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DK2

 
  

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yawn - thing's buddy
12:53 / 05.12.01
So, any of you brothers ( ) paid dollars for this book yet?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:08 / 05.12.01
I was talking to guy at the shop, asking if the '20 copy limit' sign was a sarcastic joke or something, and then he alerted me that there was already three different guys coming in wanting to buy upwards of that number already.

Comic collectors are sick, sick motherfuckers.

The cover is twelve steps beyond ugly, by the way.
 
 
sleazenation
13:21 / 05.12.01
aside from other dealers what kind of sick individual would actually want 20 copies of the same over printed funnybook?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:41 / 05.12.01
i was kind of hoping this could be a discussion thread about the comic.

man there sure is a lot of hate in you brothersuckers!
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
13:43 / 05.12.01
Mmhm.

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Undergoing Virtual Therapy ]
 
 
CameronStewart
13:48 / 05.12.01
I just back from the shop - While browsing the new books I asked the manager "Should I even bother looking at Dark Knight 2?"

He shook his head gravely, then flipped open a copy to show me one drawing - a fuck-hideous, misshapen scrawl that I think was meant to be a woman. "That's all you need to see," he said.

Against better judgement I had a look through anyway. It's a truly grotesquely ugly comic.

Boy, am I glad Frank Miller is going to save the comic industry!
 
 
DaveBCooper
13:49 / 05.12.01
Since I can't get into the 'I'm No Fan Of...' thread right now, here's a link to an interview with Frank :
http://www.theonionavclub.com/avclub3744/avfeature_3744.html

Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere.

DBC
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:08 / 05.12.01
fire a fatwa off on the radge why done cha!
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
15:48 / 05.12.01
I'm kind of amazed that anyone wants to buy it every 6 week, when we all know it will be collected as a trade paperback within weeks of being complete.

That's the sickness of comic collector4s I don't get. The need to buy parts of a story instead of the whole damn thing at once.

And I won't get into liking Miller or not. I do. But I like crime fiction more than any other genre anyway. And let's face it...comic stores desperately need the money this sumbitch will bring in.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:33 / 05.12.01
The guy at the shop explained that some folks sell them on ebay. Which makes no sense: DK2 has the largest print run of any comic since the early 90s, it's available in real book stores, every comic shop ordered more than what the actual demand required...the guy said the same thing happened with the Wolverine Origin comics, and that those are all being sold by folks for $30 and over. Dude, I'll give someone issue #1 for free, it was such vile crap.

I looked through Dark Knight, it looked terrible, and the bits of dialog I picked up were typical Frank Miller action movie nonsense.

I find it insulting that he is considered one of the great comics writers when in reality he is little more than a second-rate b-movie hack writer who is slumming in comics. Remember, this is a guy who felt he was moving up in the world cos he was writing Robocop screenplays. This man should NOT be taken seriously.
 
 
Captain Zoom
19:20 / 05.12.01
I didn't mind it, though the dialogue that seemed cool in the Dark Knight just seems dated now. The art wasn't quite as tight either. Frank should have got Klaus Jansson to ink instead. I want to know where the story's going, which is really all the comic has to accomplish for DC to feel it's successful, I'm sure. It was pleasant to see Barry Allen again.

Zoom.
 
 
Sam Lowry
20:20 / 05.12.01
The Second Coming: a review...

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:26 / 05.12.01
and here's Newsarama's review.

[ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: FLUX = reborn ]
 
 
The Knowledge +1
09:20 / 06.12.01
Cameron, I've got yo stop you there- You based your analysis of the art of the series on one panel? I don't mean to be condescending as I can't draw for shit, and I know its your opinion only, but as someone who works in comics, can't you at least exercise a little bit of professional distancing? Cause no insult intended, I haven't seen a lot of your work, but after Hellblazer and Invisibles I think you'd have to admit that you aren't even half the artist that Miller is.

No insult intended, I'm just pissed that, like most on-line comic critics, especially of this series, you've completely dismissed it without reading it.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
09:24 / 06.12.01
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Knowledge +1:
but after Hellblazer and Invisibles I think you'd have to admit that you aren't even half the artist that Miller is.

bwa ha ha!

No insult intended, I'm just pissed that, like most on-line comic critics, especially of this series, you've completely dismissed it without reading it.

and I'm 'pissed' that like most online fanboys, you're praising it beyond its merits, laying on unrealistic hyperbole on the most-hyped superhero comic in ages. The same thing happens with Radiohead whenever one of their records comes out...some fans and reviewers just completely lose it and can't see the forrest for the trees, even if the album if fantastic, it gets superlatives that it probably doesn't warrant...
 
 
01
09:24 / 06.12.01
Bollocks to all you jaded disbelievers...

I dug the first issue. Why? Because I knew that it couldn't possibly live up to the first one.
a. Part of what made the first one so good, was being introduced to this grim Bat-less world for the first time and being exposed each issue to a new piece of information. (What Robin dead?!! What the Joker still alive?!!!!, Superman an agent of the government?!!!) In DK 2, everything has already been set up. It's continuity from here on in.

b. The art. While I never hated the art in the original, I never really thought it was that amazing. However, 15 years and a few reads later, I couldn't think of anyone other than Jansen doing the art. The book is iconic. Imagine a one shot Preacher sequel with someone other than Dillion doing the art.
Miller's art in parts of DK 2 aren't bad, to be honest. In some ways he keeps true to the flow of the original. In other parts, it ain't so hot.

c. The flow of the book, and "the future". In 86, Miller's version of the future seemed really cutting edge. Now it seems kind of nostalgic. Case in point: we're communicating right now on the web. In some ways we've surpassed his version, but for him to keep continuity he still has to adhere to a "timeline" that he's already set up. Didn't all the flashes between newscasts seem more contemporary in the original? Now they seem almost kitch.

Keeping all these things in mind, DK 2, still makes for a good story. No it can't compare to the original, it doesn't have a hope in hell, but for what it is, it's a good read.
 
 
CameronStewart
09:24 / 06.12.01
>>>Cameron, I've got yo stop you there- You based your analysis of the art of the series on one panel?<<<

If you read beyond that sentence, I say that after being shown that one panel I went on to look through the rest of the book, and I saw more than enough of it to deliver my own humble opinion that it is very poorly drawn and coloured.

>>>Cause no insult intended, I haven't seen a lot of your work, but after Hellblazer and Invisibles I think you'd have to admit that you aren't even half the artist that Miller is.<<<

Deep breath, then slowly and carefully, like to a small child:

Wee-ee-ll, Miller is twice my age, and as such has a teensy bit of an advantage by having a couple of decades more experience than I do. I've only been working in comics for three years, and I'm the very first to admit that I have a lot to learn. I don't think I'm going to be what I consider to be "great" until I get to be well into my middle age, if then. But I'm trying very fucking hard to better myself as an artist - I sit at this desk in this office for 11 hours of every day, working until my fingers hurt so much I can barely hold the brush. Give me twenty years and then make the comparison.

I'm young yet and can't possibly live up to my own unrealistic ideals.

I don't think Miller is a bad artist - there's quite a lot of his work that I like and admire (though admittedly his earlier stuff appeals to me far more than the recent work). But no one is perfect, and all artists produce their share of stinkers. I may not be the world's greatest cartoonist but I think that from almost 20 years of serious study of the artform I know what constitutes "good" and "bad." I do not think that DK2, from what I've seen, is aesthetically well-crafted on any level.

>>>No insult intended,<<<

Hey, none taken. But I do have to say that the excerpt of your script you posted here a while ago was pretentious shit.

But, you know, no insult intended.

[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Tamayyurt
09:24 / 06.12.01
That shit was ugly as fuck! It'll dirty my beautiful comic collection!

no really... ill
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
09:24 / 06.12.01
hey, lettle your jet packs fizzle for a while bro's.

I'll let you know what I think tomorrow.

I'm sure you all can't wait.
 
 
Zen bullet
10:23 / 06.12.01
I, for one, can't!

I must know what you think now! This minute!
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
17:26 / 06.12.01
Really, I just had to share this ...

quote:
From: superhero
Subject: DK2 WHAT YOU DON'T GET ABOUT THE COVER, THE COLORING, AND THE ART!!!!
Comment: The whole big feet and computer coloring thing, the way I see it, is actually a comment (possibly a slam) on how comics are done in todays market. Along with the larger panels and the minimalist, almost no backround at times art I think Miller is making a comment on how most "popular" or "high selling" books are produced today. I think while the original series broke all of comic book conventions with its tiny panels and sparse, dark coloring style this mini-series is commenting on how all of today's books (or a lot of them) don't depend on craftsmanship or storytelling or great writing to sell them but glossy paper, computer coloring effects, "splash paging", and an almost model-t like factory line anime ripoff style of art to hock their comics. HE'S DOING IT AGAIN BUT IN A DIFFERENT WAY! He's making fun of the whole (or most of) the industry in the most subtle of ways and it's so brilliant that most of the fanboys out there won't even get it! They'll just say it's "lazy" and "crappy art" without realising that A) Even crappy Frank Miller art is better story-telling wise than some of what the best cross hatching, amime wannabe artists can do and B)That he's doing it all on purpose! The man is BRILLIANT!!!!!!

 
 
CameronStewart
18:00 / 06.12.01
Ha ha haa! That sets a new standard for self-delusion...
 
 
The Natural Way
06:52 / 07.12.01
Indeed.

I wanted it to be good. It wasn't. Even if the above were true it would still be crap. Perhaps even crapper. I enjoyed parts of it, but basically the whole thing was a shoddy mess for reasons too tedious and numerous to mention. I was prepared to forgive it a bit and then I read the new Authority and got a big rush of, "Yes, Midnighter and Baby Jenny, kill those piece-of-shit cuntprannies now!" and "That's it, boy, knock magnet guy's head off" and realised how fun comics are now, how assured, how well rendered, silly and imaginative and how much I like them and how much the "new" DKs vibe is stuck over a decade in the past.

Pity the arse.
 
 
e-n
07:04 / 07.12.01
What the hell was really with those parts where there was obvious pixellation on the images??
Is it justa fuck up(I'm not talking about the bit with the president).
I ahve to say I couldn;'t affored the dark night returns until a while ago, and so it's still pretty fresh in my mind, but I like the way the storys going so far.
But I'll agree, the art sucks next to my other reads this week, authority, Alias , and (cringe) the doom patrol.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:04 / 07.12.01
Bad "Temporal Flux":

I think I'll ask my 20 month old nephew to draw a few pages of Batman instead (or "Ba-Ba" as he would probably call him). It will probably end up being higher quality art.

You just couldn't resist, could you?

Stay away from those waters, boy!
 
 
DaveBCooper
07:04 / 07.12.01
I’ve read it twice now, and here are some stray thoughts:

(Oh, and: SPOILERS, unsurprisingly)

Both the art and the storytelling suffer in comparison to DKR, in my opinion, due to the absence of Klaus Janson and the use of the sixteen-panel grid. The combined effects of these is to make things look generally looser and less rigid, and combined with the art style that Miller’s developed since the original series, things look more like Batman in Sin City, but that’s kind of an inevitability.

On the other hand, in a way, that could almost be interpreted as (contrary to what people have said, comparing it with the Authority and other more recent titles) a modernisation, as instead of things being propelled along under some kind of enforced narrative structure, there’s a bit more of a sense that Miller’s allowing himself room to play and enjoy certain sequences (such as the Atom’s imprisonment). This is something I’ve seen debated on the WEF a lot – the idea that OGNs are better than ‘pamphlets’/’Singles’ as they mean a story isn’t compressed to fit a certain number of pages – but you could equally argue that it allows creators to pad things out… but I think it would nonetheless suggest that Miller’s not as out-of-touch as people claim he is.

The story’s not as surprising and fresh-seeming, inevitably (how exciting are the Matrix sequels going to seem compared with the original ? Not as, I fear – a large amount of the intrigue and interest stems from gradually coming to understand the world the story takes place in). However, there’s a good sense of utter contempt for Superman and his order-following ilk, and the media speculation about terrorist attacks etc is interesting to see in the light of recent events. The comments I’ve seen on this board that Miller is a B-movie hack and things like that seem unfair to me; a review at the time Watchmen and Dark Knight were new releases said that Moore writes for the head, Miller writes for the gut, and I think that’s the case again here – it’s punchy writing, and (on the whole) effective as such. Though I think the introduction of other characters, especially the Question, into the tale may not be as new-reader-friendly as DKR was, which gave us a quick rundown on characters such as Two-Face; no such recaps here.

And I don’t think the cover was particularly ugly, to be honest – not the best cover I’ve ever seen, nor the worst. And it serves the all-important function that, if someone heard there was a sequel to ‘that Batman story from years ago’ and went into a store looking for it, the fairly distinctive layout and striking image should make itself readily apparent to most eyeballs…

Colouring was a bit patchy, I’d agree; I gather it’s Lynn Varley’s first use of computer colouring ? Perhaps unfortunate that it’s on such a high-profile project, really… but I’ve seen worse (I think issue 7 of Rising Stars is probably the worst – the whole book seemed to be coloured in grey). And IIRC, the colours on DKR got more compex as the series went on, so that could change.

Lettering ? It’s Todd Klein, so who’s going to complain ? Though I kind of wonder why John Costanza wasn’t asked back – anyone know anything on this ?

Anyway, it was all right. I’ve spent worse £5.75s in my life (less than a trip to the cinema in central London), and I’m interested enough to come back for more. And it is, at the end of the day, an 80-page comic, so there was little chance that it was going to be the world-changing event that it was pushed as being. And it’s worth remembering that the original Dark Knight series was something of a sleeper, hardly pushed at all by DC, and only when people read it and responded to it did it get attention and publicity, so it pretty much surpassed limited expectations (both in the audience and - arguably – DC as well). As opposed to this time round, where the expectations are – let’s face it – probably ludicrously high, and more than partly so because of DC’s publicity push.

DBC
 
 
Ganesh
12:39 / 07.12.01
Hm. Bought it yesterday and, after a flick-through, can barely be bothered to read it. Dunno why. Apathy, I s'pose.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
19:21 / 07.12.01
Hi. Me am your biggest fan!

But now me am not so sure.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
19:27 / 07.12.01
ganesh - talking to Frank, not your good self.

will you be back for more suspect culture in the new year?

I'm assured there will be cheeseburgers.
 
 
CameronStewart
02:13 / 08.12.01
The best description of DK2 I've heard yet is that it's "the ESCAPE FROM LA of comics."

A pointless, overblown, unnecessary sequel that ends up being nothing more than an inferior remake of its predecessor.
 
 
The Knowledge +1
02:13 / 08.12.01
Have you read it yet Cameron?

I'm reading it Monday. Will post as to whether I think it's shit, great or somewhere in-between.
 
 
Ganesh
10:59 / 08.12.01
quote:Originally posted by I am SHAKO:
will you be back for more suspect culture in the new year?

I'm assured there will be cheeseburgers.


Quite possibly. Will there be relatively oversized children?
 
 
CameronStewart
12:57 / 08.12.01
>>>Have you read it yet Cameron?<<<

I don't know how much clearer I have to make this - I don't want to read it.

I have NO interest in the story. Zero. I like The Dark Knight Returns as a definitive end to the Batman legend. It's done. Finished. Over. There's no more need be said. I'd like, in my own mind at least, to keep it that way. I don't have to read it.

I've seen the artwork, and it's grotesque and amateurish. And I've been assured by good friends of mine, whose opinions I value far more than yours, Knowledge, that the story is just as terrible.

So why the fuck should I waste my time?

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:29 / 08.12.01
The same thing that Cameron just said goes for me too... I feel no need to read any more Batman comics, I feel as though I've read them all.

Still, if the comic was cheap, like something in the $2-3 range, I might have picked it up out of curiosity. But $8...that can buy me a record, it could buy me lunch, it could be trainfare, it could be three or four other comics...it's not worth spending that much for 1/3 of a story, sorry.
 
 
CameronStewart
13:49 / 08.12.01
>>>The same thing that Cameron just said goes for me too... I feel no need to read any more Batman comics, I feel as though I've read them all. <<<

I'm not saying I never want to read another Batman comic - I'm sure that some talented creators could still squeeze a few worthwhile tales out of the character. I just don't want to read one set after DKR, which was supposed to be the Last Batman Story.
 
  

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