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Vertigo is floundering

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Prisoner no. 1300

13:41 / 17.12.01

Outlaw Nation cancelled.
Swamp Thing finishes, it's shit.
Sandman cashins a total failure, which Sandman cashins obviously are always going to be.
100 Bullets can't last much longer, everyone's goin to die.

They've got to sort this out. Does anyone know what they're going to do once Transmet finishes?

Matthew Fluxington

13:52 / 17.12.01

The problem with Vertigo is that they publish too much genre work with extremely limited appeal ... they should try publishing more general interest material, and try to compete with Fantagraphics and Drawn & Quarterly for the adult market.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:53 / 17.12.01

For the record, 100 Bullets will apparently run for 100 issues.

Oh, and didn't we have this thread a very short time ago?

14:04 / 17.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
For the record, 100 Bullets will apparently run for 100 issues.

I want that, in writing, signed by Jeanette Kahn and witnessed by Ted fucking Turner. NOW.

Matthew Fluxington

14:07 / 17.12.01

Question: did 100 Bullets get much, much better after its first issues that are in the opening trade paperback? I thought those were pretty fucking dull, but had pretty artwork.

I've never read anything by either Brian Azzarello or Brian Bendis that wasn't hackwork of the worst variety...

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:10 / 17.12.01

100 Bullets has improved as it's gone along, although I don't mind that first storyline that much (but quite a lot of people who didn't like the first trade like the title now, is what I'm trying to say, Flux). Eduardo Risso's art is one of the best in any comic right now (for detail, storytelling and character expression, only Quitely, Robertson and maybe Dillon can touch him, sez I). And Azzarello's other work can't be compared to this: I love 100 Bullets but really can't get into anything else he's done.

[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

14:12 / 17.12.01

I have a great fondness for 100 bullets, although the last storyline was as boring as Stoke-on-Trent. Bendis, however, is an overrated cashmonkey. Although his book about trying to break into the film industry was funny. I wish I could remember who I lent it to...

Matthew Fluxington

14:14 / 17.12.01

I'm sure the fact that I've never once liked crime noir fiction ever in my life is probably another leading factor in me having no love for 100 Bullets.

Foxxy Feminist Fury

14:56 / 17.12.01

Personally, the first story in 100 Bullets I liked, but I was biased to its commencement in Chicago (and on the Brown Line El, no less!). Mayhaps one of the last Vertigo things I've read, but I haven't seen it in a long long time, and it's been about as long since I've taken a look at what Vertigo is up to.

I need an onsite comic geek to get me way back in to comics.

20:15 / 17.12.01

Yea...Vertigo has pretty much run aground now with what it was trying to do...(and it did do a lot remember)

It does seem to be going in the right direction with G Hernendez' Grip...but i'm not sure how long it will last....If it's smart it will start taking up more independent (clowes,seth,tomine,ware) artists and start pushing them into the (people who don't usually read comics) market place...Althougth i'm sure a few of those artists would rather see their pets sexually abused by Stan Lee...

As for Bendis...

I really enjoy crime fiction and i think Bendis has done a fine job with some of his stuff (Powers,Sam & Twitch)...

But i think he has managed to build up a reputation in the same way as Tarantino did with film...namely...

D...I...A...L...O...U...G...E

This seems to be Bendis' calling card and it doesn't really hold up for a great comic if there is nothing behind it...

And it seems like Bendis trick with dialougue is having a character say "what?" now and then ...

Haven't got round to 100 bullets yet so i can't comment...

Read a copy of
Hellblazer recently (the one when John picks up a prostitute) for the first time in about 2 years....Good to se Constantine being pretty nasty but it didn't really make me feel like buying more..

I think Hellblazer should be written by Stuart Home in his Come Before Christ and Murder LOVE head...

14:26 / 18.12.01

I kinda swing the other way with Vertigo. I think when they were publishing more adult versions of their super-heroes they were on the right track. DC does do some indie stuff with Pirhana (or is it Paradox now) Press. They really ought to push that imprint more to bring indie creators into the spotlight.

When Vertigo started up, they had Sandman, Millar's Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol (not a word! I quite liked it), Death, Hellblazer. Not quite independant, but a little off their regular beaten path. Marvel seems to be doing this now, moving Captain America over to Marvel Knights, Fury in MAX (regardless of how good/bad it is), FF1234, The Sentry, etc. Vertigo really should be used the way it was originally, as a vehicle to look into the darker corners of the DCU. Use Paradox to put indie stuff in a mainstream marketplace. Paradox, and Pirhana, which I recall now was it's predecessor (and Vertigo's), puts out some good stuff. Hell GM did something in Fast Forward from Pirhana, and Beautiful Stories for Ugly Children #5 (i think) is still one of my favourite stories ever.

Then again, I could be wrong.

Zoom.

Matthew Fluxington

16:00 / 18.12.01

quote:Originally posted by The Annotated Underachiever:

If it's smart it will start taking up more independent (clowes,seth,tomine,ware) artists and start pushing them into the (people who don't usually read comics) market place...

I think that Fantagraphics already does that far better than DC could ever hope to. The only thing DC could concievably do is push those comics into the hands of mainstream comics readers...t

Daniel Clowes and Chris Ware hardly need DC to bring them to the masses, they've done that quite well on their own.

Note: anyone else in NYC see the Clowes-drawn (or rather "Clowes of Hollywood") posters all over the place for the re-opening of the Sunshine theatre? Lord, I would LOVE to get one of those posters...alas, they are pasted to the walls...

16:11 / 18.12.01

>>>I think when they were publishing more adult versions of their super-heroes they were on the right track.<<<

Eeuurgh. No question a few of them were great - Shade, Doom Patrol - but honestly, if they were still doing "adult" versions of old obscure superheroes I'd have lost interest years ago. I think they were trying to ease the fanboy community gently into "mature" comics, and now that they're past that stage they shouldn't look back.

Marvel's MAX line, to me, is just a joke. They're doing what Vertigo did 10 years ago, when it's no longer relevant.

These days I think Vertigo is sound in theory but not in practice.

Matthew Fluxington

16:17 / 18.12.01

I don't think MAX is doing anything Vertigo was doing when it started...all of the MAX comics are missing an essential weirdness that was the hallmark of all of those early 90s Vertigo comics...that's exactly what Vertigo's problem is, by the way: it's not doing anything weird, everything it publishes is so dry and normal. It's brand identity is gone, and it seems like no one is willing to recapture it... Preacher was good for the line, but all of the books they've published since have been either weak diluted descendents of either that comic or Sandman...

I've looked at all of the MAX comics, and they seem so amateurish... all of them are poorly drawn, have cookie cutter plots, and dull writing. They are essentially crappy R rated b-movies in comic form.

The Knowledge +1

18:37 / 18.12.01

Well I don't reckon you can criticise Alias, it's not hack-writing, in fact, it's really rather brilliant, in a modest sort of way.

And how about Fury? It's funny, and nice to look at.

I dug War Machine, it was like reading the old bog standard crappy runs of the pre-Queseda Marvel days, but it had a dynamism and self-depreciating humour that made it completely charming - The used the violence and swearing to really good effect.

And I currently read 100 Bullets (Really smart, cool writing and jaw-droppingly stunning art) Lucifer (Grant Morrison on Red Bull and Vodka (What the fuck?)) Transmetropolitan (Damn fine book) Hellblazer (Azzarello is leaving? You MOTHERFUCKER!!!) and, umh, Outlaw Nation - Check this -

Matthew Fluxington

19:15 / 18.12.01

I have read Alias 1-4, (I only purchased #1, though), and I am pretty convinced that it is very run-of-the-mill, it's like a mediocre tv show.

I always find it ridiculous that something that would be quite average or mediocre in another entertainment medium is suddenly topnotch comics because the competition is so low... Yeah, I guess Alias is in the top 40% of all of the comics published, but that's just because so much of it all is rubbish...

20:02 / 18.12.01

Alias is pretty dull. I barely made it through the first issue.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:07 / 18.12.01

IMHbutstilldemonstrablybetterthanKnowledge+1'sO, the only decent title in the woefully-named MAX range is Fury - now, this could be because it's the one with the best creative team, but I think it's also because it's the only one that has nothing to do with superheroes at all. What I've seen of War Machine is just Iron Man with swearing and badly-drawn tits, and two issues of the crushingly-dull Alias was enough for me: awful art, a really tired idea (morally compromised superpeople! and how ordinary people interact with them! woo!), and Bendis phoning it in -

What?

Phoning it in.

Who?

Bendis.

The guy who -

Yeah, you know, the guy who does the dialogue -

The dialogue that sounds a bit like -

Yeah, that's right -

The West Wing, or maybe a Tarantino movie -

Yeah, so anyway, this Bendis guy -

This Bendis guy -

What was I talking about?

Argh! It's just so played out! But my point is, Fury has no superhero elements: it's a spy/action/war/political satire comic, and although I agree with the point Flux made in another thread, about how that's just another form of the grr!-tough-guys-kick-ass escapism genre, it's quite entertaining.

Plus, it has Janeane Garofalo in it.

Uh, what was the point? Oh yeah, if the MAX imprint is to go anywhere, Marvel has to start using it for more than just 'edgy' new versions of their old characters. I know that's how Vertigo started, but times have changed.

09:28 / 19.12.01

Alias is the same comic as Powers only with less interesting characters and inferior art.

I enjoy Powers though.

The Damned Yankee

09:28 / 19.12.01

My list:
Powers
The Authority
Hellblazer
Transmet

And still looking to complete my TPB collection for the Invisibles, 100 Bullets (short list now, I know), and Starman (the only DCU title I bought on a monthly basis for a long long time now).

As for Transmet, I'm sad it's ending (and I'm really creeped out by Spider's i-pollen infection and the slow death of his faculties; I think I'd eat a bullet if that happened to me), but it seems that these Vertigo series start out with the intention of being finite, Hellblazer being the notable exception (Azzarello's leaving? Shit! Merde! Scheiss! They'd better pick a damn fine replacement for him!). It just seems to be the nature of the beast at Vertigo.

10:57 / 19.12.01

Vertigo HAVE got the very excellent Grip, and the new Paul Pope series coming soon.. I mean, how can they possibly go wrong with those two?

A:by publishing half a dozen books every month which sell few copies and, well, quite frankly, suck ass.

oh yeah, forgot about that.

Anyone else think it would be a good move if Vertigo just STOPPED putting out regular, on-going series, sacked all the hack writers and just existed to publish creator owned mini-series wherever they needed to?

10:59 / 19.12.01

ah. powers is of course published by image. and the authority is published by wildstorm. so your point is?

vertigo sucks because, by all accounts i have heard, karen berger is a flake who's lost touch with reality. but don't quote me on that.

The Damned Yankee

00:07 / 21.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Kooky is a bad scamp:
ah. powers is of course published by image. and the authority is published by wildstorm. so your point is?

vertigo sucks because, by all accounts i have heard, karen berger is a flake who's lost touch with reality. but don't quote me on that.

My point, Your Scampishness, is a little later in the post. I just put my list of what I'm reading (and what I want to be reading, damn budget...) to give y'all a better idea of where I'm coming from, as a fan.

And yes, I'm perfectly aware of who publishes Powers and The Authority . . . and that's the truth

(raspberry noise).

00:55 / 21.12.01

Come on Kooky, dish up the Karen Berger gossip...

07:26 / 21.12.01

quote:by all accounts i have heard, karen berger is a flake who's lost touch with reality. but don't quote me on that.I should point out that her Scampishness intended to say 'Karen Berger's decisions at Vertigo currently call to mind those of a flake...etc.'

Matthew Fluxington

17:29 / 21.12.01

I would be interested to know what, other than simply making incredibly poor editorial decisions, is making her co-workers and peers think of Karen Berger as being out of her mind...

Can we get hints, at least? Does she talk in a secret language to God or something, a la Anne Heche?

03:29 / 24.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = American Aquarium Drinker:
Note: anyone else in NYC see the Clowes-drawn (or rather "Clowes of Hollywood") posters all over the place for the re-opening of the Sunshine theatre? Lord, I would LOVE to get one of those posters...alas, they are pasted to the walls...

there's a full page add in this weeks voice, in the movie section.

the problem with Grip as it relates to Vertigo, however, is that no one fucking bought it. vertigo can't bring indy artists to the fanboy audience, because now matter who publishes, they don't give a fuck. they'll want tights and explosions, whether or not it's "weird."

Matthew Fluxington

13:21 / 24.12.01

It's on the back cover of the Onion too.

but it's not big and glossy and beautiful!

maybe I'll get a color photocopy or something...

08:59 / 27.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Mystery Gypt:

the problem with Grip as it relates to Vertigo, however, is that no one fucking bought it.

wankers!

Matthew Fluxington

12:16 / 27.12.01

the only reason I haven't bought Grip is because I didn't even know it existed til after the third or fourth issue came out, and I haven't even seen the first few, and I don't want to jump into a story that's already in progress...

DC is so horrible with promoting their comics.

I do agree that it is foolish to try to sell something like Hernandez to the superhero audience, because, well, obviously that's unlikely to be something they may be into. I am baffled why DC doesn't make any attempt to promote it (and other Vertigo comics) to a market that may appreciate it. A market that may not read other comics, for example...

It's no secret why the Sandman, Preacher, 100 Bullets, Hellblazer and Transmetropolitan have been the bestselling Vertigo comics all this time: it's because they have the most superhero-fan-crossover appeal. It's certainly not because they are BETTER than the other comics (though Preacher was very brilliant and Sandman had its moments)...

12:21 / 27.12.01

I managed to get issue two of Grip. What issue are they up to? Has the thing finished? My comic shop is so crap, they wouldn't recognise Gilbert Hernandez if he shuffled in on his knees while giving a blow job to Dan Clowes and being felched by Chris Ware.

In fact, they wouldn't even know what was going on, unless Brian Bendis turned up to explain to them in his "wonderful" clipped dialogue.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

18:34 / 27.12.01

It is up to issue #2.

Imaginary Mongoose Solutions

18:40 / 27.12.01

Edited because I'm a mo-ron.

[ 27-12-2001: Message edited by: kevin ]

19:07 / 27.12.01

You can delete posts as well, Kevin.

Well, actually, I guess you can't.

But I think you cats are barking up the tree the with wrong 'coon.

Vertigo's prestige shouldn't be coming from their monthlies, but from some of their
graphic novels and limited runs. Things like Viels, the Dream Hunters, Heavy Liquid, and (now) Grip are hot shit, imho.

Hellblazer remains fun as well, can't wait to see what the new author has in store.

-Jesse

[ 29-12-2001: Message edited by: Rev. Jesse ]

Pin

17:36 / 30.12.01

So is Grip going to be released as a graphic novel? And if so, how long do I have to wait?

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