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Underground > Comic Books >

The Ultimate Ultimates???

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Lennox The Grey Man

18:08 / 03.02.02

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Any comments?

"ultimate" l e n n o x

19:31 / 04.02.02

Has anybody gotten this? Was it any good?

19:34 / 04.02.02

I liked it. It was entirely set in the bum-end of World War II, setting up the new take on Captain America. Boys Own bollocks with a Saving Private Ryan sheen. Not spectacular, but fun. Of course, Hitch's art is gorgeous.

19:49 / 04.02.02

That's not supposed to be Mjolnir Thor's holding is it? What Thor is holding looks like a battle-axe not a hammer.

the knowledge +1

04:50 / 05.02.02

It was alright. I hope it gets better.

A whole issue dictated by a WW2 adventure tale is not a good way to start a series me thinks.

06:21 / 05.02.02

I think it was okay. Sparky dialogue, Captain America coming across as the cornfed twat he should be, Bucky as a war correspondent, and some nice doodlings. Fairly pleasant way to spend 15 minutes.

Don't like that shiny paper, though. When I've read my comics I like to cut them up for toilet paper, and that high-grade paper just doesn't work.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

11:28 / 05.02.02

My problem with this (and all the Ultimate books to be honest) is that they take too damn long to get to the point.

If these are entry books for new fans, why do they have to buy 6 - 12 comics to get a complete story? It's great for those of us who trek to the shops every week like lemmings, but for the kid who gets $5 from their allowance to have to do the same thing for 6 months is a bad idea, IMHO.

Matthew Fluxington

11:57 / 05.02.02

If these are entry books for new fans, why do they have to buy 6 - 12 comics to get a complete story? It's great for those of us who trek to the shops every week...

I agree. I can't find anything about the Ultimate comics, from the way the stories are structured into long drawn-out storyarcs rather than individual issues, to the choice of artists (Bagley too bland, Kuberts too fatbeardy) to the hideous graphic design that couldn't possibly appeal to anyone other than the people who already buy superhero comics regularly - much less young children! Haven't these people ever watched MTV, seen a video game, a modern magazine, or popular children's animated characters?

Why would you try to sell comics which require such patience (in terms of shipping and waiting for resolutions in cliffhangers) to a demographic of kids with ADD? Why would you start off a series aimed at kids with a loooooooooong flashback sequence in which a lead character does not even appear til the end of the issue, and the other leads don't even make an appearance save for a brief out-of-costume Iron Man? This is all well and good for the older segment of the audience, and I wouldn't even call them on this if they didn't make so much noise about the Ultimate line being for the 'kids'.

The Ultimate line is successful in one thing: getting morons like me to buy a Captain America comic against their better judgement by enticing them with Bryan Hitch and Mark Millar...

12:13 / 05.02.02

Is the Ultimate line for kids? I didn't know that. But then, this is the first one I'e picked up. Didn't particularly notice any aspect more aimed to younger readers than most of the Marvel stuff. By the way, what is the deal with all the Marvel imprints, these days? What's aimed at who? I don't really keep up, I'm afraid.

12:14 / 05.02.02

And before that old row flares up again, yes, I know all superhero comics are for kids. It's a serious question about the imprints.

Matthew Fluxington

12:29 / 05.02.02

The Ultimate line, according to Marvel's press releases and interview statements, is aimed at younger readers, and people from outside of the comics buying public - it's meant to be an easily accessable and modern version of its characters that doesn't rely on old continuity.

The MAX line is the R-Rated line, it's designed for aging fatbeards who want to see Black Widow's breasts, see Nick Fury swear, and have Power Man have anal sex with drunk depressed girls.

The Marvel Knights line is for darker, more serious takes on Marvel has-beens and 'street' characters like Daredevil and Punisher. This line is also geared towards creators, and gives them a greater deal of creative freedom. Fun fact: Marvel doesn't actually publish this stuff, it's really Quesada's old Event Comics with a different name.

There's the Marvel Mangaverse line, which takes the old superheroes and makes them into cute and violent Manga-style comics.

Then there's the regular Marvel line, which is apparently aimed at a general audience, but there's a lot of variation between lame Fabian Nicieza/Tom Defalco/Kurt Busiek retro mainstream crap and interesting stuff like Grant Morrison New X-Men and Pete Milligan X-Force.

13:01 / 05.02.02

Gosh. And do they try to maintain continuity between the likes of Marvel Knights, MAX and the regular stuff these days?

Professor Silly

17:47 / 05.02.02

I can't speak for others...'cause I'm not them.

That said, I think Marvel has failed to make the Ultimate line for kids.

The Ultimate Spider-Man, the first in this line, has come the closest so far to this ideal (and that's not to say they hit the mark...just that it came closer than the other Ultimate books).

Yet I, not a kid except in the most abstract sense of the term, really enjoyed reading this comic. I picked up the Ultimate X-Men trade and enjoyed it as well (as did my wife, a librarian).

One might say that the Ultimate line appeals to fans of science fiction (as both my wife and I love the Dune series as well as such books as Snowcrash and Ender's Game), continuity be damned...but then one can say all sorts of crazy things.

That said, I really enjoyed The Ultimates. The artwork was simply mindbending...and the overall flow kept me engaged. Would a kid enjoy it? I dunno...I'm not a kid.

Then you have the "adult line"--the Max line has seemed pretty shitty so far...shock for the sake of shock. So if the line designed for kids is appealing to me as an adult, and the adult line seems to appeal to the younger folk like Knowledge...what does that say about Marvel?!?

The Natural Way

06:34 / 06.02.02

Well, I'm pretty sure my little bro and his friends will like it....

They might wish it was a bit longer, but they'll still think it rocks. There's a lot of talk about 'what the kids want' around here, but how many of you can back this stuff up?

That said, I'm all for most of the changes suggested by Flux.

The Natural Way

12:51 / 19.03.02

My kid bro and his mates love it. They spazzed for Iron Man, and really don't care about all the dialogue.

S'movie, innit? They know the action'll come hard and fast soon.

I am also loving it. Much fun. Haven't got any clever reasons, etc - I'm just a bigbaby.

22:42 / 20.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Sax:
Don't like that shiny paper, though. When I've read my comics I like to cut them up for toilet paper, and that high-grade paper just doesn't work.

The return of the dreaded BROWN COMIC!!!

Horus lord of force and fire

22:03 / 28.03.02

And this is an absolutely beautiful comic - the art is amazing. That page of a naked giant man towering over all the 'normal' people was wonderous.

Matthew Fluxington

22:12 / 28.03.02

I like it a lot too, the new issue was pretty good. Hitch's artwork is fantastic, I just adore his style and technique. I am growing weary of how slowly the story is moving, I sorta feel that the comic is meant only for older readers, I can't imagine too many little kids getting into this. There's not even a villain!

05:53 / 30.03.02

I was asking the guy at the local shop about the Ultimate line being for kids and he said Marvel was aiming it at teenagers. Did they ever say they were aiming the books at "children" or just younger readers (because I imagine the average comic reader age is in the mid to upper 30s)?

Regardless, all the Ultimate books are moving slower than hell. I put Spiderman and the X-men on my only buy if there is absolutely nothing else list

15:18 / 31.03.02

God this thread is tiresome. Okay, I'm aware that what follows is a tad glib, but, frankly, if you care, see point 2.

Who's it aimed at?

1) Who cares!

What should it be doing?

2) Who gives a shit.

There is only one question that needs answering: is it entertaining?

By golly yes!

All this talk about target audiences and slowness is just starting to sound like so much prejudicial bollocks. Yeah sure, it's not remotely high-brow, granted it ain't balls to the wall, but honestly, who gives a shit? For me the Ultimates is a good fun read, comparable with the best action movies: hard, fast introduction before the credits, followed by numerous novel set-up sequences that contain more fun-filled information than any hollywood drivel.

"Slow" is a terribly lazy value judgement. One of my best friends happens to be Mr Dense Information and he loves it.

By the by, I'm most ceratinly not a beard.

16:50 / 31.03.02

Fast intro before the credits? Fine but at $6.75 for the first three issues this movies getting expensive real quick.

Its not that I dont like the comics, I just think they read better as trades.

Horus lord of force and fire

22:31 / 31.03.02

The thing about comics is that you get to keep them to re-read 'em. It would cost more for a DVD.

It really only depends on if you like to read your comics soap-opera style or not...

08:17 / 01.04.02

Work better as trades? Okay, so builders are a hard sell when you're only getting a monthly hit, but I hardly think that's a reason to not produce them, in the long run they often read more satisfactorily that over-dense action romps. Also, I think the Ultimates engages on other levels: the characterisation is some of the best I've seen in a main stream comic (Mark "Throwaway" Millar is really out-doing himself here); the scale is epic and full of portent; the plot makes numerous super-cool references: Captain America's tank, Iron Man's mind-scramblers; the character interaction is good and loaded with promise; hey, I'd even go out on a limb and argue that the pace helps build suspense.

Of course it's worth noting that when we say "slow" what we really mean is lacking in action - the big pay-off. To my mind, Millar's latest little excursion into the realm of super-violence (Captain America's escape sequence) was better than most uber-brawls of the last few years. Frankly I'm more than happy to be entertained in other ways so long as when I get my hit it comes huge, hard and fast. Some how I don't think Marky will disappoint.

09:41 / 01.04.02

Just to say, I'm immensely enjoying the Ultimates. Aside from New X-Men, it's the only comic I can be arsed to seek out properly any more. If you'd told me five years ago when I was a Vertigo whore that I'd be buying Marvel comics when I was 32 I'd have shoved a copy of Shade the Changing Man up your arse.

The Natural Way

12:17 / 02.05.02

"Hulk want Freddie Prinze Jr.!"

Totally agree w/ Bio about the trade thing (as does Hindermate, by the by), but still enjoy The Ultimates muchly.

So...how do we get Thor involved? Loki, anyone? I'm not sure Betty's quite herself at the moment.......

Murray Hamhandler

21:33 / 02.05.02

Just getting caught up on some of the Ultimate titles. I think that, not only are 'Ultimate X-Men' and 'The Ultimates' examples of some of Mark Millar's best work (and I'm a fan of his work in general), but they're also two of the more solid titles that I've read in a long time. In terms of story and consistency, 'Ultimate X-Men' far surpasses 'New X-Men', as far as I'm concerned. And 'The Ultimates', so far, looks to be on its way towards surpassing 'Ultimate X-Men'. No pretenses towards any sort of depth whatsoever and entertaining as all-get-out.
Arthur Sudnam, II

The Natural Way

09:39 / 03.05.02

For me, when Frank's drawing and Grant's writing, nothing surpasses NXM. But....in these Kordey infested times, Hitch's art and Millar's clean, slick scripts have started to win me over big time. Like Ultimate X-Men a lot, but 'snot a patch on NXM (art sucks for a start).

14:05 / 06.05.02

spoilers.....

...

...

new Ultimates was great. I love the portrayal of Banner as the brilliant failure, with his being the hulk playing out like a drug addiction. I like the fact that Thor doesn't want to join the team, because of the militiristic implications. I like Cap hunting down his old record collection. I like Giant Man being the only one who shows up for the press junkets.

good stuff.

runce, I hope you're right about Betty. they definitely don't want us to like her yet.....

The Knowledge

15:12 / 06.05.02

This is my favourite comic at the moment. Now I know how all those kids felt back in the sixties when they first started reading Avengers. Wonderful!

19:39 / 06.05.02

I'm loving THE ULTIMATES. Really enjoying ULT. X-MEN, and ULT. SPIDEY is FANTASTIC!!! Too bad ULT. TEAM UP got cancelled, but at least it was for the right reasons. Better to go out on top than to keep going if you feel quality will suffer if you continue. Bendis was overworked, and this is the best title for him to relinquish. And Marvel was cool enough not to continue TEAM UP without Bendis.

But Millar & Hitch are working true magic with THE ULTIMATES. ULTIMATES #3 was one of the best comics I've ever read in my life - that's in 18 years of comic reading!!!

Pick ULTIMATES up, Impulsivelad! There should be trade or hardcover soon collecting the first 4 or 5 issues.

00:09 / 07.05.02

>>>This is my favourite comic at the moment. Now I know how all those kids felt back in the sixties when they first started reading Avengers.<<<

Not really, because those kids back then got to see The Avengers actually DO something. The Ultimates is beautifully drawn and no mistake, but four entire chapters have gone by and not a sodding thing has happened.

All I can say is, after all this, ahem, "build-up," (read: faffing around), there better be one Christ-almighty payoff next issue...

Murray Hamhandler

01:14 / 07.05.02

Are we doing kids a disservice by assuming that they just want to see their superheroes smashing stuff up? The story is much more well-written and engaging than in any straight superhero title I've read in a dog's age. I'm pretty sure that I would've felt the same way when I was a kid, had I read the same story then. I know you've made the same point w/the current run on the Hulk, Cameron. I really don't know that I agree, thinking back to my own comics reading habits when I was a kid (fave title: Swamp Thing). There probably are a lot of kids who like the smash 'em up quick fix books. This book is not for them (and not specifically aimed at "kids" at all but rather the young teen demo, if I understand the aim w/r/t the Ultimate books correctly) but rather the kids whose eyes glaze over at the thought of endless fight scenes. Which is not to say that a little cathartic free-for-all action won't be appreciated when it rolls around every 8 to 10 issues...

Arthur Sudnam, II

05:02 / 07.05.02

Got Ultimates 1,2,and 3 and I thought they were great. Not slow at all, but I did read them together.

The Natural Way

07:51 / 07.05.02

Yeah, I don't remember the fighting being the most important thing about a book when I was a kid. Spidey and the Black cat's relationship, fr instance, felt much more important than scrapping w/ electro. Now, I don't want you to take this the wrong way, Cam, but sometimes I think yr opinions about what comics should and shouldn't be are a bit...rigid. I'll say it again: My kid bro and his mates love this book - I love it. It's actually very inclusive, which is a cool thing. However, I am gagging for a big fight next ish, but it's Millar and Hitch, so I don't really expect to be disappointed.

09:36 / 07.05.02

Cameron, you should know that Millar is taking the pacing of major plot events really slowly on purpose. His point was "Hey, I wrote THE AUTHORITY and stuff, but realistically, do world-threatening menaces really show up every month or so, even in the comic book world? What if we stretched the boundaries and dealt with the idea that what if the gov't spent billions on a super-team and no big villains showed up? What would the PR fallout be?" (I'm not quoting directly, I'm paraphrasing)

Millar is trying to do something different. Break some new ground in comics. His point is more character work, less fast-paced fight scenes and super-villains. I'm loving it, and I for one applaud him for trying to break the traditional super-hero comic mold.

I understand if the book is not your cup of tea, but at least know that Millar is **intentionally** taking the pacing differently with this one.

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