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Responsibilities of a Fiction Suit

 
  

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Jackie Susann
23:35 / 18.06.01
Not sure this is the right forum, but I'll give it a go anyway.

I'm writing this in response to the Head Shop thread about violence at the EU countersummit in Sweden. A bunch of people have arced up after I posted a message asking the ratlicking toadies who'd posted thus far to take it to the Young Republican BB. Some people thought the comment was out of line, other didn't. That's not the point.

The point is, this suit is called Jackie Hates You Stupid Bastards. It's not going to engage in polite discussion, it's going to go for the insult every time. That doesn't mean it can't take part in debates, but that it has a particular means for doing so. Aggressive to the point of absurdity.

So my question is, is that a problem? Should I be nicer? Or is it reasonable to think people can look at the name and realise they should take what I say with a grain of salt? Do I need to chuck some weird square bracket [fuck shit up] [/fuck shit up] things around my posts? Er. Whatever. Thoughts welcome, I have to get back to work.
 
 
ynh
23:47 / 18.06.01
Nope. No problem. The responsibilities of a fiction suit don't even include consitency as far as I'm concerned; although I do appreciate it. The "ratlicking toadies" comment has generated more discussion, in fact, that most of the Conversation threads.

I am, however, disappointed that you expect any such comments to be taken with a grain of salt. You simply posted what some of us were too ecumenical to post in the first place. Thanks.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
00:24 / 19.06.01
I think you're perfectly in character for your fiction suit. Keep it up.

I find it especially weird posting around a bunch of ficiton suits when I'm trying my best not to create one in the process.

Sort of inverse ego modification.

Anyway, keep it up Jackie... although I do miss your pants.
 
 
Quickbeam
00:24 / 19.06.01
Has the term fictionsuit been defined formally anywhere? Bring on the comments about my being uneducated here...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
00:30 / 19.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Quickbeam:
Has the term fictionsuit been defined formally anywhere? Bring on the comments about my being uneducated here...


[old crotchety voice]
heh... back in my day, before that damn whippersnapper Morrison wrote about fiction suits in that funny book (you know, the one with all the cussin' and swearin' and people who can't be seen) we used to call them 'Handles'. Back in the day when CB was more popular than cell phones and BBS was something you ran on a home computer instead of a damn server. Damn things don't serve me a bit.
We didn't have no internet and we liked it just fine!
[/old crotchety voice]
 
 
ynh
00:34 / 19.06.01
So, Lothar, you're whole gimmick is that you have none? How Singles of you.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
01:20 / 19.06.01
quote:Originally posted by [Your Name Here]:
So, Lothar, you're whole gimmick is that you have none? How Singles of you.




Heh. I'm just trying not to encourage the habit in myself as far as posting on the board is concerned.

You should see the fiction suit I wear at work when dealing with clients.
 
 
the Fool
03:21 / 19.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Jackie Hates You Stupid Bastards:

So my question is, is that a problem? Should I be nicer? Or is it reasonable to think people can look at the name and realise they should take what I say with a grain of salt? Do I need to chuck some weird square bracket [fuck shit up] [/fuck shit up] things around my posts? Er. Whatever. Thoughts welcome, I have to get back to work.


I'm fine with Jackie being an agressive bastard. But its not a fictionsuit if there is no other you to compare against. You are not really pretending to be angry, you are angry (at least it appears so). So if people take offence then you shouldn't be surprised. Seriously, if someone calls you a dickhead you take offence, whether or not the person behind the mask is real or not. It doesn't mean you shouldn't call people dickheads, just don't expect people to laugh it off because somehow its not you or is just a characture.

This is not a plea for Jackie to be nicer. Jackie shouldn't need to apologies. But Jackie can't expect others not to be rubbed the wrong way by his combat suit. Anyway rubbing people the wrong way can produce unexpected results... go Jackie!!!
 
 
Krister Kjellin
05:33 / 19.06.01
Well, Jackie, you certainly pissed me off. But then I'm easily pissed off and mostly harmless, so don't mind me...

I can see the point of an aggresive bastard pen name. You go ahead.

I may blow my top over it, but that's just healthy.
 
 
Ganesh
07:05 / 19.06.01
Hey, maybe people were just pretending to take offence - y'know, with their crazy 'Ganesh Takes Umbrage' style fiction suits?

<coughs>
 
 
Tom Coates
07:41 / 19.06.01
Actually I think that's a very interesting point - i fiction suit isn't designed to help you AVOID responsibility - if you write something under a name, then people will take it as the pronouncements of that name, and will respond accordingly. Just because it represents a different side to your personality doesn't mean that it won't hurt when it gets a kicking.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:08 / 19.06.01
I tend to think that, yes, a fictionsit name like Jackies is designed to offend, insult, and that therefore its primary mode is going to be aggressive. And, in turn, this will remove a certain amount (only a certain amount, don't fly down my throat here) of credibility from anything Jacks says.

Hypothetical example: New fictionsuit Jackie Posts Everything Backwards enters a discussion on historical representations of the dildo as pagan idol. Jackie posts an incisive, well-read and mildly amusing comment, three paragraphs long, that should turn the discussion on its head, and really provoke some thought. Except that every word is typed backwards, requiring complete translation of the text before comprehension of the content is possible.

Extreme example, but if I see a post from someone that I know is always trying to aggravate others, I tend to skim read what they have to say, if I even bother to read it at all. On the other hand, in 'fluff' forums like the Conversation, I'd probably look for that person's posts, because... they're more fun. Sooo... possibly 'concept suits' really only work in fluff threads? What do you lot think? Anyone have a similar reaction?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:16 / 19.06.01
The problem with concept suits is that if you know who's really behind them, then even if you know they're a stance, what they say affects how you think about that person (or other suit)... However much you attempt to think otherwise.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:47 / 19.06.01
Which is also true.

Zen - going for first to a thousand posts again? You're already on fifty at the time of writing... Saved by the bell last time, weren't we?
 
 
Quickbeam
22:59 / 20.06.01
Thanks for the update. I ran through all my issues of the Invisibles and couldn't find it, so I had to swallow my pride and ask.

I think Coates's point that a fictionsuit shouldn't avoid responsibility is a good one. I can tell that Jackie's intent is to cause trouble, but I fail to see any worthwhile motive for this. So I'm with Jack, and I ignore most everything from folks who seem hell bent on stirring up trouble.

If any of you read Ender's Game, and its sequel Speaker for the Dead, Ender's siblings engage in an extended fiction suit political theory debate in order to influence world events. They keep their secret airtight.

I'm sure similar shit goes on on this very board. You can never be sure, and I would recommend the books for anyone who wants an inside look at what kinds of things you can do in a media fictionsuit, If you don't want to be the puppetmaster yourself with your mates.

-The question isn't whether or not you're paranoid, the question is are you paranoid enough?-
 
 
ynh
04:12 / 21.06.01
I wouldn't reccommend ignoring Jackie, but that's your loss.

The antagonistic bent is a holdover from some harsh arguments before the olde barebelithe was deleted.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:40 / 21.06.01
Agreed - the point in this instance is that Jackie hasn't created a separate persona who hates you stupid bastards, but that s/he has taken on the attribute of hating you stupid bastards as part of hir 'real', or shall we say default, persona.

*smokes pipe*

The end result of this is that newer, or indeed stupider, posters, may get the impression that Jackie's purpose in general is just to start shit, having not encountered hir more erudite posts, or indeed perhaps having ignored them because they contained long words, grasped thorny issues, or just generally made poor ickle heads hurt.

One could argue that this might be a reason for Jackie not to want to do this, or alternatively that it is the whole point.

It would also be worth noting for the record that the name was adopted in response to certain comments posted on this board that had - howcanIputthisinawaysoasnottooffendorunnerve? - the smack of stupid bastardy about them.
 
 
Lee
08:56 / 21.06.01
I still think it was a bit strong. Jackie's position seems to have been taken purely out of frustration with people who can't (refuse to) see that hir way is the right way. As if we should all be ashamed that we've disappointed hir. In this regard it is petulant and best ignored. My immediate response upon reading hir first post was "that person needs a hot, sweet tea immediately," but then I'm just matronly.

I see Zenith's point about how you ignore Jackie at your peril, but if "ratlicking toadies" is going to be a consistent tone, then I can't imagine I'll be missing out on much. If it's not a consistent tone, I can only conclude that Jackie has taken a particular dislike to certain members of the board, and while this may be hir perogative, I don't think it is particularly appropriate to generate bad feeling within what is, essentially, a community. Discussion, debate, disagreement, yes. Hostility? Let's all try to play nice, shall we?

It's not easy to take back insults on-line because it is an arena where neither side has motive to back down or temper their opinion. This could be a blessing or a curse. You can't kiss and make up, you can't give someone flowers, you can only deepen whatever rifts are caused.

And I think it would be a shame if we forgot about respect and actually started to hate one another.

I'm sorry if I disappointed you. How many sugars would you like?
 
 
deletia
08:56 / 21.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Lee:
Discussion, debate, disagreement, yes. Hostility? Let's all try to play nice, shall we?


Why, exactly?

Serious question. Why should we "all try to play nice"? Oh and, incidentally, expressing this in a fashion inviting the response "You unqualified-to-be-so-patronising fuck" is probably not going to advance the cause.

What is the objective of "playing nice"? Why should people not express their hostility to they find to be inadequate or dangerous on subjects about which they feel passionate?

Or, to put it another way, is this a board in which special children can play together, without anybody being made to cry, or is it a discussion forum for ideas about which people care and are able to express themselves freely? And are problems caused when the special children wander into the discussions?

And what are the implications of a decision either way, or a third?

[ 21-06-2001: Message edited by: deletia pupating ]
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
08:56 / 21.06.01
I'd just like to clarify that I'm not advocating ignoring anyone's posts - it's simply that a deliberately adversarial attitude, when the context wouldn't seem to require it, will strip some of the credibility from what you're saying.

It'll also raise hackles - several of the more theory-bent and complex threads have rotted simply from a 'you dumb bastards' approach to argument, which will inevitably lead to handbags at dawn, and who can put who down faster and harder. Some of us are more proficient at this than others.

On a slightly separate note - if you perceive a post as coming from an underinformed basis, rather than a prejudiced or curmudgeonly basis, your response should take that into consideration - if you feel that with that particular subject you can advise someone, there shouldn't be a approach to your post, unless you want to come across as arrogant or patronising, and have the original poster gloss over the point you're trying to make when they take umbrage. Seems to me that's a waste of effort and everyone's time. IMBrazenlyPompousO.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
08:56 / 21.06.01
Posted at the same time as Deletia's response, but you can feel free to treat that as an answer to yours, if you like. Or not.
 
 
deletia
08:56 / 21.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
On a slightly separate note - if you perceive a post as coming from an underinformed basis, rather than a prejudiced or curmudgeonly basis, your response should take that into consideration.


Ah, but I would add to this excellent point that, although there is of course nothing wrong with not knowing stuff. I'm here to learn, amongst other reasons.

However, there is also "spoiling ignorance", which is actually stupidity. Take the apparently departed Leon de Narf, who was a) thick, b) arrogant, and therefore c) believed himself to be incredibly sharp, despite having the processing faculties of a Speak'n'Spell. As a result, he would neither listen to nor be equipped to comprehend other viewpoints, and his inaccurate and inane responses clogged threads like bindweed.

Not knowing things, plus having no desire to know things, plus believing that one already *does* know things is pretty much lethal in any situation, BBS included.
 
 
Ganesh
08:56 / 21.06.01
'He that knows not, and know not he knows not. He is a fool. Shun him.'

As the ol' saying goes.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:19 / 21.06.01
Just a brief addition - don't forget that as far as most of us are concerned here, there is no difference between 'real' and 'fictional' suits - ALL are fiction suits - ALL are a way of appearing on this board - other readers will attempt to find consistency in whatever persona you provide - and I think that's the right thing to do. I think it is missing the point to operate with one suit that represents YOU and a couple of 'novelty' suits. The point has always been that you have the opportunity to represent an aspect of yourself that is no less real than your everyday one - be it more aggressive, more right-wing etc. It's designed to let people say what they REALLY THINK about the debates of the day without always worrying about how that will reflect upon them.

This board has never been about 'playing nice' - I think that it's very important that people disagree. I do think that all inteliigent people can disagree without name calling - but only because I think that more logical possibilities for discussion are lost in the process. That's what suits are for in my opinion. I have a couple. I don't use them much...
 
 
Lee
12:12 / 21.06.01
quote:Originally posted by deletia pupating:

Serious question. Why should we "all try to play nice"? Oh and, incidentally, expressing this in a fashion inviting the response "You unqualified-to-be-so-patronising fuck" is probably not going to advance the cause.


"Playing nice" in this context means disagreeing without lapsing into insult. As other people have noted. It does not seem, to me, to be an entirely inappropriate tactic. Intolerance on the other hand, doesn't help to move any discussion forward.

Try to be tolerant. That's all I'm suggesting.
 
 
Quickbeam
00:31 / 22.06.01
I think the advantage in playing nice is that others may actually listen to what you have to say. If you are mean, they won't listen.

At this point, why post? I don't know anyone from here outside of here (to my knowledge) and if they don't listen to what I have to say, I may as well type into a text editor. I suppose it might feel good to be rude, but I see it as useless.

Disagreements and conflict are useful, and they are what I come here for. I listen to folks who disagree, even if the YELL and swear, as long as there is some kind of rationale that can be debated.

But Tom is right, your persona is what you have here. Jackie has willfully taken an antagonistic stance towards everyone, and I don't know what it is about, and am disinclined to find out. It is reactionary.

I don't come here to get in fights which can't be resolved, except by voluntary submission. In a real fight, an antagonist and a defender can go until one can't get up. It is more credible to be antagonistic in an arena where something is at risk.
 
 
nul
02:36 / 22.06.01
I've been wearing my patented space suit the whole time. I must have gotten confused when I was on a 12 hour layover in Minneapolis. They have funny water.

*goes to change into a fiction suit*
 
 
Jackie Susann
03:33 / 22.06.01
quote: I don't know what it is about, and am disinclined to find out. It is reactionary.

Pfft.

As deletia so aptly asked, "What is the objective of "playing nice"?" More to the point, what are the assumptions underlying western ideals of politeness, especially as they apply to urgent political debates with people holding intensely reactionary - not to mention idiotic - ideas? Isn't the idea of a reasoned dialogue just one more means for the domestication of our ideas to controlling mechanisms? The worst things in the world are done by people being nice, polite, reasonable - bureacracy, diplomacy, strategy. Even homicidal maniacs were invariably "really nice people".

The hippy-style let's-all-be-friends communication philosophy is just one approach to dialogue. It's just as exclusionary as any other, including open hostility. It claims that hostile voices are exclusionary, but this is only true in the sense that pacifistic dialogues exclude all voices they code as violent. It is, to quote whatever wanker said it above, reactionary.

Feel free to diagree, but realise I will respond by deriding you as part of a practical experiment with different rhetorical styles.
 
 
the Fool
05:25 / 22.06.01
Interesting. But if someone does get angry from your stance and adopts your stance, doesn't that eliminate the possibility of communication (or more to the point discussion) by reducing the topic to "I don't like you! ... Well I don't like you either!" ?

Interesting but does it go
anywhere?
 
 
deletia
06:30 / 22.06.01
Violence against the dominant ideology is in almost every case ultimately futile. This does not mean it cannot be useful, or necessary, or fitting, or beautiful.
 
 
Jackie Susann
06:44 / 22.06.01
quote: Interesting but does it go anywhere?

I dunno... that's why it's an experiment.

quote:... the dominant ideology...

Piss off, what dominant ideology? Like this? Talking about the dominant ideology is just a way of obscuring the basically antagonistic social relations that characterise capitalism. I am a Marxist, look at me, I wear my Marxist cap with the sparkly, pointy bits. You all must listen to me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:01 / 22.06.01
I think that what the people asking everyone to 'play nice' aren't really considering is the fact that sometimes, an opinion can be stated in very polite and reasonable terms which is nevertheless offensive, stupid, and warranting a response akin to "for fuck's sake"... As has been said before, the board should ideally be one in which people can post their righteously angry screeds as well as their well thought-out arguments.

At the end of the day, if you decide to respond like that, you're taking a bit of a risk and you may regret it. But it's only you who has to worry about consequences: ie, that people may stop listening to you, think you're a wanker - which one could convincingly argue are not very important things relative to the issues at stake in some of our discussions. Sometimes it's worth risking it, and not qualifying what you want to get off your chest.

One might also point out that anyone who gets too upset by a bit of verbal push and shove on an internet discussion forum needs to grow a slightly thicker skin...
 
 
QUINT
08:51 / 22.06.01
Precisely. They are pointy and furry mans.

However, if you makes a personality pastiche which has nasty fur, you must prepare to be backcombed by someones you are pointy at.

So Jackie, who hates us silly illegimates, must be prepared to be disprespected in turns.

No biggie.
 
 
Quickbeam
10:24 / 22.06.01
Reasoned dialogue is not an attempt to control you. It is not the province of hippies. My point was more that you are being antagonistic in what amounts to a consequence free environment. You know no one can stop you.

So what are you doing it for? This is a serious question. What is your experiment set up to find out. To my knowledge, Tom is the only one here with any power, but he's a swell guy, and he'll support your freedoms.

I support your freedoms too, but Tom supporting them is more meaningful.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:20 / 22.06.01
quote:Originally posted by Quickbeam:
So what are you doing it for?


How about: because certain ill thought-out remarks do not deserve a reasoned answer?
 
  

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