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Is Batman a Superhero?

 
  

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Bear
08:56 / 26.10.01
Someone we've just been argueing about in the office..I was winding up a workmate saying that Batman is not a superhero because he doesn't have any powers, just money.. do i have a point?.. u people seem to know your stuff so what do you think? Superhero or Vigilante?
 
 
sleazenation
08:56 / 26.10.01
This comes down very much to semantics.

one mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that (war against freedom fighters anyone?)

As far as i'm concerned Batman is most definitely a vigilante detective rather than a superhero - and while most superheros have flawless morals set about upholding the status quo batman has always been slightly different - basically Batm,an can be all things to all men- a violent vigilante that takes justice into hias own hands and a tortured soul who wants to aid the police in seeing justice done whilst A) remaining outside their organisation and thus pure of its corruption and B) creating fear amongst the criminals that hurt him by killing his parent and boosting his own self esteme in the meantime .

Bottomline
Batman has got more of a personal axe to grind than most costumed - heroes and is thus one of the more interesting characters in the world of super heroes
 
 
deja_vroom
10:29 / 26.10.01
off-topic

I think batman works best in a noir detective like environment (those psychos he fights are cool, too)
Having him piloting a plane with other super-types against aliens completely ruins the strength of the character, don't you think?
 
 
Sax
11:02 / 26.10.01
Ah, but to the general public in the DC Universe, who live in a world teeming with super-beings, all they see is this shadowy costumed vigilante, and they wouldn't really know if he had super powers or not. So he's a superhero by default. Unless you come from another universe and read Batman comics.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:14 / 26.10.01
The fact that he wears that costume is enough for him to be thrown into the superhero camp, as that is a trope that is found nowhere else other than in that genre.

The character was conceived as a superhero detective vigilante, and I would say that no matter who does the comic or what direction they take it in, he is generally all three at once.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
14:58 / 26.10.01
To further muddy things, I have to point out that nearly all superheroes are vigilantes, except the very few that actually have badges, obey civil authority, etc. The cast of Alan Moore’s Top Ten, for example, are not vigilantes.
 
 
sleazenation
17:03 / 26.10.01
while any superhero who is not sanctioned by a governmental or quasi governmetal body would be a vigilanty most of them at least serve the status quo - ie hunt down crooks and then send them to the police when they capture them rather than taking justice into their own hands--

I suppose if you wanted to push it you could say that most superheroes perform a flambouant form of citizens arrest that bordsers on vigilantism but few really cross that line.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:09 / 26.10.01
BATMAN:

I would have to catagorise him as a sort of Super-Detective, the key distinction is the definition of "hero". In my opinion one of that charactor's greatest strengths is his versitility. His "super-power" aside from a super bank account, would be his will,determination & adaptability.

While among the J.L.A. of course he's a hero, by association, the JLA regularly commits heroic acts & his participation is thus heroic. His motivations(and methods) however are not quite as heroic. Classicly a hero could be seen as one who commits to a self-less act at personal risk (in that context one could call into question SUPERMAN's heroism simply based on the level of risk an invulnerable being would be taking) on BATMAN's part, the question could be; how much of his actions could be considered selfless?

It's commonly accepted that BATMAN's Detective skills are without equal, surpassing even his JLA collegue The Martian Manhunter who is a superpowered shapeshifting telepath. Speaking of Jonn Jonnz, he's arguably a greater hero than even Superman simply based on the number of times that charactor has been subjected to risk & personal injury. Still the comparison can certainly support a theory of BATMAN being more of a Super-Detective than a Super-Hero.

Now as a job or skill, Detectives are either self-employed/Freelance or ranked among a system as in Police Detective. Again here's where BATMAN's personal motivation pull him out of either catagory & into one of his own. Obviously he is not an offically deputised agent of the City,State or county (except in the 60's TV show), he is his own boss, as well as the "boss" of others. Yet BATMAN holds a work ethic that places his activities much closer to that of a relegion/spiritual calling or a psychosis/obsession. Thus it's also arguable that the term Super-Detective is only applicable in so much as to distinguish him from a Super-Hero.

So Then comes the question of his Motivation. Yes it could be said that BATMAN is a sort of Super-vigilantie operating outside of the "law" to enact his own brand of Justice. Perhaps also the term Super-Crusader may be suitable. Let's see . . .

vig·i·lan·te: n.
One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

cru·sade: n.
1.often Crusade Any of the military expeditions undertaken by European Christians in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries to recover the Holy Land from the Muslims.
2.A holy war undertaken with papal sanction.
3.A vigorous concerted movement for a cause or against an abuse.

It would seem that definition 3 of crusade is of particular interest. (difinitions aquired fromdictionary.com)

So, does BATMAN take action based on:

1) a belief that Law enforcement in Gothom city is inadequate?
Or does he...
2) believe his mission to be a devine calling?
or perhaps...
3) the only means of "honoring" the loss of his parents?

If his motivation is #1, then he is a Super-Vigilante/Detective... this of course would call into question why participate in the JLA? To gain credability? as a preventative measure to continue his campaign?

If his motivation is #2 or #3 then he's a Crusading Super-Detective, or a Super-Detective Crusader, or a Super-Crusader Detective. In this case his membership in the JLA could be seen as a logicial expansion of his personal crusade onto the Global (and beyond) scale.

Jeeeze . . .

next essay...
Who's Kungfu is better, BATMAN or BRUCE LEE's???

 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:20 / 26.10.01
Ah, but to the general public in the DC Universe, who live in a world teeming with super-beings, all they see is this shadowy costumed vigilante, and they wouldn't really know if he had super powers or not.

There was a neat episode of "Batman: The Animated Series" that got that point across. There was a rookie police officer who was describing his first sighting of Batman; he was narrating over a flashback of the action. He would describe something he saw in supernatural terms -- "He just pointed his arm and a blast of energy came out!" -- and we the viewers saw him fire a taser which hit the target and sent a burst of electricity down the wire. That sort of thing.
 
 
Sandy Haired Bruce Wayne
03:19 / 28.10.01
One of the key differences between Marvel and DC is one of continuity. DC characters tend to be more iconic. At any given moment they can be changed or rebooted and no one really seems to mind. That's because they draw from very basic, immutable origins. Boy's parents are killed, he trains to fight crime, takes on the mantle of the beast to frighten his prey. From that start Batman can be anything. Vigilante, Detective, Superhero, Camp Icon, etc. Many times DC has allowed the wirters of each of teh Batman books to allow the titles to be themed, in that Batman is almost completely different in each issue. Yet, at his core he remains the same.

Classicly a hero could be seen as one who commits to a self-less act at personal risk (in that context one could call into question SUPERMAN's heroism simply based on the level of risk an invulnerable being would be taking).

Loved your post, Patricky, but I disagree with you on that one point. I've had this arguement more than once. Superman is not completely invunerable. He does risk his personal safety, ableit on a higher level. One's preference of Batman or Superman usually depends on being the best a human can be or being post-human while retaining your humility. Me, I want to fly.
 
 
Mr Tricks
04:35 / 28.10.01
He does risk his personal safety, ableit on a higher level. One's preference of Batman or Superman usually depends on being the best a human can be or being post-human while retaining your humility. Me, I want to fly.

There was a recient issue of DETECTIVE comics where BATMAN takes his Bodyguard out for a night on the town. It's her first night swinging, and after getting over her initial fear (and with a bit of a push on Batman's part) she's sooooring from roof-top 2 roof-top.

I guess it's like flying . . .

On Superman... I would see his Heroism in the determination to be fully human... again as the only true way he can honor his parents as well...

There was also an interesting elsewords where WAYNE interprises finds the rocket from Krypton and the infant Kal-EL is raised as Bruce Wayne who witnesses his Parents' murder just before his powers manifest . . . well imagine where it goes from there . . .

still toying with the KUNGFU aspects as well . . .
 
 
Ulic
02:02 / 14.02.03
I just read Batman: the long halloween, and victry, those are two of the best batman comics ever; another one is "the killing joke". I think a true batman movie has to be like this comics, with a R rating, not a pg-13 rating, batman is not what you see at the movies, batman is what you read.
Ulic
 
 
Seth
05:48 / 14.02.03
Batman's a scientist.
 
 
LDones
07:17 / 14.02.03
And a good number of scientists are also secretly ninjas, if I'm not mistaken.

Batman is most certainly a superhero, or at least, functions most interestingly as one. He's 'human', but his abilities are quite obviously beyond normal reason. I think it's the fantasy about the character that makes him a superhero, but certainly a more pulp-friendly archetype (ie. Doc Savage, etc.).

I've always felt the character functions more interestingly as a 'super-hero'. Being a super-hero gives all of the 'cool' aspects of the character room to play, more to bounce off of. The 'World's Finest' issues from the 80's are great comics reading, and the best on-going Batman title in the past 10 years is probably Morrison's JLA. I've found all of the pseudo-noir storytelling from the past 4-5 years, on par, to be abysmally uninteresting.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:22 / 14.02.03
So Iron Man isn't a superhero either...
 
 
Sax
12:58 / 14.02.03
Super-clothing counts as super-powers though, doesn't it?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:18 / 14.02.03
This is getting silly. One does not need to have superpowers to be a superhero. It just doesn't work that way.

Batman's a superhero. Go anywhere, ask people to list off superheroes, and Batman will be mentioned by just about everyone.

Batman is practically synonymous with the word 'superhero'.
 
 
A
06:21 / 16.02.03
He's superhero and vigilante. And scientist. And bad-arse kung-fu guy. And detective. And spy. And debonair lady's man. And gay icon. And a whole bunch of other cool things besides. And that's why we love him.
 
 
Brigade du jour
20:27 / 16.02.03
Certainly a superhero in the sense that he can do all of the things listed by Count Adam above, and all expertly too. Jack of all trades, and master of them as well.
 
 
matsya
21:10 / 16.02.03
but who would win a fight out of superman and the hulk?

m.
 
 
Brigade du jour
21:12 / 16.02.03
Um ... don't see what that's got to do with this thread, but assuming you have a point to make about Batman and my answer will facilitate that, Superman. Inferior strength maybe, but superior intellect (assuming further that it's the 'classic' child's-mind Hulk). Then again, not much fighting skill on Supes' part. Hmm, interesting.
 
 
matsya
00:10 / 17.02.03
thanks. now what about Shazam vs. the thing?

m.
 
 
Char Aina
03:21 / 17.02.03
thats a ridiculous question.
 
 
Brigade du jour
04:29 / 17.02.03
The Thing, easy. He's bigger, stronger, and if he was flagging he could say stuff about his opponent's mum and make him cry.

IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!
 
 
A
07:05 / 17.02.03
Come on. Supes is clearly stronger than the Hulk, and a genius to boot. And superman can shoot heat rays out of his eyes.

I think that the Thing would beat Shazam, though, because he is a crusty old wizard, and dead, to boot. (See, i know you probably meant Captain Marvel, but I'm being annoying.)
 
 
matsya
08:52 / 17.02.03
Man Thing versus Wonder Girl?

m.
 
 
A
09:18 / 17.02.03
That would be a moving love story in the spirit of Beauty and the Beast.
 
 
Sax
12:41 / 17.02.03
Mmm. The Amazon princess versus the Monster of MUCK!

Straight to video. Ask your older brother to rent it for you.
 
 
matsya
20:55 / 17.02.03
spiderman versus she-ra, princess of power?

m.
 
 
Elbereth
00:56 / 18.02.03
didn't Superman fight the Hulk in that crossover comic book a while back? I think supeman won. But I don't think Superman is stronger than the Hulk because his strength increases exponentially based on his emotions whereas superman's strength is finite.
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:03 / 18.02.03
She-Ra, obv.
 
 
Haus, Heart, Home, Hearth
09:33 / 26.03.04

But can Superman outrun the Flash?


!?!?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
09:40 / 26.03.04
No, Wally West Flash is faster.
 
 
Sax
10:08 / 26.03.04
Who could make his knob bigger, Mr Fantastic, Plastic Man, the Elongated Man or Metamorpho? Inquiring Amazons need to know.
 
 
_Boboss
10:47 / 26.03.04
plas has the perviest history, so i'll go for him, he'd win on enthusiasm. but metamorpho could make his wa-hang out of any known substance. would be interesting to watch.
 
  

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