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The Hulk

  
  

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Captain Zoom
14:55 / 20.12.01
HAs anyone else read the latest issue (#34)? It's incredible. No pun intended. No green-skinned monster at all. Bruce Jones has written the best hulk story I've ever read (granted I haven't read that many). But seriously, holy shit this is good. Going on my list as of now.

Zoom.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:00 / 20.12.01
>>> No green-skinned monster at all. Bruce Jones has written the best hulk story I've ever read <<<

How can it be the best Hulk story if the Hulk isn't in it?!??

I dunno, man, I just don't get it. It says "Hulk" on the cover, shouldn't it have the Hulk inside?

And people wonder why kids don't read comics any more...
 
 
Captain Zoom
18:21 / 20.12.01
Just read it. It's great.

Zoom.
 
 
Professor Silly
19:55 / 26.12.01
The Hulk is there, you just don't get the pleasure of seeing this monsterous presence.

I really dug that Dr. Banner was using meditation techniques to control his monster within.

I agree--I'm going to keep reading this series to see where it'll go.

All Hail Discordia!
 
 
CameronStewart
00:57 / 27.12.01
>>>The Hulk is there, you just don't get the pleasure of seeing this monsterous presence. <<<

I say again, if I were a 12-year-old kid who bought a Hulk comic, I'd be pretty goddamned disappointed if I didn't get to see the Hulk - the title character, for fuck's sake - stomping around smashing things up. That is the book's raison d'etre.

Oh, but that's right, kids aren't reading comics any more. Stop for a second to consider why that is.

Because, as amply demonstrated by this and that mindbogglingly tragic Transformers bullshit from the other thread, all the kids' characters are being hijacked by middle-aged men who have this perverse need to continue reading childrens' stories with airs of "sophistication." I'm sure doing a Hulk comic without the Hulk in it is all so terribly clever and postmodern, but I fail to see how it would hold any interest at all for a kid - who, after all, should be the primary audience.
 
 
Jack Fear
01:08 / 27.12.01
STUPID COMIC!! CAMERON SMASH!!!
 
 
Sandfarmer
03:34 / 27.12.01
Now that's fucking funny.

[ 27-12-2001: Message edited by: Sandfarmer ]
 
 
CameronStewart
11:20 / 27.12.01
Don't get me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry...
 
 
Ganesh
11:29 / 27.12.01
Kali would...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
12:22 / 27.12.01
Heh.
 
 
Professor Silly
13:56 / 27.12.01
quote:I WON'T read it!!! You can't MAKE me!!! Waaaahh!!! waaaahhh!! waaahhh!!

Seriously--read it before you freak out.


...or are you afraid?
 
 
CameronStewart
15:09 / 27.12.01
And the award for Missing The Point Entirely goes to...

(opens envelope)

General Disorder!

(wild applause)
 
 
sleazenation
20:32 / 27.12.01
oddly enough i was reading some old Peter David Hulk comics the other day and was pleasently surprized on how well the stood up...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:18 / 28.12.01
Around 340 to 425 are a really good run, unfortunately after 426 it got a bit silly and I stopped collecting soon after. Apparently after that it got really wanky because of editorial interference and that was why he quit...
 
 
The Knowledge +1
12:19 / 28.12.01
The new hulk issue is available free as a dot comic at www.marvelcomics.com
 
 
DaveBCooper
12:37 / 28.12.01
I dunno Cameron, I was probably about the sort of age you’re talking about when I read Moore’s Swamp Thing and Helfer’s Shadow series in the 1980s, both of which had issues where the hero was, if not entirely absent, then certainly a much reduced presence. And I still enjoyed them. And the ‘World Without a Superman’ story of a few years ago didn’t have the titular character in it at various points (though, yes, there were various pretenders to the S-shield).

I understand what you’re driving at, I think – the old adage of every issue of a comic being someone’s first issue – and I’d agree that titles like the Hulk and Spider-Man and Batman et al are the kind of titles that are likely to appeal to younger readers, but I don’t think that necessarily means that creators have to pitch stuff at a level that will be solely understood/enjoyed by children. It’s a fine tightrope to walk to do work that’ll be appreciated by both adults and children, and even companies such as Disney can fail to hit these targets simultaneously (Black Cauldron). But with a character like the Hulk, Peter David’s work would seem to be a good example of why he needn’t be aimed solely at children.

Granted, I haven’t read the Hulk issue that’s sparking this (don’t care for Jones’ work), but I don’t know if we should necessarily dismiss the idea of a comic trying something like this – unless it’s for Trade Descriptions reasons, of course. And I have to say I don’t feel that the ‘Nuff Said issues are really going to be the best comics to use to lure in new readers of any age, to be honest – like the Tangent or Girlfrenzy ‘events’, I think they’re more designed to appeal to existing readers, as you say (but for one month a year, I guess that sort of thing is reasonable… if ‘twere ONLY that often. >Sigh< ).

DBC

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: DaveBCooper ]
 
 
Captain Zoom
12:52 / 28.12.01
At the risk of starting a fight, why on Earth should a kid be the primary audience? I think you're treating super-heroes as something that only kids should read. I read super-heroes, I read fairy tales. I watch saturday morning cartoons. I don't think there's anything wrong with a "kids" show or comic that can appeal to an adult. You'll notice that nowhere has it been said that a kid would not enjoy the comic in question (Incredible Hulk #34 for any interested latecomers). In fact one of the protagonists of the story is a 12 or 13 year old boy. Cameron, I don't see how you can make these sweeping comments without even a cursory read of the title in question. If you're not going to read it, why bother talking about it?

Zoom.
 
 
Professor Silly
13:46 / 28.12.01
quote:why on Earth should a kid be the primary audience?

exactly. let's face it, comics are a consumer-driven market. with the exception of free online comics, one must spend money to purchase a book. now, who has more money to spend--children or young adults with jobs and a taste for science fiction? since Watchmen came out in the 80's we've seen a steady movement to an older audience.

is this a bad thing?

pshaw--there "is" no such thing.

a more relevant question: do you enjoy comics more that come out now than the books that came out ten years ago. I think the overall quality has only gotten better (the exceptionally good stories are available as TPs). Can you ever really speak for some hypothetical sample of the population (_____-people won't like this...I'm not one myself, but I just know it!), or should we limit our opinions to our own personal experiences...?

I agree with Zoom--seeing some of the mental workings of a soul like Banner, as he tries to deal with his destructive alter-ego seems more interesting to me. I can relate to Banner, with his intellect and scientific curiousity; I do not relate as well to a 400 pound green child with bad temper tantrums.

...but hey! that's just me
 
 
CameronStewart
13:52 / 28.12.01
Well, thanks to K+1's link above, I've just read the issue in question.

(shrugs)

It's alright, I guess - certainly not the Greatest Hulk Story Ever - and I stand by my assertion that it's pretty unexciting, given that it's supposed to be a comic about a giant rampaging green monster that destroys everything in its path.

I just don't get it. Superhero comics are supposed to be action/adventure stories, but the steadily increasing trend seems to be to eliminate all the action and adventure. Sophisticated human drama is of course a good thing, and I'd love to see more compelling stories of this nature told in comics, but I don't think it should be within the framework of action/adventure characters, at the expense of the action.

Look, imagine there's a new Indiana Jones film coming out. "Indiana Jones And The Spear Of Destiny" or something. You see the posters and trailers featuring a bare-chested Harrison Ford with that dusty Panama hat on, brandishing his whip. You queue up outside the cinema, awaiting the next thrilling chapter of the saga, and when you're sat inside and the lights dim, you're shown two hours of Indiana Jones, intrepid archeologist, down at the University library reading through old books, taking notes, compiling papers, arguing with the University heads to gain funding for his trip to find the artifact, all leading up to the thrilling conclusion when he's at the excavation site and unearths a couple of broken clay pots. Credits roll.

Yes, it might be a more "realistic" portrayal of the life of an archaeologist, but who cares? You expect to see fist-fights with Nazis, supernatural phenomena and whip-cracking action, because that's what the character is all about.

I'm not saying it should be 22 pages of mindless fighting - Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko proved unquestionably that it's possible to make intelligent adventure tales that combined thrilling action sequences with compelling stories, that were unquestionably intended for kids but were good enough to appeal to adults as well. Superheroes by definition are people who can do things the average human can't, and so the action is essential - there's little point otherwise.

I want more kitchen-sink drama in comics. I just don't think it should be done with superheroes.
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:13 / 28.12.01
I wonder… in the past, a superhero comic was one of the few places where you could see (for example) a man flying, and it would look realistic within its own context (drawing of man flying over drawing of city). Now, however, films, TVs, and even computer games can easily and quite convincingly offer this sight because of the advances in effects. And at the same time, sales of superhero comics have declined.

Maybe there’s a movement – albeit an unconscious one – towards trying other elements in comics to make up for the loss of what was exclusive ? Just a thought.

I’m not saying this is necessarily so, of course. But I think we no more need to worry about an issue of the Hulk which doesn’t feature the title character being a bad thing for the medium than, say, an issue of Swamp Thing where he spends most of the issue in a lock-up freezer.

I gather Banner appears in Hulk #34, so to some extent there might be a ‘narrative pull’ for a younger reader of thinking Banner is about to become the Hulk – maybe on the next page, or the one after that, or… until the issue’s over. And if the reader’s been satisfied enough with the story, though not in the way they expected, that could well be enough to bring them back next time.

DBC
 
 
CameronStewart
14:16 / 28.12.01
>>>At the risk of starting a fight, why on Earth should a kid be the primary audience [for superhero comics]?<<<

Honestly, file this one under "If you have to ask, you'll never know."

Note that I don't say children's entertainment is any less valid or enjoyable than that created for adults.

I like certain superhero comics, I also like cartoons, and some kids' books. I'm not turning up my nose at kids' stuff.

>>>I don't think there's anything wrong with a "kids" show or comic that can appeal to an adult.<<<

There isn't. The problem is that they don't appeal to kids any more, because they're seemingly being made solely for adults.

Why is this a problem? It's the old "hook 'em while they're young" thing that the cigarette companies understand so well - target the kids and you have a customer for life. I for one have no real desire to see comics die out once the current readership does the same.

>>>a more relevant question: do you enjoy comics more that come out now than the books that came out ten years ago.<<<

10 years ago was the Image boom, when comics were pretty much at their nadir. There's more quality comics being produced now, of course, but I find they're not in the superhero genre.

A more appropriate question would be "do I enjoy comics from 40 years ago?" to which the answer would be "yes." Silver Age Marvel comics by Kirby, Ditko, et al are the benchmark for superhero comics, and very little done these days comes close.

>>>>I agree with Zoom--seeing some of the mental workings of a soul like Banner, as he tries to deal with his destructive alter-ego seems more interesting to me. I can relate to Banner, with his intellect and scientific curiousity; I do not relate as well to a 400 pound green child with bad temper tantrums.<<<

Well then, my point is - YOU SHOULDN'T BE READING THE HULK. A 400-pound temper-tantrum-throwing monster is what it's about.

"I like to watch Ally McBeal, but I wish it was about something other than a quirky female lawyer - that just doesn't interest me..."

"I'm more interested in reading about a mild-mannered newspaper reporter in a big metropolitain city - I can't relate to a man in tights and a cape flying around..."

Ultimately my point is that - yawn - comics need to diversify, there need to be more comics that cater to an adult's sensibilities that don't rely on subverting or recontextualizing children's characters.

Note to Zoom: I'm not keen on starting a fight either - I'd like this to keep calm and rational, and apologies if I offend...

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
CameronStewart
14:24 / 28.12.01
I will say, though, that I liked the artwork in Hulk 34.
 
 
CameronStewart
14:46 / 28.12.01
>>>But I think we no more need to worry about an issue of the Hulk which doesn’t feature the title character being a bad thing for the medium than, say, an issue of Swamp Thing where he spends most of the issue in a lock-up freezer.<<<

I of course don't think the one comic will bring the industry to its knees, but it's not just this one comic - I do think it's representative of a larger pronblem currently affecting the industry...

>>>I gather Banner appears in Hulk #34, so to some extent there might be a ‘narrative pull’ for a younger reader of thinking Banner is about to become the Hulk – maybe on the next page, or the one after that, or… until the issue’s over. And if the reader’s been satisfied enough with the story, though not in the way they expected, that could well be enough to bring them back next time.<<<

Or they could say, "cuh, that was crap, why did I waste my momney on this? I'm gonna go watch my Matrix DVD again."

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
CameronStewart
15:04 / 28.12.01
Oooohhh...one more before I go.

>>>At the risk of starting a fight, why on Earth should a kid be the primary audience? I think you're treating super-heroes as something that only kids should read.<<<

Well, why on Earth shouldn't they be? Why does evertything from Captain America to Transformers have to be given an "adult" spin? What's wrong with understanding and accepting that Spider-Man is no more for grown-ups than Noddy or The Smurfs?

Again note that I make no comment on the relative worth or merit of childrens' vs adult entertainment.

"To write fairy stories for children, to amuse them, to divert restless children, to keep them out of mischief on rainy days, seems of greater importance than to write grown-up novels..." -L. Frank Baum
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:11 / 28.12.01
For what it's worth (very little in this storm-in-a-teacup, probably), I'd be looking forwards to the new Transformers comics more if they weren't 'mature audience' bound.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:21 / 28.12.01
I'm with Cameron on this... I'm not clear on why some writers who would write something like The Hulk, but throw out the Hulk in favor of his intellectual scientist alter ego don't just go off and write a comic ABOUT an intellectual scientist without all of the monster/scifi/superhero trappings that seem to be getting in the way of their real interests as a writer. Quite frankly, the field would be better served by a comic about the existential torment of a scientist on its own rather than yet another reinvention of a children's fiction character for an adult audience who are better off learning to divorce their intellectual interests from the crutch of having them forced into a superhero context.


I think one of the cool things about Grant's X-Men is that it still an action adventure comic, even though he's pushed it in a scifi rather than superhero direction. Grant does mature comics that kids can still enjoy, that's far more subversive than making superhero comics aimed almost entirely at an adult audience.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:24 / 28.12.01
Flux, I love you, and I want to bear your children.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:49 / 28.12.01
I wish there was some way to find out an accurate demographic breakdown of who purchases all of these comics. I'd love to know just how many people under the age of 16 have been reading The Incredible Hulk since Peter David started writing the comic exclusively for the aging 'fatbeard' element back in the mid80s or so...

The Hulk is a perfect example, because prior to David's run, NO ONE except little kids read the comic...

I'd love to know if the Ultimate line reached even the smallest percentage of the mainstreams kids that line was envisioned to capture. It seems to me, the only folks who read it are folks who already read mainstream comics, and either already bought Spider-Man and X-Men comics indiscriminately, or hated the continuity versions of those characters but wanted to read about them nonetheless. Oh, and Bendis and Millar fans.

If even a hundred normal little kids entered the market via the Ultimate line, I would be genuinely shocked.

Still, I'd love to know which comics actually do have a significant number of under-16 regular readers. I am guessing that the superhero comics that are conciously aimed at kids (like David's Young Justice and Supergirl, that Shazam! comic, things like that) don't even interest anyone besides weird 40 year olds...

I know my little brother who is 13 really likes Grant's New X-Men, but he reads my copies, so he doesn't count. He generally dislikes all of the other comics he sees. He likes Grant's ideas and dialogue, and Frank Quitely's "graphics". (he's a video game nut).

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Disposable Dixiecup Drinker ]
 
 
Ellis says:
17:17 / 28.12.01
An issue of the Hulk without the Hulk is like an episode of Smackdown without Wrestling !
 
 
Professor Silly
09:00 / 29.12.01
quote:I just don't get it. Superhero comics are supposed to be action/adventure stories, but the steadily increasing trend seems to be to eliminate all the action and adventure. Sophisticated human drama is of course a good thing, and I'd love to see more compelling stories of this nature told in comics, but I don't think it should be within the framework of action/adventure characters, at the expense of the action.

This argument holds if one ignores an overall narrative over the course of several issues--I'm pretty sure the idea (like it or not) is to build it up. When JRJr finally shows the hulk, the presence should be awe-inspiring...although I do hope it happens within an issue or two.

quote:I want more kitchen-sink drama in comics. I just don't think it should be done with superheroes.

fair enough.

quote:A more appropriate question would be "do I enjoy comics from 40 years ago?" to which the answer would be "yes." Silver Age Marvel comics by Kirby, Ditko, et al are the benchmark for superhero comics, and very little done these days comes close.

Ah! Here we go. I disagree whole-heartedly with you on this one. I've tried the old Kirby/Lee stuff, and I can't stand it at all. I realize they're legends and all...I'm not saying they were no good! I just don't enjoy reading those old stories.
The only exception I've found of really enjoyable pre-80's material would be the first year of Batman back in the late 30's (but then I like Orson Wells, who purportedly had a strong influence on Bob Kane).

quote:Well then, my point is - YOU SHOULDN'T BE READING THE HULK. A 400-pound temper-tantrum-throwing monster is what it's about.

Not exactly--it's about a scientist who turns into a monster...one that destroys lives. The scientist must always face that awesome responsibility.

time will tell who's right...time will tell.

All Hail Discordia!!!
  
 
CameronStewart
09:38 / 29.12.01
>>>Ah! Here we go. I disagree whole-heartedly with you on this one. I've tried the old Kirby/Lee stuff, and I can't stand it at all. I realize they're legends and all...I'm not saying they were no good! I just don't enjoy reading those old stories.
The only exception I've found of really enjoyable pre-80's material would be the first year of Batman back in the late 30's (but then I like Orson Wells, who purportedly had a strong influence on Bob Kane).<<<

Well, to each his own, but I think this is a shame. Kirby's Fantastic Four comics are just brilliant - even the superhero-hating ultra-snobs at the Comics Journal listed them in their 100 Greatest Comics Of All Time - and no recent Spider-Man comics come close to what Ditko and Romita Sr. did in the 60s and 70s. Beautifully drawn, wonderfully imaginative stories (if admittedly a bit hokey, but hey, they're for kids).

It's a different aesthetic than modern superhero comics, and if it doesn't appeal to you I doubt I can change your mind (other than saying that I used to think they were crappy too until I paid a visit to the Warner Bros. animation studios and saw the walls literally wallpapered from floor to ceiling with colour photocopies of Kirby comics, inspiring me to go back and read a bunch of them again - which made me realize how truly brilliant they really are). I have a 9-year-old cousin to whom I send Ditko Spider-Man reprints, and he adores them.

Again, I guess it's a matter of taste, but I think the older stuff are much stronger examples of what I think superhero stories should be...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
09:38 / 29.12.01
quote:Originally posted by General Disorder:


Not exactly--it's about a scientist who turns into a monster...one that destroys lives. The scientist must always face that awesome responsibility.


Dude, that's also Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde.

Just face it: the Hulk is supposed to be a comic about a big green monster prone to temper-tantrums. Whenever the focus is turned away from the Hulk and over to Bruce Banner, it ALWAYS means two things:

a) the writer is bored out of his skull and wants desperately to make the comic more interesting because while it's fun for the artist to draw the Hulk fuck shit up, it's a real bore to write.

b) the company refuses to admit that their attempts to market a children's character to children appropriately have failed, so they are trying to find ways to keep the aging part of their audience reading, becuase otherwise NO ONE else would be reading it.

Cameron is right, after a certain point, both Marvel and DC dropped the ball big-time with the children's market, and haven't relearned how to write comics for children since. This doesn't mean all the superhero comics 'grew up', it really means that they all got lost in a very unappealing awkward adolescent stage, very neither here nor there.

I started reading comics as a little kid around 1987/1988 or so, and having witnessed the market change first hand since then, that probably is the cut-off... that's around the end of the time when the comics newstand market had any strength.

That newstand market was vital, once it shriveled up, that's when the entire industry went haywire.
 
 
CameronStewart
09:38 / 29.12.01
Incidentally, the best Hulk story is David Mazzuchelli's "Big Man."
 
 
bio k9
09:38 / 29.12.01
Oh, how I miss my Rubber Blanket...

I just got home from work and was shocked to see a thread about the Hulk had grown to 30+ posts. Then I find out this thread isn't about the Hulk at all. How disappointing. I'm going back to the music forum where I know the Radiohead thread will be about Radiohead.
 
 
sleazenation
09:38 / 29.12.01
a very interesting thread that is pretty irresolvable as far as i can see since it revolves arounds everyones perception of what comics 'are' and 'should be' about on a general and individual level.
 
  

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