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Underground > Comic Books >

Vertigo is floundering

  
  

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Matthew Fluxington
18:14 / 30.12.01
note: i was mistaken earlier on, only two issues of Grip have been released to date. I purchased the second one the other day...beautiful art, but the story is really nothing to write home about it. Pretty much feels like a crap indie movie.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:00 / 02.01.02
Vertigo certainly is floundering.....and so is about half of DC lately.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:04 / 02.01.02
Only good Vertigo right now is 100 BULLETS.....and soon, Paul Pope's 100% (hopefully).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:27 / 02.01.02
I'm curious what half of DC is thriving...as far as I can tell, the entire line has become conservative retro stuff aimed at people who bought comics regularly throughout the 70s and 80s... the only thing that at least *looks* interesting is Detective Comics (because of the coloring) and that Superman comic that McGuiness draws, because it answers the question: What if Joe Madureira drew Superman?
 
 
Rev. Jesse
16:43 / 02.01.02
I dig some of the stuff from DC's other imprints, America's Best (esp Promethea) and Wildstorm (Planetary). They have the talent, they just aren't marketing in the same manner anymore.

I believe that DC publishes some of the best
comics around. Now, I'm not saying they nessarily publish the best NEW comics, but that they countiue to publish TPB's and collections of their really really good stuff. We can't expect DC to come out with a Sandman or an Invisibles all the time but, we can expect DC to keep those comics in print.

You might be looking at this the wrong way, sure Vertigo has slumped recently, but why are we comparing the current output with their best stuff? If you don't like the crap they are putting out, don't buy it and write them and tell them why.

-Jesse
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:35 / 02.01.02
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rev. Jesse:
I dig some of the stuff from DC's other imprints, America's Best (esp Promethea) and Wildstorm (Planetary). They have the talent, they just aren't marketing in the same manner anymore.

I don't think it is fair to claim Wildstorm, Homage, and America's Best Comics to be DC products in any way other than technicality...DC acquired those lines, and all of the achievements you may cite as being of high quality had absolutely nothing to do with DC Comics, and those lines still run with a great deal of autonomy. I challenge anyone here to defend DC's main comics line. and for the love of god, please don't try to pull a 'well, Chuck Dixon writes solid stuff'. CHUCK DIXON IS A HACK. It's true. Just live with that cold hard fact.


I believe that DC publishes some of the best
comics around.

Like what? Nightwing?

Now, I'm not saying they nessarily publish the best NEW comics, but that they countiue to publish TPB's and collections of their really really good stuff.

Yeah, so? That's a really weak argument. "well, they keep the good stuff in print". But what have they published over the past two years that is worthwhile since Grant Morrison left JLA, and the Invisibles and Preacher ended?

We can't expect DC to come out with a Sandman or an Invisibles all the time but, we can expect DC to keep those comics in print.

That's really great, but it's just logical publishing. It's like that Chris Rock joke when he talks about people proudly taking credit for things they SHOULD be doing.

You might be looking at this the wrong way, sure Vertigo has slumped recently, but why are we comparing the current output with their best stuff?

Because they really should be making some effort to publish worthwhile comics.

If you don't like the crap they are putting out, don't buy it and write them and tell them why.

I haven't bought a single issue of a DC/Vertigo comic since Preacher ended. I look /read through DC stuff in stores though, so I'm aware of their current output.

I think it's really unfortunate that DC has chosen to sit back and elect to not compete with Joe Quesada's new Marvel, it's bad for the market...

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Currently Fabulous ]
 
 
The Natural Way
06:50 / 03.01.02
Out of interest, have you heard anything about this rumour that's floating around? Supposedly, DC are in danger of having their flagship characters, Batman and Superman, taken away from them by a hugely pissed Time Warner, who claim they aren't maximising the character's *potential*. Obviously things have got a little better since Sept 11 and DK2, but, according to Comics International, this explains why DC shelved Millar's final run on the Authority for so long - they quite simply didn't want Bats and Supes "undermined" in the *gay way*.....

Can you imagine, if this is true, how much DC are shitting it?
 
 
bio k9
07:17 / 03.01.02
The rumor I heard (somewhere on the net so take it for what its worth) was that Ted Turner said the DC characters should be given to the Cartoon Network because DC isn't using them.

Anyway, what was the competition when Vertigo was in its heyday, Dark Horse? Stuff that would have been solely Vertigo material five years ago ends up at other publishers now (Guy Davis' Marquis being published by Oni is a prime example). Is it that the smaller publishers offer better financial deals? Or less creative interference? Personally I don't care who publishes good comics as long as I can find them.

R.I.P. Vertigo
 
 
levon
07:58 / 03.01.02
Is that Cameron's art in the latest issue of Hellblazer? That's some really terrific work, man.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:36 / 03.01.02
Well, I'm glad that Time Warner being so harsh with DC... they AREN'T doing anything with their properties, they aren't maximizing their potential, they have the greatest economic advantage in the industry and yet are still having their asses handed to them by a bankrupt company and a handful of entrepreneurs, all this while owning the copyrights to some of the most iconic and popular superhero characters of all time.

I think that they should fire almost the entirety of the DC editorial staff (or at least Paul Levitz, Jenette Kahn, Karen Berger, and whoever it is who run the Batman and Superman lines these days (it's not still Mike Carlin and Denny O'Neil, is it?). Those people are coasting and complacent and are THE reason DC is so stagnant... they need to find people who will compete in the market the way a guy like Joe Quesada does..
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:35 / 04.01.02
I gave up on Superman around the 'death of Clark Kent' storyline which was just awful (or, to be more accurate, I had to stop buying it at that time due to lack of money and didn't go back when I did). The fact that they chickened out and turned Superman back from electricity guy to the regular flavour just showed they lost what impetus they had around the 'Death of Superman'/'Knightfall'/'Zero Hour' era...
 
 
mondo a-go-go
08:35 / 04.01.02
the overseer of the batman line is bob schreck (formerly of dark horse, set up oni press). he totally fucking ROCKS. (ok admittedly i'm biased coz he got me drunk, insisting that it was imperative that we drink, since aol were footing the bill....)

oh, and one of the reasons dc actually manages to make any money out of superman and batman etc at all is because, after the aol takeover, they insisted that dc was listed under the "licensing" sector of aol-warner, and not "media". that's might be where the cartoon network stories stemmed from...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:46 / 04.01.02
According to an offhanded remark in All the Rage, Vertigo is now publishing The Filth...
 
 
mondo a-go-go
13:56 / 04.01.02
don't 'member reading that. maybe i'll ask rich about it next time i see him.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
16:48 / 04.01.02
Okay so what the hell would you do with DC/Vertigo if you were in charge?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:00 / 04.01.02
Well, with Vertigo, I'd drop most of the titles and start replacing them with comics that could compete against the stuff that Oni, Fantagraphics, and Drawn & Quarterly are publishing. I'd start lobbying AOL Time Warner to fund advert campaigns that may get the comics into the hands of their intended demographic markets, as opposed to trying to figure out ways of selling them to the superhero fanboy comic shop market.

With DC's mainstream line, I would drastically cut the line down...I'd leave the following:

Batman, Detective, Robin, Action, Superman, Green Lantern, Flash, JLA, Legion, Green Arrow, Wonder Woman. All of them would be completely revamped, and retooled to be accessable and not bogged down in continuity... Green Lantern, mind you would remain Kyle Rayner, but would wear the old GL costume, as to be more recognizable. Would try to push the entire line in a direction that would capitalize on the popularity of the Bruce Timm cartoons. Might even go so far as to give Timm an editor-in-chief type of job.
 
 
Graeme McMillan
17:37 / 04.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Currently Fabulous:
I think that they should fire almost the entirety of the DC editorial staff (or at least Paul Levitz, Jenette Kahn, Karen Berger, and whoever it is who run the Batman and Superman lines these days (it's not still Mike Carlin and Denny O'Neil, is it?). Those people are coasting and complacent and are THE reason DC is so stagnant... they need to find people who will compete in the market the way a guy like Joe Quesada does..

Why do I suddenly feel like you're some kind of Wizard-reading, Marvel-worshipping fanboy after hearing you say that? IMO, the Batbooks and Superbooks are the most readable they've been since I was a kid and Alan Grant was doing 2000AD style stories in Batman for the first time... I mean, they're actually readable and fun for the first time in ages...
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
19:28 / 04.01.02
Originally posted by Flux

"The problem with Vertigo is that they publish too much genre work with extremely limited appeal ..."

Could you tell me which genre this is? Because they just seem to do a lot of odd fantasy, occasionally touching crime or sci-fi, though Transmet was imported from Helix wasn't it? No Horror except for Hellblazer and that's well past it's sell by date and was when Delano left, in fact it probably was after the first 16 issues but I digress.

I don't disagree with your statement but even if they were doing decent genre work, thrillers, horror, drama, sci-fi even war or western (I miss Jonah) I wouldn't complain but they just seem to want to write storys about albino, trans-sexual, tap dancing albatrosses or whatever.

At some point they seemed to fall in love with their own cleverness.

Originally posted by Captain Zoom

"Vertigo really should be used the way it was originally, as a vehicle to look into the darker corners of the DCU."

I disagree, I think that would be the final nail in Vertigo's coffin. One of the first things that Morrison, Gamain and others did when Vertigo started up was to try and distance themselves from the DCU. This has always been the problems when Marvel has attempted a crack at the adult market, their refusal to ditch the marketing power of MU brands. Bringing Vertigo back into the DCU would just alienate it's fan base.

Originally posted by Flux

"I don't think MAX is doing anything Vertigo was doing when it started...all of the MAX comics are missing an essential weirdness that was the hallmark of all of those early 90s Vertigo comics..."

Again I disagree. Vertigo was built on the back of four titles. Hellraiser, Swamp Thing, Sandman and to alesser extent Doom Patrol. With the exception of Doom Patrol none of them where particularly "weird", in fact all of them where fairly representational of their genres (though arguably Sandman was breaking ground with contemporary/historical fantasy). What they all were was very well written and often quite original. (Just a note to say that I'm thinking about Moore's run on Swamp Thing, Delano's on Hellblazer and Morrison's on Doom Patrol, arguably they were all over by the time Vertigo started (Moore's certainly was) but I maintain that it was those writers who laid the groundwork for Vertigo). The weirdness for weirdness sake I think was when it started to come apart.

Posted by Biomagnetic K9

"The rumor I heard (somewhere on the net so take it for what its worth) was that Ted Turner said the DC characters should be given to the Cartoon Network because DC isn't using them."

The sad thing is half of me thinks that's so wrong and the other half thinks well maybe this'll shake them out fo their complancecy. But then I think me and Ted would disagree on what "using them" properly means.

Posted by Rev.Jesse

"Okay so what the hell would you do with DC/Vertigo if you were in charge?"

I'd employ me.

Spending too much time in the comic forum at the moment.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:57 / 04.01.02
[QB]

Could you tell me which genre this is?

well, they've done a lot of stuff with magical characters (all the Sandman spinoffs, Tim Hunter, a lot of stuff with western themes (Outlaw Nation, all the extra Preacher stuff), a little non-Hellblazer horror stuff (Vamps, House of Secrets, Swamp Thing), crime noir 100 Bullets... they are publishing that horrible sex farce/spy comic Knockout...that comic is truly terrible. However, it is one of the bestselling Vertigo comics. That should say it all, really..


Again I disagree. Vertigo was built on the back of four titles. Hellraiser, Swamp Thing, Sandman and to alesser extent Doom Patrol.

What about Shade, The Changing Man?
As far as I'm concerned, Doom Patrol, Shade, and Sandman WERE Vertigo, and Hellblazer/Swamp Thing were the old fogies who came along for the ride. I've always thought both of those comics were crap without Alan Moore, no matter who did them.

With the exception of Doom Patrol none of them where particularly "weird", in fact all of them where fairly representational of their genres (though arguably Sandman was breaking ground with contemporary/historical fantasy).

Again, I think Sandman was right along with Doom Patrol and Shade with the 'weird literary comic' shtick, while Swamp Thing and Hellblazer were tired old genre comics which had solid fanbases, so they were used as an anchor for the line.
I don't think those two comics ever at any point provided the aesthetic thrust of Vertigo in terms of editorial direction, at least in the beginning proto-Vertigo stages...

I am only speculating, though. Maybe Karen Berger really was thinking "Let's make a clone army of Swamp Things!"... it certainly would explain why Vertigo seems to only publish good material as an exception to the rule.

[/LIST]
 
 
A
01:40 / 06.01.02
I've heard a few stories about Time Warner actually sabotaging DC's attempts to "do anything" with their characters", apparently some folks at DC nearly lost their jobs for getting Batman comics covered in the newspapers a while back because it conflicted with one of those Batman movies, somehow.

I don't really see what taking Superman and Batman away from DC would actually achieve. Can't TimeWarnerAOL do whatever they like with the characters anyway? It doesn't matter to Joe Public if Superman in the comics isn't the same as Superman in the cartoon, or in "Smallville", or in that new Superman movie that is supposedly always coming out soon.

Anyway, whose fault is it that the Batman movie franchise was run into the ground and that that Superman movie just kepps on not getting made? Not DC's.

Marvel seem to be managing to get a movie made about every single character that's ever appeared in on of their comics ("Iron Fist, The Movie"???), without the benefit of being owned by a conglomerate that includes a film company. What are Warner doing with DC's characters, movie-wise? Not much.

Don't read all this as being particularly defensive of DC, or anything, I'm just saying that it's their job to make comics and sell them. It's Ted's job to see that something is "done" with the characters.
 
 
bio k9
07:47 / 06.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Guy Grand about Flux:


Why do I suddenly feel like you're some kind of Wizard-reading, Marvel-worshipping fanboy after hearing you say that?
Hahaha. Flux=Shamus. Hahaha.
 
  

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