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The late comics problem

 
  

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Sylvia
05:36 / 07.01.07
I don't mind the waiting so much as the lying.

"It'll be done in January!"

"It's been pushed back to March!"

"Okay guys look for an April release."

"We're working on it already, so look for it in August."

"Making comics is very hard and if the fans want anything at this point they'll shut up and wait for September."

I'd respect a simple "It'll be done when it's done" a hundred times more than that. (Christ, for advertising purposes they could just be really vague. COMING SOMETIME in 2007. It works for a lot of other media)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:49 / 07.01.07
I don't mind the waiting so much as the lying.

Exactly.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
19:57 / 07.01.07
Which is why I don't mind about Quitely's Supes (y'hear that John Byrne? SUPES!). Morrison was very upfront about the likeliness that it would run late, and that it would never have a fill in artist.
 
 
The Falcon
22:48 / 07.01.07
Was Promethea late at all? Serious question. JHWilliams and GM were amazingly late on 7S. Moore was teeth-gnbashingly late on League of Ex Gentlemen. Anybody know?

It certainly wasn't monthly or regular, bimonthly at best iirc - although I only started buying singles at #6 or #7, but then the ABC books generally just appeared when they appeared. Williams can actually produce six or seven comics a year, I think; he did some Desolation Jones, one 'tec and that amazing 7S capper last year.
 
 
Mario
11:17 / 08.01.07
I'm also more likely to wait for a standalone series, as opposed to one that affects other books. Hence, I'll give A*S more time than a crossover.
 
 
Spaniel
14:51 / 08.01.07
You know, downloading comics isn't going to solve your problems.

Yes, I do know that. Where did I say it would?

in other creative industries deadlines and/or release dates are not dictated by artistic whim.

Maybe the world would be better were it true.

Well, as someone who thinks deadlines and editors can be a very good thing in that they can help temper and galvanise creative energies, I'm inclined to disagree.

Janean, I think the point about feeling other's pain is valid because, unlike adverts on tv, lateness is not an intractible problem - it is often the product of bad planning and/or over extension on behalf of publishers and creators. It isn't just a fact of the world so get used to it, fella, kind of situation - it's a problem that grows out of real live humans being unprofessional. Sure, comics used to have fill-in issues, and I'm not for a minute suggesting that lateness can be entirely quashed, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the situation is a little out of hand.

On the question of the lying, yeah, that does compound the situation, but I feel it's a seperate, if closely related problem. I like buying my comics monthly in that my passion for all but the very best stories tends to wane after more than a few weeks. On the whole I usually enjoy stories more when I don't have to wait four months between issues, and, frankly, I think a lot of people posting in this thread probably feel the same way, but for some reason feel disinclined to say so.

It's worth pointing out that wotisface from the X-Axis identifies another issue on top of the lying: the affrontedness. The suggestion that to complain about lateness is simply unreasonable and quite possibly hurtful. A fucking ridiculous stance, I hope we can all agree.
 
 
Sylvia
02:59 / 09.01.07
It's worth pointing out that wotisface from the X-Axis identifies another issue on top of the lying: the affrontedness. The suggestion that to complain about lateness is simply unreasonable and quite possibly hurtful. A fucking ridiculous stance, I hope we can all agree.

Yes. A thousand times yes.

I'm not expecting sloppy fanservice-jobs from the industry, just a little humility when being confronted with the fact that they didn't live up to their words. A simple sorry without any weakening or accusing qualifications when something ships late, for whatever reason, would be appreciated. It would make everyone involved look and maybe even feel more professional.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:13 / 09.01.07
Boboss: Well, as someone who thinks deadlines and editors can be a very good thing in that they can help temper and galvanise creative energies, I'm inclined to disagree.

Depends on the deadline, obviously. It does work, as anyone who's done creative work knows - they've commissioned it? We're doing it? Time to get serious - but it's ridiculously easy to find examples where it's harmed the work. Transmetropolitan serves as one; the creative team were proud of never missing a deadline, but because Ellis had problems producing the scripts Robertson had less and less time to draw them, and the art noticeably declines in quality over the last ten issues or so. Reading it in trade after the fact, are you likely to be impressed that the deadlines were kept or annoyed at the lack of the great backgrounds that characterised the series early on? Ellis, who IIRC was very ill at the time, and Robertson were extremely professional. The work has lost out because of that.

Other creative industries blow deadlines constantly and they're designed around it. Publishers go to press when a book is ready, though, rather than demanding it be ready for a certain date. If Thomas Pynchon hadn't finished his latest until today there would be no crisis. Bands, other than pop acts who need a constant presence these days, can take time off, record albums and scrap them, etc. Movie release dates are changed. It probably would have suited V For Vendetta better to be released on November 5th, but it wasn't. It managed.

I think the point about feeling other's pain is valid because, unlike adverts on tv, lateness is not an intractible problem - it is often the product of bad planning and/or over extension on behalf of publishers and creators. It isn't just a fact of the world so get used to it, fella, kind of situation - it's a problem that grows out of real live humans being unprofessional.

I don't feel your pain, though. Not wanting to be at all antagonistic. I just think you should change to trades. I know your pain isn't self-inflicted, but from my perspective that appears to be the simple solution. I mean, I'd love there to be a great comic shop near me that I could pop into weekly and check out the latest Drawn & Quarterly graphic novels. Instead there's a cesspit full of porn and figures and console games that I walk away from cursing, so I get my fix off the internet instead. Neither problem - late comics or horrible shops - is seemingly impossible to fix, but in the absence of any immediate solution I prefer to not enrage myself by engaging with an aspect of the industry which I hate.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that lateness can be entirely quashed, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the situation is a little out of hand. I like buying my comics monthly in that my passion for all but the very best stories tends to wane after more than a few weeks. On the whole I usually enjoy stories more when I don't have to wait four months between issues, and, frankly, I think a lot of people posting in this thread probably feel the same way, but for some reason feel disinclined to say so.

The issue for me is with the industry, which is still stuck in a newsstand paradigm and believes comics should be monthly. The problem is making this demand compatible with the desire to have a particular creative team producing a consistent run of comics. In situations like Ult Hulk vs Wolvie (fuck you, John Byrne) then Marvel have been massively unprofessional in publishing #1 without even a script for #2. No big publisher can get away with that for long, though. Look at Image. It had to seriously clean house and change its ways in order to carry on.

The fans themselves want monthly work. The often-suggested idea that slow artists like Quitely can just do OGNs hasn't been realised because they don't have the same impact on the market as monthlies. The 49ers had a hot artist and comics' favourite writer, but didn't make the impact it could have as a monthly series. Plus it didn't allow the company to make two lots of profit. Until the bookstore model supplants the monthly market, we're going to have late books.

I didn't expect this much anger about them, I have to admit. I was taking the long perspective, looking at books so late they became outmoded. A*S should have had a trade out in time for the movie last year; it didn't. Lateness has made it a speciality book, one for the Grant fans. Late books are lesser books in the eyes of fandom, to generalise.

The suggestion that to complain about lateness is simply unreasonable and quite possibly hurtful. A fucking ridiculous stance, I hope we can all agree.

Absolutely. But there are so many people out there making you look bad, demanding to know why the artist hasn't drawn it yet, demanding to know the details of Busiek's serious medical problem before they're willing to absolve him, demanding that Bryan Hitch gets back to his drawing board whether his wife's ill or not. They give reasonable complaints a bad name.
 
 
Spaniel
11:40 / 09.01.07
I'm not sure that deadlines are busted very often elsewhere when the work has been promised to the public by a given date. Also, I'm not sure it's relevant to start talking about enterprises where the concept of lateness might not even properly apply - band videos or albums, for example (note the use of the word "might" - I understand that there may be contractual obligations and/or production dealines to be met - these things, however, don't mean much to the consumer, and it's consumers I'm concerned about primarily).

On the question of picking up more books in trade form, as I've said elsewhere, I'm seriously thinking about it (I've made a conscious decision to wait for the next Runaways' trade). The unholy triumverate of decompression*, adverts and lateness make the prospect of reading most monthlies less than exciting. My main problem with such a move is that it would shutdown one of my favourite pastimes - chatting about this week's comics down the pub - in that my mates are unlikely to take similar action. Also, I'm an impatient bugger, hence all the moaning in this thread.

But finally, and perhaps most importantly, I really resent the idea that it's me that should change my habits, even if I understand that it might be necessary. Lateness is often tied to bad practice and bad practice can and should be dealt with.

*Okay, okay, decompression isn't always a bad thing, and, yeah, the use of the term does often need unpacking, but I think we all know what I'm getting at. Twenty two pages of very little story in conjunction with lateness=no fun
 
 
Spaniel
11:46 / 09.01.07
On this

Well, as someone who thinks deadlines and editors can be a very good thing in that they can help temper and galvanise creative energies, I'm inclined to disagree.

You'll note I've stressed "can" both here and in the original text. I'm not saying that artistic freedom is never a good thing, or that editors and deadlines don't ever kill good ideas and gut stories, I was just taking issue with a rather silly statement and attempting to a paint a more complex, interesting picture.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:59 / 09.01.07
My main problem with such a move is that it would shutdown one of my favourite pastimes - chatting about this week's comics down the pub - in that my mates are unlikely to take similar action.

I know I didn't have a lot of sympathy before, but... you have mates who read comics? And you buy that week's comics and then chat about them down the pub? Comics are an active, fun part of your social life, rather than an embarrassing secret not to be mentioned in civilised company?

Now I understand why you buy your comics as they come out. Though I still don't sympathise. In fact the sheer envy I'm feeling has kind of made me hate you.
 
 
Spaniel
12:03 / 09.01.07
Well, I used to chat about them down the pub on a regular basis, but these days, avec le babon, I don't get out quite so much.

MacReady, Gumbitch and !MARRIAGE! still get to, though. The fucking bastards.
 
 
Spaniel
12:06 / 09.01.07
Hey, and they're all pretty damn civilised, to boot. Sometimes they're even charming.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:39 / 09.01.07
The other thing to remember about the whole "well, wait for the trades, then" response is that not everything gets collected.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:55 / 09.01.07
And, presumably, that the lower a book's sales, the less it is likely to _be_ collected; so, you get into a kind of direct market prisoner's dilemma, where you don't buy the monthly issues, but you very much hope that other people do.
 
 
Spaniel
13:22 / 09.01.07
Yes, I found myself buying Seven Soldiers in serialized form because I wanted to support Grunticus. I feel the need to support my favourite creators, however irrational that need may be.
 
 
Janean Patience
19:24 / 09.01.07
Haus: Presumably, that the lower a book's sales, the less it is likely to _be_ collected; so, you get into a kind of direct market prisoner's dilemma, where you don't buy the monthly issues, but you very much hope that other people do.

Not these days, in my experience. We're straying away from lateness here, but trades bunch at the high and low end of the market irrespective of sales. Using Joe Matt as an indie example, I doubt sales on Peepshow over the last four issues reached 10,000 each. I dimly recall him saying they're about 5,000, in fact, though don't ask me where I read that. There will still be a trade because he's creating them for the trade; serialisation is just a precursor to the finished book, which will probably sell much more than the singles because your comics-are-literature type prefers a book on his shelf.

At the other end of the market, high-selling comics by the likes of Moore and Bendis and Morrison also automatically get trades. These are marquee names that will, it's hoped, attract casual buyers who're too high-powered and high-earning to drop by the comics store every week. There's also now a significant market waiting for the trades on those books, and a number of fans who'll shell out twice for a fancy edition of their favourite story.

The only area where sales still affect trade collection, IMHO, is the middle of the market. Low-selling superhero stuff with far more people buying the singles than Joe Matt gets, but not enough to signal that they'd reach a wider audience. New Firestorm series, or collections of unpopular Green Lantern minis, or Fantastic Four side projects. If the book's an unexpected sell-out, a trade will be produced, but otherwise superfans pick up their supercomics weekly and their collections are their only library.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:34 / 09.01.07
So, in order to have your low-selling superhero comic collected, you have to hope other people buy it, even if you don't because you are waiting for the trade, so that the trade comes into being. QED, yes?
 
 
Janean Patience
08:02 / 10.01.07
Yeah... unless the company decides to support the book with trades like DC with Manhunter in the hope of getting more sales for the monthly, or if the series has already been collected under a previous writer and there's perceived to be an audience waiting for trades as with Green Arrow, or if you've got a creator who sells well in trades like with Kyle Baker's Plastic Man...

I've never seen why the sales figures argument is only applied to singles. If the singles don't do well but the trades do, surely that justifies continuing to publish both. Many Vertigo titles run on this logic, IIRC. The comic that doesn't get collected seems to me increasingly to be the exception.

None of which is The Late Comics Problem, so this line of argument should probably go to another thread...
 
 
PatrickMM
00:36 / 14.01.07
I think the most comprable medium is TV. The Sopranos may have a long wait between seasons, but there's never a Sunday where someone comes on and says "Sorry, we couldn't finish the episode in time, come back next week." Shows are given a schedule they have to keep and there's no option, they must finish the episodes on time. I've read stories about shows like The X-Files and South Park that are finishing up hours before the episode's supposed to air, but they always finish it, there's no option.

I have no problem with people taking as much time as they need, but don't put an issue out until you've got at least a couple more done. In the case of Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk, don't put out the issue until at least all the scripts for the mini are done. I think there's a temptation to want to get stuff out there, once you announce a project, you don't want to have to say and it'll be out in a year. The Morrison/Lee Wildcats is a great example, they wanted it to be a big event, they put out the first issue and then nothing for a few months.

In general, I think artists could stick to their deadlines a little better. People in film and TV are working over twelve hours a day to get this stuff out, and if comics artists have a deadline to get the book out, I don't think it's ridiculous to ask for that same kind of work schedule. Admittedly, it's different because the art is just one guy and TV has a whole team of people to keep an eye on the creative flow, but still, promoting a mini like Civil War or Ultimate Hulk to people outside the comics community is totally pointless if the issues don't come out on a regular schedule.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:59 / 14.01.07
(Boboss here, stuck in !MARRIAGE!'s fictionsuit)

T.V. seems to be the most comparable medium to me too

...but don't put an issue out until you've got at least a couple more done... don't put out the issue until at least all the scripts for the mini are done.

That's the kind of practice I was getting at above when I said things don't have to be like this. I'm interested in whether there are problems associated with these kinds of publishing strategies. Cameron?
 
 
Janean Patience
15:25 / 16.01.07
Patrick MM: I think the most comparable medium is TV. I think artists could stick to their deadlines a little better. People in film and TV are working over twelve hours a day to get this stuff out, and if comics artists have a deadline to get the book out, I don't think it's ridiculous to ask for that same kind of work schedule. Admittedly, it's different because the art is just one guy and TV has a whole team of people to keep an eye on the creative flow.

This is the crucial difference, though, innit? If comics are done like TV, one writer's vision may be behind the whole thing but a whole team of writers, producers, directors, cinematographers, actors and techical crew are tasked with delivering it. Deadwood is indisputably David Milch's baby, but how often does he write, let alone write and direct? That works fine for TV because it's already a medium with a lot of mediation. Even the most rampant auteur doesn't work the camera, do the lighting, cast, edit. Well, maybe Russ Meyer.

If comics are done with a team of writers, pencillers, colourists etc and the whole vision is driven editorially, like a 90s X-Men crossover, it's not hard to make them timely. Unfortunately the more acclaimed works of recent years are products of a single team, whether just one person or a single writer working with a single artist. So our demand is for a singular artistic vision done by the same team who began it, but delivered to a punishing schedule. Is there any other industry that demands that and gets it?
 
 
Mario
15:49 / 16.01.07
Newspaper reporter?

If the schedule is the problem, then relax the schedule. I see no problem with a comic being bimonthly or quarterly. But when there are delays on top of delays on top of delays, it starts looking less like overwork, and more like unprofessionalism.

(See ASBats)
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
16:02 / 16.01.07
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's brought up the European bédé model, which is... well, comics, done well, without deadlines. The stories are generally serialized (most bédé run in a set from 1-4 or 1-6, with exceptions like Decalogue, which ran 11 (!), or ongoing series like Largo Winch and good ol' Tintin). Many of the most popular are standalone stories with carryover, but my favourites tend to be finite series.

I've never noticed any deadline pressure in the bédé community. I live in Quebec, so while I'm not exactly in the thick of it, bédé is carried by every major bookstore en masse and can be found in every library. And it just seems to come out when it comes out. I've been waiting over 18 months for a new Donjon, and while I find that frustrating, I just read other stuff.

But I think North American comics need to wake up to the fact that there is a thriving comic-book industry across the Atlantic, that runs without deadlines in order to do everything at absolutely pip-squeaking quality. While I'd be thrilled if Tokyo Ghost were coming out monthly, I'd rather wait a year for Tokyo Ghost II rather than deal with appalingly sub-par work.

The core point here: comic books are being done and being done superbly and successfully in a deadline-light environment. It just doesn't happen to be an English environment, so the North American fans don't see how well all that works out.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
16:07 / 16.01.07
If anyone has any insight on the Manga industry, I'd love to know if there's a Japanese focus on deadlines similar to the Americans'.

My only information on the workaday scene in the manga industry comes from the Ambush Bug Stocking Stuffer Special, and I doubt that a Giffen parody comic from 1986 is really a stellar portrait of the Japanese comic scene today.
 
 
Mario
17:11 / 16.01.07
Yes and no. Some manga magazines come out weekly, but the chapters are shorter, and usually not in color.
 
 
Janean Patience
17:12 / 16.01.07
My only information on the workaday scene in the manga industry comes from the Ambush Bug Stocking Stuffer Special

I think the text you're referring to is "That Friendly Little Island In The Sea, Japan (Formerly Japan, Land of Stinkers)" and I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered absolutely accurate. After all, hasn't Combat Cheeks, Frontline Medic replaced A Farewell To Arms as the key text for schoolchildren on World War Two?
 
 
Spaniel
18:01 / 16.01.07
Matt, out of interest, how long is the average bédé comic, and is there usually a focus on serialization - are they written with trades in mind?

I'm interested because infrequent or irregular publication is a lot more bearable when you're talking about long books, or books that work well on their own, or stand alone, or books that carry a satisfying chunk of story, or books that aren't paced with a trade in mind.

It's latenesscombined with the standard Marvel or DC approach to storytelling that causes the problems.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:26 / 16.01.07
A standard BD is, as I recall -- I don't have anything in front of me, I'm at work -- 54 to 72 pages. They're much larger than pamphlet comics (the same height and width as "art books," if that helps) but generally have larger panels and more lavish artwork with the same amount of "content" as Americomics.

Hardcover, which is nice, but about CAD$20-28 per book, which is much less nice. So Americomics actually deliver more CONTENT for the dollar by a factor of about 4, but BD are bigger, more gorgeous, and look better on the bookshelf.

I agree that a longer wait is more satisfying when the book itself is longer, but we're talking like the equivalent of 3 comics per BD and a wait of 12-18 months between them, usually. Nothing compared to 22 pages per month, every month.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:28 / 16.01.07
Oh, and the "hardcover factor" seems to sidestep the trade idea. The only BD I've ever seen recollected in a larger single edition (I'm no expert, mind you) is Rouge de Chine.

Most of the best ones are the equivalent of mini-series, with beginnings, middles and ends pre-planned when the series starts. Several are ongoing, and many of those are cliffhanger books for sure.

There's also a lot of the approach of finite series that fit in with a larger body of work, like Dark Horse kinda sorta pioneered in North America with the Terminator and Aliens books back in the '90s.
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
18:41 / 16.01.07
From what I understand, the early invisibles got it right in theory, with a new artist doing the 4 issue runs (on time?).

To me this is the best solution:
One writer
and three or four artists who rotate between archs.

If the writer works in advance, artist 1 can be working on story x, while artist 3 is pencilling story y (I no good at teh math) if you follow. This way as long as the writer works a few arcs ahead of schedule, then the end result would be a timely and artistically successful comic series. This approach works best with the franchise books, but it could apply elsewhere.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:34 / 18.05.07
An excellent column by Brian Hibbs illustrates the problems lateness causes for comics retailers, with particular reference to sales on the epically overdue books that arrived this week, AssBats and Ultimates 2. The later the book, the lower the sales. How this translates into trades (I'm waiting for the trade on both) isn't discussed.

What's more interesting is the retailer's reaction to 52 which was a real banker. All those involved with the series have spoken about "building the weekly machine" and its short-term legacy would appear to be that system. Multiple writers in a consistent team, Giffen on layouts, multiple artists. It's a TV model and Countdown moves even closer to that with Dini as the Joss Whedon and a team working on his plots. It's a way not to miss deadlines and make money. Does it sacrifice a certain amount of creative talent? Would we rather have had Waid and Morrison producing work unmistakably their own?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:45 / 18.05.07
While I entirely understand everyone's frustration, I went through more pages than I care to think about with regard to this on ByrneRobotics the other day (JB has a solution for the industry's problems - can anyone guess what it is?) and I now wonder if any comics should ever come out at all. Apart from JB's, of course.

I suppose I rather regret the somewhat unfortunate set of circumstances which led to my on-line ID being politely asked to leave ByrneRobotics, now.

On a number of levels, it would be great to talk to JB about All Star Batman, for example.
 
  

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