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Cerebus

 
  

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Benny the Ball
12:09 / 18.12.05
I've tried to get into Cerebus, but can't. So many people have raved to me about it, and recommended it to me, but I got the first book and really didn't like it. I haven't looked at it since then (I got it about five years ago).

Has the story finished now?
 
 
sleazenation
12:51 / 18.12.05
Yes, the story is finished now.

The first trade really isn't the best place to start when it comes to Cerebus - you should really start with the second which is an engaging and entertainning political satire that sees Cerebus transformed from an anonymous mercenary to a defacto diplomat, a political candidate and more...

If you only read one volume of Cerebus, this would be the one...
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:52 / 18.12.05
I really, really liked Cerebus. I can't imagine having followed it on a monthly basis, as more than most series, this one is just one big story. I can't imagine following the High Society storyline for 2 years. It works so much better in trades.

Having said that, after the (anti-female?) ravings in Reads, I had a hard time continuing with the story. I've yet to read the last three trades, though I will at some point in the future, I'm sure. I think Cerebus falls into that dodgy category of art where you don't necessarily have to like or respect the artists views, but his or her art is pretty phenomenal.

Did that make sense?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:22 / 18.12.05
Yes.

I can't reccommend sticking through Going Home and Form & Void enough, as artistically, they're out of control.
 
 
Spaniel
10:05 / 19.12.05
As long as you understand that form is man and VOID is woman.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
10:28 / 19.12.05
Actually, you don't need to understand that to enjoy the Nth Level storytelling chops on display in both books.

A tool on the opposite side of the fence is just as toolish, Boboss.
 
 
Spaniel
17:05 / 19.12.05
I'd imagine knowing that void is woman would impair my enjoyment somewhat, so by that logic I can see where you're coming from.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:15 / 19.12.05
Actually, my point is that no consideration of Sim's politics is necessary AT ALL to enjoy the technical merits of Form & Void and Going Home.

But if you want to keep going around and around like this, you'll have to excuse me. I'll leave one of those Stuffed Replicas Of Myself I ordered from ACME and you two can just talk all you want. He's all ears. (It was a manufacturing error and it's actually a little creepy to look at.)
 
 
Spaniel
19:02 / 19.12.05
Benjamin, I understand your point, I have always understood your point.
 
 
Triplets
20:26 / 19.12.05
People ususally mark issue 187 as the point where the mysogny kicks in. I think its an issue of Reads. But really its a pretty casual, easy to ignore mysogny
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:20 / 19.12.05
Yeah, geez! It's misogyny. Get a dictionary! There's even one on the internet!

I so don't get this argument as it pertains to the artistic merit of Cerebus. It's not like he uses less lines to draw women. Or he draws them smaller in stature. Or sloppier. If this was a prose novel then, sure, there'd be very little of value. But steering someone away from Cerebus because of its political content proves the essence of an Emotion v. Reason argument in like a millisecond.

Reason would dictate that anyone interested in comics as an artform owes it to themselves to examine works that are clearly pinaccles of the medium, that stretch and often break the boundaries of visual storytelling.

Emotion would dictate that because someone might not agree with his political views, his work is thus not worthy of any kind of examination.

This is an area in which agree with Sim 100%. (And it's why I can get through a very large amount of Reads before I start shaking my head). I just don't ascribe the two camps to any specific gender. Western Society is completely overrun by Emotion-Based "thinking" (turn on the news for twenty seconds and there you go). But it's completely ridiculous to say that these tendencies are only exclusive to women or that all women favor that approach. That's straight up dumb. I know plenty of rational women and emotion-based men, as I'm sure we all do.

Douglas Wolk summed it up quite nicely in his piece on Cerebus in The Believer. It's a cathedral. I can walk into St. Patricks and if I felt like it, I could look at the centuries of oppression and prejudice that stand behind the cathedral (a whole dang of a lot more poisonous than a lone Canadian scribblin' funny books) and deny the edifice any kind of aesthetic worth on those grounds. Or I could, you know, just say "Dang, that's a well put-together building."
 
 
Kirk Ultra
21:24 / 19.12.05
I mean easy to ignore in that it's not nearly as insane as i gets further into the book when he does Tangents.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:26 / 19.12.05
Which isn't actually in the book proper.
 
 
sleazenation
21:34 / 19.12.05
If we do have to get into another thrilling round of Dave-Sim-is-a-mysogynist, can we at least tie it into the Cerebus?

I'd be particularly interested in hearing some detailed commentary of the way in which the subject was broched in issue 186/187 (can't quite remember now which issue it was...). Since it was imbedded in the often less than enticing text-only section of the narrative I'd imagine that a significant number of people who bought cerebus would probably have skiped over it in favour of the more exciting and long awaited confrontation between Cirin, Cerebus, Astoria and Suteneus Po, at least initially. I know I certainly did. I'd also be interested to know how many people who vocally decry Sim's mysogyny have read the relevant section of 'Reads', as opposed to having read a copy of Sim's essay Tangent on the web...
 
 
■
21:41 / 19.12.05
That's actually a very good analogy.
Yes, he's clearly round the bend, and the misogyny doesn't go away just because the screeds aren't in the books (the whole JHWH v God thing is pretty much a whole book). However, they are astonishingly beautiful in places, and there has never been anyone who could do comics lettering like him.
I know this is, to many, rather like saying "yeah, but look at the style of Mein Kampf*", but I think it's a valuable read just to try and fathom what the hell he's on about, even if it's just to know your enemy. Kind of like why people still study Riefenstahl and Eisenstein and Wodehouse and Bernard Shaw and... well, you get the idea.


* thinking which still turns a tidy profit for Hugo Boss.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
22:44 / 19.12.05
But it was published with the comic and it is at the point where his apparent nervous breakdown becomes a lot more interesting than what is going on in the comic itself. Its also a very large psychological window into the stories that come after.

I never suggested that somebody shouldn't buy Cerebus because of his misogyny, or that a person can't enjoy a story if he doesn't agree with the person's politics and world views. My post was a response to discussions of Sim's misogyny already going on in the thread. You are absolutely right when you talk about the art in Cerebus. It just gets better and better as the series goes. The lettering is incredible too. Artistically its one of the best comics ever made, but even while that is true, and as much as wish it was otherwise, Dave Sim's intense hatred of women is still a very huge part of his work. It can't be seperated from it. Cerebus becomes the head of a church who's cheif doctrine is that women are, "angels, or devils, or vipers, or scorpions," or something close to that. You can't just insist that that aspect of it be ignored.

I'm assuming that the later issues will be a lot less boring when read in graphic novel form, but reading them in single issue form everything after Guys was unreadably dull about fifty percent of the time. There were a lot of fantastic, really funny issues, but there were boring ones too, and I'm sure I would have dropped that series long before the end if not for the continual mental breakdown he was having in his personal essays and letters pages.

If Dave Sim thinks he can write the kind of intense madness he writes with out anybody discussing how those views effected the story, he's nuts. Cerebus is great pretty much all the way through, except for a few crap and disturbing bits towards the end, but I don't recommend it to people just because its a good comic. I recommend it because its its a comic that in the thirty years it took to make evolved from being a Conan parody, to probably the greatest piece of graphic literature ever made, to an expression of the prolonged mental breakdown of the author who was entirely consumed by the work, pretty much making it one of the greatest pieces of art to come out of the twentieth century.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
22:46 / 19.12.05
That post was meant as a response to Benjamin's post and not the two that came after it.
 
 
Horatio Hellpop
04:39 / 20.12.05
i think sim's changing views on women are definitely part of the work, especially with regard to his treatment of jaka. earlier in cerebus, (pre-200) he seems to have a lot of sympathy for her, even while illustrating her life of privilege in jaka's story; later she's basically a vehicle for sim's illustrating why women are bad, nagging, and unnecessary. i liked her better before.
 
 
Spaniel
12:07 / 20.12.05
Actually, I'd like to apologise for bringing the misogyny question into yet another Sim thread.
 
 
Horatio Hellpop
15:04 / 20.12.05
i think the cerebus narrative starts to go downhill after 181 (the introduction of the viktor davis "character") not because of the misogyny but because sim decided his views were not actually best expressed in the story itself. viktor davis was a complete break with the character occupying the previous text sections of "reads" and, although part of the humour in cerebus had always been bringing in elements from outside of the in-story continuity (conan, elric, swamp/man-thing, chris claremont, the roach's various incarnations, mick jagger & keith richards, etc.) this is really the first time that we're meant to take sim's writing (not drawing) as the story itself. this trend continues through the climactic issue 200, where cerebus meets "dave" himself. i guess some people may see this as a clever moment of meta-textual transcendence, but during "mothers & daughters" so many plot strands from the previous 150 issues that it picked up and woven together that it seemed less like the appropriate conclusion to the narrative and more like sim had lost the thread. why did he need to assert himself to his characters? post-200, the conceptual amusement of cerebus sitting around in a bar doesn't extend to the actual experience of reading it (although there are, as someone above noted, many good issues, say 50%). to be fair, cerebus also sat around during jaka's story and melmoth, but not AS the narrative. unquestionably sim is a master of the comics form, but as a writer i found the most enjoyable parts of "guys" to be where he engages the larger world of the narrative, the political changes. the narrative has never been driven by cerebus' internal life (cerebus mostly acting as a kind of focal point for the events) and it suffers from the fact that it isn't driven anywhere in "guys" either as cerebus (predominantly) stews in his own juices for 19 issues. "rick's story" is a one-joke concept and not that funny. sim the writer is just...not as clever as he thinks he is. the cleverness that he attempts cannot sustain the slight narrative, without the actual character exploration/development of the earlier stories (like "jaka's story" which actually had a story to tell, two stories even!). the fitzgerald and hemingway storylines both have their moments (and are certainly well worth having) but feel a little like sim had run out of things to say (even as his socio-politico-religious views become more explicit) and nevertheless kept going just to keep his word. (to argue against myself, it may just be that i don't have any interest in the things that he is saying). it may also be that as his socio-politico-religious views had crystallized, the vantage point from which his humour/satire comes is not funny because of its harshness. i have all the issues (individual issues, not collections, hunted down with great love and obsession) from 15-279 but i still haven't read the end. i will, soon, i think, but with great trepidation.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
20:11 / 20.12.05
Not to flog myself, but I did a piece on CEREBUS when it ended for the Village Voice. You can read it here:

http://www.villagevoice.com/books/0413,hendrix,52244,10.html

Funnily enough, I had a fax exchange with Dave Sim during the writing of this article and what I really wanted to publish was the article with blow-by-blow commentary by Sim inserted parenthetically. He thought it was a fun idea and agreed to participate. The Voice was not amused when I turned that in and so the more traditional article that you see on that link is what ran. Sim was not amused and let me know so, via fax.

In case anyone's interested, here's the original article with Sim's comments in brackets (they were supposed to be in bold but I don't know how to do that here:


CEREBUS 1977-2004
published by Aardvark Vanaheim Inc.
Dave Sim's Cerebus, is the longest-running, self-published comic book ever. Over its 25 years, Sim has found God, and has become a pariah in the field for his views. He also believes that the world is controlled by the Marxist-feminist axis. We asked him to respond to this article about Cerebus, which ended its run this March. He also took the time to correct our grammar. As Sim says, “Given that feminism continues its steady march to universal hegemony, I see it as a first priority of the free-minded to adhere to the rules of spelling and grammar which they first learned…” so that was nice of him. Sim's comments are in brackets.

One of the most ambitious literary projects of the last 25 years came to an end this March and you probably don't even know its name: Cerebus. It's a comic book about a talking aardvark, whose creator seems to have slowly gone insane somewhere over the course of its 6000 pages. [[Sim laughs] I'll agree that it's an either/or proposition - either feminists are clinically insane or anti-feminists are clinically insane.] But it is, ultimately, something of a masterpiece. [“Something of a masterpiece.” Reminds me of Ringo saying he'd like to end up “sort of unforgettable.” Hope it works out for me as well as it did for him.]

In 1977, creator Dave Sim made the improbable announcement that his comic book, Cerebus, would run for 300 issues and that he would write, draw, and publish it himself. [Off by two years. Cerebus started in 1977 but it was in 1979 that I set the 300-issue goal. And, at that time, my then wife - now ex-wife - Deni was the publisher.] All of the comic books which have previously reached 300 issues (Batman, Superman, Spider-man) have been corporate franchises produced over decades by literally dozens of writers, pencillers and inkers; no one has ever self-published more than a few dozen issues, especially not while writing and drawing every issue themselves. The book's dizzying whirl of high concepts, low humor, narrative gusto, and exquisite draftsmanship attracted critical praise and a devoted following almost from the start. [Actually I would categorize that as a feminist revisionism: the book has been pretty much ignored from day one except for the occasional piece in Rolling Stone, the Atlantic Monthly, and the Village Voice way back in the 1980's - I'll appeal directly to the reader: have you ever heard of Cerebus?]. Initially a parody of Conan the Barbarian-style fantasy kitsch, Cerebus soon mutated into one of the more complex works of modern fiction. Powered by Sim's fascination with how the world actually works - his election satire, “High Society” is the last word on political skullduggery - the book saw its one-dimensional stock characters rapidly mature into complicated examples of flawed humanity.

Cerebus the Aardvark became Prime Minister in a rigged election; wrote his memoirs; got married; became a hateful Pope in an attack on organized religion; sat catatonic for hundreds of pages; fought the law; and traveled through the solar system (all the way out to Pluto). Kept in print as 16 “phone book sized” graphic novels, the series juggled multiple plotlines, interwove real-life and fictional figures (Oscar Wilde and Keith Richards rubbed elbows with Cerebus and Co.), and became a high water mark for serialization as an art form. But the book's scope (300 issues, dead or alive) was both its greatest strength and its greatest liability.

At the conclusion of issue #200, Cerebus ended his traumatic encounter with a fascist matriarchy in a schizophrenic tour de force as he and Dave Sim fell out (“Why are you such an unappealing character?” “Why do you write me that way?”). [I'd maintain that “fascist matriarchy” is redundant.] In a perfect ending, the two took a postmodern parting of ways, leaving a broken Cerebus face down in the slowly settling dust. [Has anyone ever come up with an actual definition for the term “postmodern” yet? Or are we still just using it as a “kissing to be clever” placeholder in feminist sentences? Actually I “came back” and “got” Cerebus at the end of “Mothers & Daughters”, after leaving him to stew in his own juices on Pluto for a while. I'm not that sadistic. And he did explicitly ask me to “leave him alone”.]

In the course of “Mothers & Daughters” - both in the book itself and in the editorial pages - Sim made it clear that he believes that we live in a feminist totalitarian state and readers left in droves. The last two thousand pages have been driven by its creator's deeply personal preoccupations (“Latter Days”, the penultimate storyline, devoted one hundred and forty-four pages to commentaries on the first thirty-eight chapters of the Book of Genesis), and his religious faith (a homemade blend of fundamentalist Christianity, Islam, and Judaism). [In the sense that my faith is scripture-based, I would agree with that. “Homemade” is at least an improvement on “cobbled together” which is what I got in the last feminist publication.] Sim found his religion while writing Cerebus, and his uncompromising beliefs have become a whip driving his readers away, and his fictional creations down convoluted passages intended to make theological points. Vexingly, the last hundred issues have also seen Sim and his collaborator (the mysterious Gerhard, who does the backgrounds) hone their visual technique to unparalleled expressive heights. With its dense layers of lettering, literary allusion, and internal logic, one page of Cerebus requires -- and rewards -- migraine-inducing concentration. [That sounds pretty rewarding. Makes it worth putting those layers in.]

Cerebus is a comic book through and through, but its complexity, ambiguity and sophistication alienate it from the comic book market. In a novel, Sim's third act exploration of his religious faith would have been a strength, but in a comic book it was a buzz kill. And so the end of Cerebus came not with a cover story in the New York Review of Books, but with a gentle clack as Sim and Gerhard laid down their pencils, and with a quiet rustle as its dwindling, devoted readership closed the last pages of the last issue of this confounding epic masterpiece. [A cover story in the New York Review of Books? C'mon, feminism doesn't work like that. You don't ignore a creative work for twenty-six years and then put it on the cover of the New York Review of Books. That would cause serious FWT: Feminist Whiplash Trauma. Let's start with the Voice and, you know, work our way up, eh?]
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
20:55 / 20.12.05
[That sounds pretty rewarding. Makes it worth putting those layers in.]

That's my favorite part.

For the record, I'd also be interested in hearing what Reads Readers have to say about that book and its "derailing" of the storyline. In my estimation, the Emotion v. Reason debate that say 90% of it focuses on is one of the lynchpins of the entire novel, and before it gets mucked up with gender politics, I find an enormous amount of it to be spot on.

Oh, and

You can't just insist that that aspect of it be ignored.

Of course not, but those examples you pointed out are the actions of a misanthropic tosspot who I doubt has ever been agreed with by any readers of his exploits. That's an enormous chunk of Cerebus: straight-up loathing its main protagonist.

There were a lot of fantastic, really funny issues, but there were boring ones too, and I'm sure I would have dropped that series long before the end if not for the continual mental breakdown he was having in his personal essays and letters pages.

As much as I felt compelled to, I could never make it very far through the back of the comics. To this day I've still never read Tangents or any of his other essays. I stuck with the Director's Commentaries and that was pretty much it. For the sake of full disclosure, I've also never made it all the way through the "Cerebexegesis" as some have dubbed the Bible Commentaries, but what I did get through was never as boring to me as some of his drier political screeds.

I recommend it because its its a comic that in the thirty years it took to make evolved from being a Conan parody, to probably the greatest piece of graphic literature ever made, to an expression of the prolonged mental breakdown of the author who was entirely consumed by the work, pretty much making it one of the greatest pieces of art to come out of the twentieth century.

I guess I'm just compelled to avoid the Car Crash scenario of recommendation, which to me is not unlike the "Oh man, this tastes like shit, you've got to try it" method of culinary recommendation. It's not what you're saying, I know, but I just don't buy into the Complete Mental Breakdown At The End. Even a cursory glancing over of the Stooges Eulogy sequence would appear to refute that argument. Your argument would, in my mind, color all the final books with the same brush, whereas I just don't see how isolated pockets of the book have such an overreaching impact. Latter Days is not a non-stop massacre of Left-Minded Feminists. That's just one of Cerebus' many many many stupidly violent ideas (the trend of which started wayyyy back in Church & State when he kicked a newborn baby off of a roof). Most of it is a rather poignant examination of what happens when you live way way way way way longer than every single person you've ever known or cared about.
 
 
Horatio Hellpop
21:42 / 20.12.05
it's not the exploration of religious faith that's the problem, per se; it's more the way in which it's presented.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
03:17 / 21.12.05
After MOTHERS AND DAUGHTERS I felt like the art on Cerebus got better and better but the story telling got more and more internal and, at least for me, boring. I don't think that Sim had a mental breakdown, but I do think that he let expressing his personal beliefs get in the way of telling the story. So much of it got so incomprehensible to me that I lost interest.

I do think that wherever Sim's mind was (crazy land?) it did result in him exposing himself in print more nakedly than a lot of artists and writers who adopt a persona when dealing with the public - their art showing the world what they want them to see. Whereas I felt that with Sim we got to see him as he is and that was pretty interesting.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
04:32 / 21.12.05
Actually, I'd like to apologise for bringing the misogyny question into yet another Sim thread.

I'd say it's kind of impossible not to... it's like Moore and magick, or TS Eliot and anti-Semitism... Sim's worldview IS what informs his writing, and to try to talk about one and ignore the other is at best pointless, at worst stupid. As long as that's not ALL we're talking about, I see no problem.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:46 / 21.12.05
Can someone give me a potted 'mental history of Dave Sim' please? One source placed his breakdown before he started on Cerebus, another placed it during the 80s. Was it an actual schizophrenic break? We probably need Ganesh for this but is Cerebus the story of someone losing the ability to create and process metaphor, and that's why a lot of people who could adopt a 'live and let live' approach to Sim's personal views just found the last 100 issues dull?
 
 
sleazenation
08:42 / 21.12.05
There are a lot of things I would say about reading Cerebus, one of which is that it is less of a unified 300 issue story as it is a 200 issue story with a 100 issue coda and even that is a bit of an oversimplification...

Another thing I'd say is that focus of the narrative changes substantially not just within this 200/100 grouping of issues, but from arc to arc.

Thirdly its important to remember that Cerebus is NOT the hero. He's occasionally a focus of the narrative, but ultimately he too is just passing through his world...
 
 
Spaniel
09:20 / 21.12.05
Sim's worldview IS what informs his writing, and to try to talk about one and ignore the other is at best pointless, at worst stupid. As long as that's not ALL we're talking about, I see no problem.

It's more the snidey way I did it.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:03 / 22.12.05
I'm goign to jump back a bit get away from the discussion as is and go back to the question at the beginning of the discussion:

Yes, the first 10 pages or so are pretty darn bad by today's standards. They were a ham-fisted parody of what was hot in comics in the 70's, and as such, they haven't aged well. But, as Sin drew each issue, he grew as an artist to the point where I think he was one of the masters of the FORM of comics. He was able to blend art with narrative (down to how he did word balloons) in a way that is pretty hard to find fault with. I'd even hold that Chruch and State is one of the 10 great works in comics, and Jaka's Story is about as close to perfect as I have seen in comics.

The problem with the book As A Comic is that along the way, Sim quit being an artist who wrote and became a novelist who drew, then as essayist who drew. As hard as I try, I just can't force myself through the issues from around 225 - 280, and have decided that Sim just didn't want to do comics anymore.

The Final Day shows that he STILL can do great comics, and it's too bad that such a big chunk of Cerebus is done in a prose style that just doesn't appeal to me.

More than the comic, however, was Sim's ability to be the first person to do a comic without having to rely on a company to make a living. Sim was the first guy who did it all: The Pinis had other companies do their collections and farmed out their characters to hired hands after a few years. Jack Katz dropped off the face fo the Earth when he finished First Kingdom, and can't even seem to get the reprints outto market now. Sim published the first reprints of his work, invent the "big thick trade paperback" that so many comic companies make their profits on and showed you CAN do self-publishing in comics (although he seems to be one of the very few who can).

So, for those who don't want to trudge through the bad stuff, just pikc up High Society (which is the best Marx Brothers movie not involving the real Marx Brothers), Church and State; and Jaka's Story. Then just walk away.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:51 / 22.12.05
Then just walk away.

But don't forget to pick up Going Home and Form & Void!
 
 
Krug
20:17 / 22.12.05
Ben your posts have convinced me to give the series a chance, I'll go get Church and State soon.
 
  

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