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The Iliad - Notes and Queries.

 
  

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Persephone
11:39 / 15.01.02
Hello, I know it's early... but I'd like to be the first to say:

HOLY SHIT.

Will have a more considered response in two weeks.

[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
06:36 / 16.01.02
Shameful confession - I have discovered that I have about 4 translations of the Iliad and the original, but no Hammond - will buy it tonight.

But, proleptically, I second that HOLY SHIT. And if I mention Pylaimenes somebody kick me.
 
 
ephemerat
07:22 / 16.01.02
Hah. I was sure I had the Hammond translation and I bloody well don't, either. Isn't Rothkoid reading Fagles?

This could produce complications...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:44 / 16.01.02
No, Persephone has a copy of the Fagles.

It should be OK really; the only reason I wanted to name a translation was in order to avoid discussing the merits of various translations, rather than the Iliad itself.

Now let's stop talking about this. I haven't finished it yet.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
07:44 / 16.01.02
Could someone tell me why Hera is "ox-eyed" and what that means, though?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:44 / 16.01.02
Short answer: no.

It probably means that at some point the combination of numinal ideas which coalesced into the Homeric conception of the gods had a theriomorphic element - gods in the form of animals. One of the epithets that has carried this concept over is "ox-eyed", in the same way that Athena is "owl-eyed" (or grey-eyed, depending on your translation"). Hera used to be a cow, Athena used to be an owl. Except not.

As for how to read it - I generally think of it as being simultaneously a metaphor describing "human" characteristics (Hera's eyes are big and brown, Athene's eyes are sharp and unblinking), while at the same time carrying elements of the original cult animal. Gods are funny - neither one thing nor t'other.

But I imagine an expert would probably correct me.
 
 
deja_vroom
07:44 / 16.01.02
perhaps a reference to a flower?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
10:06 / 16.01.02
As I said, I believe an expert would probably correct me. I did not expect an expert on flowers so to do.
 
 
deja_vroom
10:17 / 16.01.02
Actually as I was posting my last post I missed your last post (not the last, you know which one. If I had read it beforehand I wouldn't have bothered to speculate further - your explanation makes more sense.

[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: Marquis de Jade ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
10:26 / 16.01.02
Ah, I'm just kiddin' around, Jade. I would guess that your ox-eyed flower is named after ox-eyed Hera, so it all ties together (Tann visibly stops himself from launching into the "absolutely everything in the world comes form Homer" peroration)
 
 
Sauron
11:55 / 16.01.02
quote:Originally posted by just todd:
Could someone tell me why Hera is "ox-eyed" and what that means, though?


Sorry to interject, I was just browsing ... from my recolection the Ox was thought to have very beautiful eyes (big, dewy and brown) in Greek Mythology - I rember one of Zeus lover's (not Hera)eyes being described as such- thus could it be a compliment along these lines?

[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: Laudanum ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:01 / 16.01.02
I am going to edit the title to this thread so that we can start a new one when we've all finished (beginning February - let me know if you want to kick off).
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:07 / 16.01.02
Given that this is a prep-thread, of sorts, would it be possible for someone to post some good resources that might give a bit more background than the Penguin's notes? Haus - any good sites you know of? My reading/study of the work is pretty rusty, and could use some mental WD-40...
 
 
Persephone
12:18 / 16.01.02
Sorry, Kit-Cat. Wanted to post what I was feeling while I was still smoking, as it were.

BTW I have the Hammond too, that's what I just read. It was hard to find, I don't know why... I had to go *all* over, thank God for Unabridged. Stupid Borders and Barnes & Noble.

I'll go read the Fagles now, that should keep me busy.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:55 / 16.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Laudanum:
[QB]Sorry to interject, I was just browsing ... from my recolection the Ox was thought to have very beautiful eyes (big, dewy and brown) in Greek Mythology - I rember one of Zeus lover's (not Hera)eyes being described as such- thus could it be a compliment along these lines?
[QB]


I think you're probably thinking of Io. Lover (or victim) of Zeus who was turned into a cow, and quite a comely one at that, and thus had...well, cow eyes.

"Cow eyes" is a phrase in English to describe big, dark, dewy eyes, o' course, although a comparatively rare one these days.

The epithet in Homer is a fairly involved topic, which will no doubt be touched on.

Rothkoid - good question. Most of my references are hardcopy - recommend as an easy in: Richard Jenkyns' "Classical Epic: Homer and Virgil", or Jasper Griffin, "Homer on Life and Death". Will try to think of some online resources.

[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Rain ]
 
 
deja_vroom
13:37 / 16.01.02
I've got the Samuel Butler's translation. Is it considered a good one, would you guys recommend it?
 
 
Sauron
14:31 / 16.01.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Rain:


I think you're probably thinking of Io. Lover (or victim) of Zeus who was turned into a cow, and quite a comely one at that, and thus had...well, cow eyes.


[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Rain ]


that's the one- apologies for confusion. apologies for being late, but what's going on here- seems v. interesting- are you reading through and then debating?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:36 / 16.01.02
Yeah - there's a sort of unofficial book club. We pick a book by general consensus, leave about a month or so for everyone to read it, then discuss it. Very ad hoc. The thread on the Iliad wasn't meant to start until February (we set a date so that people don't start chatting about a book while others are still reading it) - but in this case people are obviously so enthused that they had to SPEAK! Which is, of course, a Good Thing. Besides, I think it would be quite hard for anyone to post spoilers for the Iliad.

If you (or anyone else) are interested, the translation we're reading is by Martin Hammond, available in Pinguin Classics for a measly #3.50.

[/formal]
 
 
Sauron
14:39 / 16.01.02
Cool, thank you, would like to join in- will acquire said translation.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
15:07 / 16.01.02
Yay!
 
 
Sauron
15:56 / 16.01.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Rain:
Yay!


I can't imagine why my involvement would fill you with such extreme joy Boy Wonder, but anyway, Huggles back at ya(!)

[ 16-01-2002: Message edited by: Laudanum ]
 
 
MJ-12
16:19 / 16.01.02
I'll say it again -- Homer was the first gangsta rapper.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:47 / 16.01.02
A quick burst of Classics for those who aren't familiar with the background to epithets in epic poetry:

Basically - these are huge poems that appear to have been written down by someone at some point, but were originally told by travelling story-tellers, who would perform choice sections at social and religious occasions for the assembled populace (generally "noble").

The whole things were memorised, which in itself is pretty impressive - but perhaps MORE impressive is the fact that they were all in verse - each line contains a certain number of long and short syllables arranged in generally predictable forms. Greek long and short syllables being based upon the length (generally) of the vowel sounds, and whether or not they contained a consonant at each end. I'm a little rusty on this, so I won't go into too much detail, except to say that athena (for example) could be something like a short 'a', long 'then', short 'a'. Speak them out loud and you'll see how the middle block takes more time.

Anyway - the first and primary use of the epithet (aside from its adjectival function) is to fit into the rhythm. You see this particularly with the common gods - Athena is variously described throughout the epics as 'grey-eyed athene' or 'pallas athene' (amongst others).

Imagine a limerick

There once was a young man of Fife
Who was greatly disgusted with life
They sang him a ballad
And fed him on salad
Which cured that young man of Fife.

Ignoring for a moment the fact that the last line seems to me to be lacking one useful syllable, if you imagine that the phrase "young man" was replaced by the name of a god, then "of Fife" could be seen as the epithet which fits his name into the scheme. This is not a particularly good example, but it's my favourite limerick so hey...

Some of the names have clear cult origins - Pallas Athene for example was worshipped in various cults. You can think of it as being like appealling to the quality of the divinity you want to invoke if you will - for example the word "Nike" (as used on shoes) comes from the Greek for 'victory' - and there is a temple to Athena Nike on the Acropolis in Athens.

Because communication between areas in Ancient Greece wasn't particularly fast, local variations in religious practice emerged, and divinities sometimes had different names or attributes in different areas. As communication became greater, these cult groups often became absorbed by the 'greater' deity - Pallas, I believe, was a unique and individual character in some mythology, but gradually became absorbed within the figure of Athena. The gods were often associated with animals - Athena was frequently connected with Owls for example - and in fact an owl was on the coinage of Athens (which of course took its name from her). So some resonances will come from there as well.

Hope that's cleared some stuff up...
 
 
Tom Coates
17:48 / 16.01.02
I wouldn't recommend the Fagles translation - but I can't offhand remember the name of the one that is closest to the original greek...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
23:51 / 16.01.02
To clarify further:

The Iliad is written in dactylic hexameters. That is, each line contains six "feet", and each of these feet is naturally a dactyl (long syllable, followed by two short syllables - like a finger -"daktylos" has a long bit and two smaller bits divided by the knuckle. Just work with me on this one). IIRC, and I am tired and drunk, the fifth foot was almost always a dactyl and the sixth foot almost always a spondee (two long syllables). Since the lenght of syllables was affected by the letters at the beginning of the next word, and two vowels could be ruin together to form a long syllable or elided to form a short, this is more flexible than it sounds. The previous four feet could be dactylic or spondaic.

The role of the epithet as Tom describes it is reminiscent of researches on Yugoslavian verse epic, which is a useful if limited source. There is a school of thought which would add that the picture painted of the rhapsodic (rhapsode - a travelling performer of verse) origins of Homer described by Tom are based on an episode in the Odyssey rather than verifiable fact - Oliver Taplin wrote some quite interesting stuff on the possible arrangement of the Iliad over three days as a piece of continuous spoken drama - but that is currently irrelevant.

So, epithets had a certain function in completing metrical units, as shown by the limerick. To go back to the source, Achilles can be described as swift Achilles (okus Achilleus) or swift-footed Achilles (podarkus Achilleus), depending on how much of the line the description needs to take up.

The Yugoslavian thing comes back into relevance on the question of whether the epithet was a purely automatic function of verse composition (as it was in Yugoslac oral epic, which was notably shorter and more repetitive than the Iliad) or a careful construction of the desired sense in each case, or something in between. So, for example, is Agamemnon (IIRC) being described as stout-hearted even while he is behaving liek a King Kong Pussy an autonomy, an irony, or a sculptural reflection of how he should be seen, even if he did not show it all the time...
 
 
Opalfruit
06:24 / 17.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:
I wouldn't recommend the Fagles translation - but I can't offhand remember the name of the one that is closest to the original greek...


The translation I read (The Iliad and the Odyssey) was by Richmond Lattimore and was far easier to read than the Penguin one I read before that.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:13 / 17.01.02
Lattimore is indeed the one I was thinking about. VERY good one, and remarkably close to the greek.

And Haus is a show-off, but is completely right. Except that Oliver Taplin is really boring.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:22 / 17.01.02
Oliver Taplin is a lovely lovely hobbit. And more to the point, he's *my* lovely, lovely hobbit.

But probably not a necessity.
 
 
Sauron
07:25 / 17.01.02
So should we get Hammond or Lattimore?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:28 / 17.01.02
Oh, for crying out loud. I knew this would happen.

It doesn't really matter, Laudanum, just as long as all the bickering along the lines of 'my translation is better/closer to the Greek than yours' stays in this thread and not in the book club one.

I read the Hammond one and found it excellent, but then as I am not a classical scholar I wouldn't really know how it stands in comparison to the others.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:44 / 17.01.02
I actually don't think it matters what translation you get - in fact the converstaion is more likely to be about the 'Iliad' rather than the translation if you choose one that you like.
 
 
Sauron
07:48 / 17.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:
I actually don't think it matters what translation you get - in fact the converstaion is more likely to be about the 'Iliad' rather than the translation if you choose one that you like.


Yes, that may be an idea ... will get whichever one of the two recommended has the prettiest cover.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:06 / 17.01.02
I think whichever one you find that's cheap enough - and has gotten props in this thread - is the one to go with. I think we initially decided Hammond as it's currently in print in Penguin, cheap, and is deemed better than the Fagles translation which - while prettier to look at with the whole uncut edges thing (at least, my version does) - isn't as good.

But hey. The discussion's not going to center on the differences between translations, is it? I mean, the story and the themes brought up by it are going to be discussed - and as long as we all know what part of which book of the story we're looking at, it should be pretty much an even race, yus?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:16 / 17.01.02
As far as I know, the Lattimore is pretty good - for some reason I think it's much bigger in America. But yes, as long as you don't go utterly insane and get those free verse reworkings called things like "Myrmidon" we shoudl be OK. The Butler is *wery* old-fashioned and probably would be a bit of a drag factor.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
19:08 / 17.01.02
The only contribution I have but worth noting is that the Iliad and the first published edition of the bible were released in the same year.
Makes me think...
 
  

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