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Cerebus

 
  

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Ellis
20:33 / 02.07.01
What do you all think of Cerebus?

I bought the first book last week and and very underwhelmed (Womanthing, Sump Thing, Charles X. Claremont...) and the art in the first couple of hundred pages is abysmal...

It gets better I assume... doesn't it?

Should I buy High Society or not bother, is the first book an indication of what the rest of the series is like?

Also: Does Sim's views make the later books unreadable, or do u think it makes them more interesting?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
22:21 / 02.07.01
I would have started with High Society myself. The first book is very in-jokey of stuff from almost 25 years ago and doesn't hold up very well.

Then I would stop before getting to Reads, since by that point, Dave Sim had lived alone so long he no longer was in touch with our shared reality.
 
 
ThomasMunkholt
22:26 / 02.07.01
I think it's something of a heartbreak. 'High Society' though is great and where things really picked up for Sim - you should definately give it a try. 'Church & State I & II' is more of the same, plus Gerhardt comes on board. It is great satire, but at the same time it does herald Sim's rather disjointed storytelling. 'Jaka's Story' is where I came in, and I still think this is Cerebus at its best. 'Melmoth' ... sort of pretentious, but I like it nevertheless. The four Women-books were reaaally triring, though. 'Guys' - entertaining. 'Rick's Story' - same, but going nowhere ... and I just haven't been able to find the motivation to cough up the money for the last two books.

There are parts of Cerebus that I just love like nothing else, but in other parts I just feel like putting a bullet in my head. *shrug* Like I said, heartbreak - I really want to love it, but it just doesn't touch me the way it used to.

Sim's views ... certainly not worth all the controversy.
 
 
Cochese
22:26 / 02.07.01
Cerebus is sodding amazing, controversy or no controversy, and anyway, *they're just his views* you don't have to believe them. And by and large he hasn't let them get in the way of the story or individual characterisations. Whatever.
That first book can be quite offputting to potentioal new converts as the art is kinda shitty, but one of the pleasures for me is watching the art develop in technique and skill over the years.
Melmoth, true, is...an aquired taste, shall we say, and Reads is quite hard going, but there are enough brilliant moments through the series for it to be utterly worthwhile.
The one after Ricks Story, Going Home, is very good, very good indeed, though the new one, Form and Void, suffers rather from too much Ernest Hemingway and not enough Aardvark.
 
 
Ellis
11:04 / 03.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Cochese:

Form and Void, suffers rather from too much Ernest Hemingway and not enough Aardvark.


Too much Hemingway? What do you mean squire?
 
 
mondo a-go-go
11:31 / 03.07.01
i have just borrowed the first 4 books from sleazenation. i actually enjoyed the first one -- sure, it's dated and it's daft, but it was fun. high society was pretty good, though i'm not sure i would've understood everything that was going on with the politics if i hadn't at least read the latter stories in book one -- lord julius etc.

i've just finished the second part of church and state and some of it left me confused, though i suspect latter books will clear this up -- the switching of perspectives during the trial etc.

so far, i haven't really had a problem with any mysogny. the main character is a sexist git but characters like astoria and the watcher show another side.

i've enjoyed the comic spoofs -- all the marvel stuff (claremont/thor etc) and even british cartoonist giles! heh.

but i'm still totally unsure why the main character is an anthropomorhised animal, having human relationships. err...bestiality, anyone?

still, looking forward to finding out what happens next...
 
 
invisible_al
14:54 / 03.07.01
I liked Cerebus all the way up to the end of Jaka's story, Melmoth is a tad grim for my liking and I've only read it once. Actually its VERY grim, like Mocca said 'bullet in the head time'.

Flight and Minds I quite liked because of Gerhards artwork, hey I'm a sucker for space landscapes and people telling Cerebus he's a bit of a idiot.

But yeah stop before reads, and if you just want the best get High Society and both Church and State volumes.

Its a real pity he created this 'women are evillll' grand overaching conspiracy theory. It doesn't come across in the actual comics until I'd say women/guys/ricks story but you get it in the letters page at lot earlier but I managed to ignore it.

But I'd still be interested to see how it ends, I might pick it back up again in 2003.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
16:26 / 03.07.01
Dave Sim Misogyny Page.
 
 
Jamieon
10:14 / 04.07.01
So, could somebody actually tell me where the link to the "tangents" essay actually took me. Was I looking at the "script" of Cerebrus 186? was it an essay for the 'comics Journal'?

What was that?
 
 
Cochese
12:43 / 04.07.01
the tangent thing was just a big old rant he published in one of the more recent comics (in the 260s if memory serves) which he kindly made public domain so it could be reprinted anywhere. Haven't bothered reading it yet as the notes in the back of form and void just about killed me.
And, mmm, I still say you'd be missing out if you didn't read beyond Reads. Whatever else you think you can't deny that for most of the time he is very funny and a good observer of human nature.
 
 
Jamieon
16:56 / 04.07.01
So that "Victor Davies is not Dave Sim" argument, which was fucking weak in the first place, buckles and collapses completely.

The guy IS a total bigot.
 
 
Pin
22:35 / 06.07.01
So... what's it about? And how come's Amazon's only got one book on there? Any good?
 
 
Rev. Jesse
04:44 / 10.07.01
Hey there,

So regardless of the storylines and plots of the phonebooks (which I find vary widely), I really really dig Dave's lettering ability, esp. latter on.

The oral sex in Form and Void for example. Amazing.

-Rev. Jesse
 
 
Ellis
13:26 / 20.07.01
I have just read High Society, it is a much better story than the previous book and I am getting the next one Church and State tomorrow.

The scene where Cerebus slaps Jaka seems to be more important now in light of Sims views...
 
 
Templar
20:53 / 22.07.01
There are days where the last few Cerebus books are incredibly intelligent, thoughtful and generally fantastic.
Then again, there are days when it sounds like so much self-indulged pseudo-intellectual sh*te.
High Society was funny and acurate satire. Wicked.
Still, only one more volume to go. Recon he'll ever produce anything better? Maybe, unshackled from the corpse of the Aardvark, he find something new. Then again...
 
 
Ellis
09:01 / 23.07.01
I wonder when Sim realised what he was doing.

Do you think he had some kind of Series-Bible or made it up when he went along?
 
 
Templar
09:41 / 23.07.01
It must have just come together slowly. By about issue #100 I reckon most of it had solidified in his mind. At least, it was around there that the style became pretty standardised, and the larger narratives came in.

Hasn't he just started publishing the last 25 issues? Anyone read any?
 
 
Ellis
12:57 / 25.07.01
Do you think Cerebus would be as good/ popular/ original if the main character was a human and not an Aardvark?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
17:07 / 25.07.01
Today, the answer to that is an unqualified "yes". Back when Cerebus started, in the late seventies, I don't think anybody would have given the book a second look if it didn't star a funny animal.
 
 
sleazenation
19:01 / 25.07.01
cerebus is an indie comic that will last 300 issues. how many other indies can say that.

Cerebus is a unique publishing venture. It would remain a unique publishing venture no matter what its subject matter
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:02 / 09.04.05
So I've read to the end of 'Church and State 2' it's all right, though I was severely wrong-footed with all that talk at the end of volume 1/beginning of 2 of the Pope's job being to ascend to heaven, I thought this was a metaphor, I didn't realise they meant, non, he actually will ascend to heaven and... do stuff. I don't think I understood the why's of that part actually. Can anyone help me out on the role of the Pope in religion there?

Mick and Keef are excellent though. Much more fun than the bloody Roach and Albino...
 
 
sleazenation
22:35 / 09.04.05
You weren't the only one who was wrong-footed by then ending of C&SII - apparently there was quite a dumbstruck response to the ending when it was originally published.

The specific role of cerebus as the pope is kind of revisited later on as Sim's religious views change...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:54 / 10.04.05
But, as of Church and State, what does the Pope do? He's both a Pope as we have a Pope in Rome, but he also has to go on a quest? Do all Pope's do this or just certain ones? How do we know which are the important Popes? With both 'High Society' and 'Church and State' I feel like I'm reading a story that has had expositional chapters removed...
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:43 / 10.04.05
The Pope is more of an Emperor type figure in Estarcion who just so happens in this instance to wind up on the moon. I don't think any kind of ascension is expected or guaranteed for everyone who holds the position. It's just sort of implied, in the same way that, I'd imagine, Earth's Pope would be expected to play some kind of important role if the apocalypse actually took place. In Estarcion, Cerebus' Ascension takes on just that kind of weight, as you'll see in later storylines. The ascension, combined with his short but incredibly wrathful reign as Pope, turns him into a legendary figure among the populace.

The gag of it is that he ascends, gets the meaning of life, but he's a bit too bored and uninterested to really get it. Presumably, the point of ascension is to get the meaning of life and deliver it to the people. Run, do not walk, and pick up Cerebus #0 to see how Cerebus handles this new responsibility, and how it turns out for him. Brilliant stuff.
 
 
sleazenation
22:14 / 10.04.05
Yeah, cerebus 0 reprints the epilogues for both High Society and Church and State, and another tale. The C&S epilogue is good.

As for how the Papacy works in Estarcion, I don't remember it being fully explored. Certainly High Society points to the Eastern Churchas being a temporal Papacy, with the pontiff ruling Iest as a king would (or rather as the Pope ruled over the Papal states in our world).

With the exodous inwards the Eastern pontiff sealed himself away from Iestian society leaving a legislature to operate the business of governance in his name, just as the British government operates the business of governance in the name of the Queen.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
12:09 / 14.04.05
Ok, so, yes, the Dave Sim is insane. That having been said, I think that in the latter episodes (Form and Void and beyond), the book demonstrates that he is one of the most skilled comic creators with us. His panels flow together wonderfully, the end of the page actually makes you want to turn the page, and not just out of some sense of comic reader duty, and I am particularly impressed by his lettering in Form & Void and later works. Most wonderfully, his art work (in conjunction w/ Gerhard's wonderful backgrounds) seems to pop out of the page. No other black and white books seems to be able to come up with the same sense of depth.

Of course, this only applies when there are pictures. There is a lot of meaningless dribble in Cerebus where no pictures appear for miles and miles.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:15 / 14.04.05
No doubt. Those last books contain some of the most accomplished feats of storytelling in the history of the whole dang medium. And yeah, at that point, his lettering prowess alone is unparalled.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:32 / 14.04.05
isn't there already a thread on this? (I mean, a separate thread, called something like Dave Sim's Cerebus, I think?)
 
 
sleazenation
18:16 / 14.04.05
Check the date for the first post finder - this IS the old thread...
 
 
PatrickMM
01:55 / 17.12.05
News on Dave Sim's New Comics Project If you were worrying about Dave softening his views in his old age, check out the description below:

"Gun Fu: Showgirls Are Forever #1 will be released in March 2006 and is published by Image Comics. The story is set in 1941. France has succeeded in setting the world record for the quickest surrender to Nazi Germany without putting up a fight. Nazi-collaborating French showgirls are on a secret mission to attack a neutral United States. Cheng Bo Sen is a Hong Kong cop and British secret agent. He also speaks hip-hop which no one seems to notice."
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
02:45 / 17.12.05
I think he's just writing some dialogue with this guy. He did a pin-up for him in the Pre-300 days. It's not really a new creative initiative for him, as far as I can tell.
 
 
eye landed
04:36 / 17.12.05
i somehow liked #1 enough to buy #2.

im slowly working my way through, waiting for the new issue on special order each time. #3 is on its way, sigh. some stores here sell the higher issues, but i guess 1-4 actually get bought by other people.

#2 was great. sim uses the visual-spatial potential of comics like nobody else ive seen. cant wait to see what gerhardt can add. the cover of #2 was done by gerhardt, i think, and looks good.

i associate cerebus with the egyptian god set, and as a phallic/shadow symbol-- sword, snout, no pants, short stature.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:25 / 17.12.05
Just finished Jaka's Story, which I enjoyed, but which probably would have driven me as insane as Sim if I'd been trying to read it in individual chapters. So the Cirinists have taken over the state, but Lord Julius is still in power? Or has he managed to get them so confused that he's able to continue ruling while they try and figure out what's going on? I'm wondering why he turned up in drag halfway through but it seems he wasn't visiting Jaka, so did he send the Cirinists to get her back for him?

The final scene with Mrs Thatcher revealing to Rick what Jaka did is really well done, although at the moment I'm not quite sure why Jaka did it, if indeed she did. When does the Dave Sim misogyny train really leave the station?
 
 
Kirk Ultra
22:29 / 17.12.05
SPOILER WARNING


People ususally mark issue 187 as the point where the mysogny kicks in. I think its an issue of Reads. But really its a pretty casual, easy to ignore mysogny in comparrison to about 60 issues or so later when he published his crazy Tangents essay. It's right at that point where the author's madness becomes more interesting than the story, but even then it was a while before the really offensive stuff got into the comic itself, instead of just the letter collums.

Its not till fairly close to the end of the series that the hard misogyny makes it into the story. For a long time in my mind I was imagining evil Dave Sim writing the letter columns and essays, while the good Dave Sim (disguised so the evil Dave can't find him) struggled to say something through the stories.

There's an interview with Sim (I think its in an issue of Following Cerebus) where he discusses the scene in Cerebus where Cerebus and Jaka split for the last time after the long journey to Cerebus's childhood home. It was the end of Going Home. When I first read those issues, I read the scene as Cerebus telling Jaka to leave because Cerebus knows that even though she loves him enough to be with forever, she would end up being forced to be a house slave/wife in that traditional women-have-no-rights-or-brains little town. He knows it won't work in a way where they'd both be happy and so he ends it, sending her away to be free.

It really read that way to me. Reading that Dave Sim interview in following Cerebus though, I was surprised to find that his interpretation was the exact opposite. Sim said that Cerebus sent her away because Jaka was such a terrible person that she would have ruined things for Cerebus and his noble women-have-no-rights-or-brains family by trying to be independent or think for herself not do slave chores all day. He basically said any thing to get you to car about Jaka was a trick on his part to fool the stupid readers.

And that's where my evil Dave Sim/good Dave Sim theory comes from. When I went back and looked at those pages again though, the first reading I had still read like the right one. It was like the last bit of Love inside Dave Sim struggling to communicate to the world while the Misogynyst Madness closed in on him.

After Going Home Cerebus becomes the leader (pope again? I forget) of the huge Rick-insipired Church and sends his armies around taking over cities and getting people to vote on which women from their hometown's to kill (and surprise surprise, it only takes a little bit of convincing to get all the men to realise those women deserve death), so by this time the misogyny pedal is all the way to the metal.

I would still recommend reading the series to the end though. I still haven't given it a complete read myself, there was a lot I couldn't be bothered reading in single issue form, but there's still a lot of innovative stuff in there, and the last issue (REGENCY ELF!!!) really brings the series home for you.
 
 
sleazenation
08:12 / 18.12.05
Not sure where you got the cerebus setting Jaka free reading from - I figured it was pretty clear that Cerebus was blaming Jaka (no matter how unreasonably) for him not being in Sandhills Creak before his parents died...
 
  

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