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'Classics are books that everyone praises and noone reads'

 
  

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The Return Of Rothkoid
14:21 / 21.01.02
More on editions of Ulysses here. I've got the Penguin edition with the Liffey on the front of it - does fine by me. It's not a "student's" or "corrected" edition.

I think it's just been reissued by OUP reasonably cheaply, too.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:15 / 21.01.02
If you're reading Ulysses, there are some concordances out there, can't remember the one I used when I first read it, but although kind of tedious at times, I found it really helpful for filling in the huge gaps in my knowledge and getting pig-ignorant me to a point where I could really get into reading it wihtout getting too bogged-down in every little word(rather like having a bilingual dictionary to hand if you're starting to read novels in other languages)

and i'd rather be locked in a room with Ian Duncan-Smith than read Dickens ever again.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
15:27 / 21.01.02
A Key To Ulysses is a pretty good catch-all guide that's not as voluminous as some. I found that if you've got the schema and even - horror - a copy of Cliff's notes to read after you've chugged through the schema, you can get by. It really, though, is a book that needs re-reading to shine. An incredibly wanky thing to say, but I found that the second time around, I noticed a whole lot of stuff - similarities, synchronicities - that I hadn't picked up the first time around because I was too concerned with trying to figure out what the fuck was going on.

At the moment, Ulysses Annotated looks ok if you've got cash to spend. Amazon has sample pages available here.
 
 
Persephone
15:58 / 21.01.02
cool cool cool thanks everyone
 
 
Tempus
17:35 / 21.01.02
Anthony Burgess' Re Joyce is a personal favorite of mine, as well--always interesting to hear one genius discourse on another...
 
 
I, Libertine
15:51 / 24.01.02
I really thought Dubliners was the most engaging thing Joyce wrote, while Ulysses was the most accomplished at the task it set for itself.

I always get a little misty at the end of the story "Counterparts": "I'll say a Hail Mary for you, pa!"

Pynchon is Vaudeville Lit, and though parts of it were tedious, other parts of Gravity's Rainbow were alternately brilliant and fucking hilarious: "Fickt dir nicht mit der Raketemench!!!"
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:37 / 24.01.02
Can't stand Dickens, Stienbeck has some good stuff, I enjoyed The Sun Also Rises and Farewell to Arms, although I couldn't tell you why. I hated Murder in the Cathedral.

Honestly, Lothar, I can understand LOTR, but not liking Salinger? Were you one of those really well adjusted teenagers?
 
 
The Natural Way
11:27 / 25.01.02
I'm w/ Tom, 'Of Mice and Men' is a great, thoroughly moving, tale. And I'm 2/3 of the way through 'Cannery Row' and loving every minute of it: the story's warm, rich, busy, funny, sad.... What's all this "dry dustbowl" business? I admit, I haven't read any of his longer works ('Grapes of Wrath', 'East of Eden', etc.), but, based on the stuff I have read, I fully intend to.
 
 
I, Libertine
13:41 / 25.01.02
Mac and the Boys...great story.

"dry dustbowl": American west in the 1930s?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:55 / 25.01.02
Wrong idea, chum.

I was objecting to the idea that Steinbeck's writing is in any way possessed of a "dry dust bowl" like quality - that the prose is arid, deliberately boring, etc. That's just plain wrong, mateybubbles.
 
 
I, Libertine
14:11 / 25.01.02
Oops, missed it.

Sounds like hamartia to me, tho.
 
 
Fist Fun
17:47 / 25.01.02
Don't ya just love that title The sun also rises. I was a little obsessed with that at one point. I used to put it in the subject line to random e-mail messages. Puts everything in perspective. The sun also rises.
 
 
Hush
18:17 / 25.01.02
The purpose of Classic literature is to save tinme for important people, like teachers, assessors, lecturers, exam markers; like me.

Because of <classic literature> we can carry on with the same old cabbage we read when we were young without the bother of having new thoughts.

It's a great scheme.
 
 
Tempus
20:56 / 25.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Johnny the Zen bastard:

Honestly, Lothar, I can understand LOTR, but not liking Salinger? Were you one of those really well adjusted teenagers?


For what it's worth, I hated A Catcher in the Rye when I read it in school. I thought Holden was an idiot. Actually, I still do. I must be well-adjusted then, as you suggest. Horrors.
 
 
The Monkey
07:28 / 26.01.02
Enjoying Conrad really requires a sense of history of the time he was writing, espe The Secret Agent and Nostromo, and most of all Heart of Darkness:

Heart of Darkness wasn't intended as a psychological novel. It really was based on his trip down the Congo river. The novel was essential a gazette, slightly fictionalized, of the horrors of the Belgian Congo. A protest novel, in a sense.
The mystery of Kurtz, his division between promising company man and fiancee and inner-jungle slave-king and demigod, reflects the activities of real white men hired by the Belgian government to control rubber plantation and mining operations in the interior.
A lot of promising, ambitious young British men left university and sought their fortune in the Congo, leaving behind family and girlfriends. They were sent to the interior to regulate slave production of rubber, etc. Most became tyrants, some truly became outright monsters, on par with Ivan Grozny or the WWII concentration camp Kommandants...but when they completed their tour, they went home, married their sweethearts, and lived as respectable men.

Reading Conrad for basic university lit, I ran up against endless unsatisfactory analytical positions about Heart of Darkness.
Then I read a history called "King Leopold's Ghost" written by Adam Hoschchild (spelling something like that) which is all about the Belgian occupation of the Congo and the hideous slave-state they created.
There is a specific chapter dealing with Conrad and the invention of the fictional character Kurtz.
After "King Leopold's Ghost," the entirety of Heart of Darkness opened up to me...not as a piece of inner psychological delving, but as a journalistic account of colonial horrors, in specific of the moral facade of colonial activities and the ignorance (or willing blindnees?) of the folks at home....

I wonder, how many books leave us cold because we fail to see their relevance to the now, particularly because we don't wholly get where the writer was coming from...what was common knowledge to Conrad's London audience--politics, celebrities, short-term history, slang and idiom--is obscure to us.
As I said with Heart of Darkness, the whole book suddenly made sense once I chewed on a bit of history relevant to the time it was written.

But Dickens still craps out giant honking fairy tales...with Victorian morals, no less

The Archons opt for the "Left Behind" series, but I think that Salman Rushdie is one of the best prose writers In These Modern Times.

[ 26-01-2002: Message edited by: [infinite monkeys] ]
 
 
alas
14:10 / 27.01.02
i made a valiant effort at ulysses just a few months ago. an irish friend who absolutely loves the thing made such a beautiful impassioned case for the work, especially for the understanding of leo bloom, that although i was tempted to give up at 1/3 through, i pushed on to 2/3. i read various websites and supplements by people who masturbate to his masturbation scenes, and finally i gave up: i just couldn't care enough about anything happening in that work to keep on. I wanted to wake Joyce out of his grave and say: "ok. ok! you're very clever!!! now could you plase just get on with the story!!!!?"

but i suppose that's the wrong spirit to bring to the work. "bad infinity," was the phrase one of my profs used with him. Plus so many people who love Ulysses seem to use their understanding of his works as a way to prove that their penises are much longer than average...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
09:39 / 28.01.02
i think the key to understanding ulysseus is to read it out loud. especially the sirens chapter. (you don't tell thelonius monk to 'get on with the story').

another key is to remember that joyce was drunken ass-man who spent all his time in pubs asking his pals about the books they read rather than reading them himself. as a kid i always had this idea of joyce as a stodgy old intellectual type, but when i realized he was more the stinking slacker rock star, Ulysseus all made a lot more sense. anyway, that whole "yes I said yes I will Yes " part is kinda like experimental porn, innit?

(edited to remove charming but ridiculous "pups" typo)

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Mystery Gypt ]
 
 
Cavatina
09:39 / 28.01.02
Posted by [Infinite Monkeys]:

"I wonder, how many books leave us cold because we fail to see their relevance to the now, particularly because we don't wholly get where the writer was coming from...what was common knowledge to Conrad's London audience--politics, celebrities, short-term history, slang and idiom--is obscure to us.
As I said with Heart of Darkness, the whole book suddenly made sense once I chewed on a bit of history relevant to the time it was written."

Infinite Monkeys, I very much agree with your comment about the value of situating novels - or any texts - in their socio-historical contexts. An examination of the discursive environment in which a novel was produced (including those by Dickens) can so often lead to exciting insights.

Like you, I also think that reading Heart of Darkness as a critique of Western colonialism and 'civilization' is the most interesting interpretation - and this doesn't exclude the elements self-discovery, or autobiography. Writing from his personal experience as captain of a river steamer in the Belgian Congo, Conrad stated in his Last Essays (1926) that Belgian colonialism was "the vilest scramble for loot that ever disfigured the history of human conscience".

[ 28-01-2002: Message edited by: Cavatina ]
 
 
The Natural Way
10:29 / 28.01.02
Thing is about 'Catcher...': I find it hard to dislike a book that makes me piss myself every other page. I just lurv all that "shooting the old bull..." business.
 
 
alas
22:58 / 28.01.02
mystery g--you're making me feel worse and worse for this inability to like joyce. the more i think about my 'ulysses problem,' the more i think you are right and i am wrong... (worse still, truth be told, especially if i'm tired, it's very hard to bring myself to listen to thelonius monk...) however, being a firm believer in discipline in the service of pleasure, your advice about seeing joyce as slacker and Rothkoid's idea of reading it in tandem as poetry, is gradually giving me some incentive to try it again, and maybe even to be a little more gentle on the obnoxious joyceans i knew in grad school. (any advice on learning to hear monk?)

i do really love *dubliners*, however. and virginia woolf. and MOBY-DICK ... and walt whitman. and emily dickinson... and yeats...
 
 
Persephone
01:02 / 29.01.02
O everybody read Ulysess with Rothkoid and me!

Hey-- do you think, possibly, that there's a way to *record* ourselves reading parts, taking turns that is? And somehow get the sound files online?? How *cool* would that be? Is that really hard to do?

[Nevermind if it's really hard. Don't want to set up any unnecessary hurdles.]

[ 29-01-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
06:58 / 29.01.02
Now *that* is an idea...

... might take up quite a lot of bandwidth somewhere, though. Rothkoid is probably the best person to ask, actually. Are you there...?

I think Ulysses might work as a 'post as you read' thingy, though.

Oh, yes, classics... I'm in the middle of Moby-Dick at the moment and, though I found it a little irritating at first, am now thoroughly engrossed (they have just killed the old whale which sinks).
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:04 / 29.01.02
Hmmmmm. This could be rather do-able. RealAudio will compress down nicely, and it's free to use the creator of it. Hmmm. Though I think we should ferret out which chapters to look at using audio specifically - there's some I could think of, but would need to be pretty selective, as it is big. Some of the more musical chapters would be great, though.

I do agree that it's more a "post as you read" book - will have to have a think as to how to structure it when the time comes...
 
 
alas
11:13 / 29.01.02
(i have to admit i keep picturing "joyce in pups" and it's very amusing--all those little puppies . . .)
 
 
Persephone
12:19 / 29.01.02
Would this be a separate project from the book club, then? Do you think it would hurt the book club? Should we start a Ulysses thread?

How do you record? Like, on your computer?

Of course someone would have to tell me how to pronounce "Dedalus" --and actually due to being overbalanced in favor of writing vs. talking, I have a distressingly long list of words I have no idea how to say.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:30 / 29.01.02
Oh, no, uh... book club, help. I was just thinking 'aloud' (now what's the online equivalent of that, I wonder?) that Ulysses might benefit from a 'Notes and Queries' style thread while people were reading it (in the event that we read it for the next book club - there have been a couple of other suggestions, I think). The online recording I would think of as a connected project. Is that what you meant?
 
 
Persephone
12:48 / 29.01.02
Of course I would love Ulys to be under the aegis of the book club, which is sort of an official entity. But apart from there already being a waiting list, I had the impression that the book club favors more easily accessible books (i.e., cheap editions, not too long, not too dense)?

So we could start a separate thread (and the recording project, as you say, would be attached); but then I worry about splitting focus. Because this would be the same sort of activity as the book club id est organized reading and discussion, versus just an off-the-cuff comment sort of thread.

S'funny, because my abbreviation in my planner for the Barbelith Book Club is BBC. So in effect this would be like a second channel...

BBC-1! BBC-2! Huh! Huh!
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:57 / 29.01.02
It's meant to operate by consensus; and since Ulysses is available (over here at least) at a reasonable price (about 7 pounds, which is pretty standard for a novel these days) or second-hand, I would think it would be OK if enough people wanted to do it... but point taken about complexity.

I would definitely draw the line at reading a book which was only available in hardback, though.
 
 
Persephone
15:44 / 29.01.02
Okay, I'm going over to the book club thread now.
 
  

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