in the Clowes thread, which is intended to be a running dialogue/commentary on the man and his work...
 
 
Steve Block
18:25 / 17.02.02
Okay, David Boring. Give me a while to buy it, though. I've only read Ghost World and Eightball 22.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:48 / 21.03.04
Apologies for the bump, but I just remembered this and wondered if there was any current interest, because it's not like it came to anything originally. If not in Watchmen, then possibly something else - if anyone's had their issues of whatever it is nicked, are at work, lost them while moving house or whatever then they can probably find scans on the 'Net that'll allow them to get involved.

Note: not suggesting people nab stuff they don't already own or stick links up here.
 
 
sleazenation
00:12 / 22.03.04
I'd be up for a revival of this. It could be a great way to make the comics forum less of a ghetto and give comics curious people an 'in'

As for what to cover, there was some suggestion of looking at The Essential Fantastic Four. I still think everyone should read Persepolis, cos its great and its a graphic novel deserving of a wider readership, but its prolly worth thinking about doing a Clowes collection too. Anyone got a book they have been intending to try but never got round to it? this could be the time...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
02:34 / 22.03.04
been thinking about re-reading Watchmen for quite awhile, so this is as good as anything.

how do we go about this? read a chapter a week and post thoughts and notes every Saturday or something?
 
 
Krug
15:11 / 22.03.04
I'm in.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:28 / 22.03.04
Essential FF sounds like fun!

I'll skip the Watchmen, though. If I could go my entire life without ever reading or thinking about that book again, I'd be rather happy about that.
 
 
bigsunnydavros
15:37 / 22.03.04
I'm good for pretty much everything that's been suggested so far. The idea of doing either the FF or David Boring excites me muchly, but I've been meaning to re-read Watchmen for a while now, so if you decide to give that a go, by all means count me in!

Not sure about how these sort of things work - the practical side of my brain is out of order at the moment...

Matthew - you love Alan Moore you do. He's your best friend.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:40 / 22.03.04
Hey, I like the Watchmen a lot. I'm just really sick of it, and I have more than a little resentment for it. I don't see any particular point in spending so much time talking about it now, since it's been placed under the microscope so many times over. It would be more fun to do this kind of group reading with something less obvious.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:45 / 22.03.04
Because, y'know, it's kinda like doing a music club and starting off with Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band, or kicking off a movie club with Citizen Kane.
 
 
sleazenation
15:59 / 22.03.04
Shouldn't this comics club be about more than just a close reading of a text? Isn't it also an opportunity for many 'non-comics' people to try out stuff and talk about it?
 
 
bigsunnydavros
16:07 / 22.03.04
Matthew: yeah, I get what you mean, and I'd agree with you - it is a little obvious as far as starting points go. Still, if people want to start of with it, then I'll definitely pitch in cos I really like the idea of getting this whole Comic Book Club thing rolling.

I also really like the suggestion that 'non-comics' folk get involved too -that would be interesting and fun!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:45 / 22.03.04
Well, if it's about bringing in new people, why do it with Watchmen? That's been the "oh, let's get non-comics people to read this book" thing for years, and look all the good THAT has done. Fuck the Watchmen and the goddamn Dark Knight Returns. It's 2004! Let's move on.
 
 
■
17:14 / 22.03.04
Flux: Because, y'know, it's kinda like doing a music club and starting off with Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band, or kicking off a movie club with Citizen Kane.
Yeah, see your point, but for the same reason that a lot of film clubs and courses DO start off with Citizen Kane, Watchmen is worth starting with as it exhibits a large number of the philosophies and processes that wnt into making it. They both have a lot which informs the modern film/comic. Yes, it's old, and hopefully people will be more interested in other, newer stuff, but it is easy to get hold of and I reckon it's a good jumping on point, especially for 'non-comic' readers (whoever they are and what the hell are they doing on Barbelith beats me I must say.)
 
 
■
17:22 / 22.03.04
I started reading it yesterday (ooh, what are the odds, eh?) and I can't wait for you lot to latch on to the name of one of the original villans. Invisibles as Watchmen worship, anyone?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:35 / 22.03.04
I really wish that the Watchmen would stop being the ambassador to the non-comics world. I don't think it is coincidental that ever since that, the Dark Knight Returns, and the Sandman became the Respectable Face Of Comics/The First Comic We Give To Non Comics Readers general readership of comics has plummeted yearly.

How about something without superheroes? Or, making a compromise, a comic without DEPRESSED superheroes? Something a bit more Joycore would be fantabulous.
 
 
Aertho
18:38 / 22.03.04
Why not promote Grant Morrison's NXM run to the masses? It's culturally relevant, and operates more cohesively than the Invisibles.

I agree that Wathcmen, while timeless, isn't necessarily the best medium for conveying the struggle and mindsets of superheroics. I feels almost post-mature, whereas NXM is all about the maturation process.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:44 / 22.03.04
I say we throw Going Home on the table just to shut the hell up any and all Sim-Bashers in the vicinity.

But, barring that, my vote is with Essential Fantastic Four. This board needs more FUN.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:48 / 22.03.04
I've never read any Cerebus, so you could get me interested in that.

But Ultimate FF would just be so much FUN. FUN! Remember fun?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:49 / 22.03.04
Also, if we do Ultimate FF, Persephone will probably join in! That would rock.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:49 / 22.03.04
Damn it! I meant ESSENTIAL FF in both of those posts. I'd like to stay far, far away from Ultimate FF, thank you.
 
 
sleazenation
18:51 / 22.03.04
In which case I say again lets go for Persepolis which is both fun and spectacularly non-mainstream without even a hint of superheroes.


I'm all for promotion of a wide variety of comics and by no means think Watchmen is the be all and end all of superhero comics but it is still historically and artistically important, comic - kind of like Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four.
 
 
sleazenation
18:54 / 22.03.04
Chesed- For pity's sake its not like there is a shortage of threads on Grant's X-men already here - lets try something different shall we?

I really do think Essential fantastic four would be interesting to look at - and its great value... and getting perseph to post on it would indeed rock.
 
  

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