BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


PETITION TO KEEP BARBELITH OPEN

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
18:46 / 06.01.09
Why close it down because you don't like what it's become, when you can simply stop posting.

Keep it open for buisness.
 
 
dark horse
18:50 / 06.01.09
^^^ this
 
 
makeitbleed
11:13 / 07.01.09
I'd like Barbelith to remain as well. I don't see why the whole thing has to be shuttered if there's a group of people who don't want to continue posting. They always have the option of moving on, while if it was shut down, no one else would have the option of contributing.

For what it's worth, I'd like it to continue.
 
 
pony
06:43 / 09.01.09
I don't in any way like to be keeping company with Jawsus and Dark Stallion, but I must say that I have to side on the "throw the gates open and give this place one last chance" brigade. Open registration and trusted voices (i.e. Randy and Haus) perma-b&-ing the shit out of any PTS's seems to be the only possible chemo.
 
 
illmatic
07:28 / 09.01.09
Yeah, 'cos Haus really needs that shit in his life.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
10:32 / 09.01.09
Too right.
 
 
Ticker
15:03 / 09.01.09
Have Randy and Haus stated anywhere what they would like to have happen at this time?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:36 / 09.01.09
I'd like to find and get an enjoyable job that pays a decent salary and doesn't see me getting stressed to the point of being physically ill, but that shit ain't going to happen.

Similarly, I don't see much point in saying what I'd like to see happen with Barbelith, because... well.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:12 / 09.01.09
This is no longer a thread for people to say they'd like to keep Barbelith open, is it? It's a thread for people to get fucking pissy with each other.

Marvellous. Just what the Policy needs. Like all the other recent threads on the state of Barbelith, on both sides. BRILLIANT.

Good work, chaps!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:24 / 09.01.09
I wouldn't read too much into AG's inability to keep it in his pants, Stoaty.

Quick point of information, though:

I don't in any way like to be keeping company with Jawsus and Dark Stallion, but I must say that I have to side on the "throw the gates open and give this place one last chance" brigade. Open registration and trusted voices (i.e. Randy and Haus) perma-b&-ing the shit out of any PTS's seems to be the only possible chemo.

We've covered this before, I think. If you throw open the gates, I don't think there is any way to perma-ban, realistically and practically. Which is fine, as long as that's the decision that's made, but I don't think you can have both.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:25 / 09.01.09
If I were power-crazed, Alex, I'd have abused that power to ban you through the back door months ago.

As for "cock" and "monster"... I lolled, given who those comments are coming from and the opinion that a great many members of this board have voiced - and continue to voice - regarding your behaviour hereabouts.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:42 / 09.01.09
What exactly have I 'failed to keep in my pants'?

I think I've been restrained, if anything, under the circumstances. Perhaps I deserve it, but I have been on the receiving end of a fair amount of bad words here, recently.

I persist because if there is no grit in the oyster, there will be no pearl.
 
 
iamus
23:43 / 09.01.09
I think your methods leave much to be desired.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:17 / 10.01.09
Mm.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:27 / 10.01.09
XK: In answer to your question, I posited about four possible change states elsewhere:

Which, I think, gives us our two points. At one end, you've got Mist and Keggers in the petition thread - who use Barbelith basically as a chat room, and don't really have any investment in whether the bits which are not being used for chat are being used as a hate rally but would like to continue to have access to the parts of it they like. This is a convenient place for them to hang out and talk, and, you know, that is a valuable facility offered by this and other message boards. There are people here who would certainly be more isolated and unhappy without the Internet. The question possibly being where Barbelith sits in that - how necessary is it? Could that function be fulfilled by Livejournal or Facebook or, indeed, Liminal Nation?

From there you have two options, really. One is to set up an autoreply so that everyone who emails the Barbelith application email gets instructions on how to create a login, or we just put it in the wiki or the discussion thread. No more barriers to entry, no more possibility of banning, really - anyone who wants in gets in. It becomes a place with no control, little or no functional moderation, and so on.

The other is to stop applications and just have it as a kind of old folks' home - a legacy board where those who got in can stay if they want to, or can go at a time and in a method of their choosing. That's the model we basically have at the moment - a slow descent with some degree of control, but with no way of dealing with outbreaks of racism, sexism and unpleasantness that we used to have some sort of at least consensus condemnation. Once Randy and I go, there's not much in the way of immune system and less in the way of moderation.

Next along, which I think is what the petition is basically asking for, is an end to posting. That involves Tom turning a spigot. In that model, ideally, people could still log in, read and over time download their PMs, read the discussions but there would no longer be any way to contribute to threads.

And, at the far end, there's shutting the whole thing down, closing the board, either booting everyone out of their logins or just taking the whole thing offline.

Some of these options are more possible than others - the first two are actually quite easy, but they do involve basically giving up on the community as a place it is worthwhile to occupy, or the past of which it is worth trying to preserve. Which is a position, and maybe a healthy one. To make any of those the annointed status quo I think I'd probably want to get Tom's opinion. However, he's got a lot of stuff going on at present, and I don't think Barbelith is much of a pressing issue for him.


I thought of a fifth option, where Grant Morrison buys the domain name and sets up a proper fan forum, which actually would be sort of excellent but is a bit hard to make happen.

It's pretty clear that Randy and I aren't going to be able to stick the current state for much longer - it's just too tiring - and if we go then I think moderation of most of the fora starts looking much more difficult, so (3) may well involve moderating becoming slowly or quickly less effective also.
 
 
werwolf
06:39 / 12.01.09
[signing the petition]
 
 
harmonic series
16:50 / 21.01.09
I vote for keeping Barbelith alive.

Out of all of the possible choices as presented by Haus, I am most fond of the invite everybody but lose some control plan. Ideally the posters will aid in regulating the board.

Why restrict membership, then watch as the board slowly dies, and then complain about it? Either you want the forum to live, which means allowing growth even if it brings some undesirable side-effects, or you want a small, dysfunctional, inbred dynasty comprised of all of the "best" posters and nobody else. I fully support finding a way to ban members who consistently post inappropriately- but I think everyone should equally have that chance to be banned.

Barbelith in 2009!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:16 / 21.01.09
a) The "best" posters have pretty much left at this point. This is not an endgame that can ever occur.
b) There will be no way to ban if the board is opened. No way to ban ever again. I'm a little tired of explaining that.

Just FYI.
 
 
ghadis
17:45 / 21.01.09
'Barbelith in 2009!'

You planning on more than your average 10 posts a year then Harmonic?
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:11 / 21.01.09
I'm actually in favour of simply opening the doors. I'm curious as to how it would play out - I realise that there is a fairly plausible, if not inevitable path that is likely to be taken but I am intrigued by the details.

Obviously, my position pretty much rests on the fact that I don't think there is anything much worth saving - you can take your archives if you want, I don't think its that hard. Also, I have a lot of sympathy for E Randy and Haus who would be entirely relieved of responsibility if we removed all pretence of moderation. Surely you guys want a break at this point?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:39 / 21.01.09
Actually, I decided last night to ignore all moderation actions for the foreseeable future.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:36 / 21.01.09
Can't really say I blame you.

So we now have A Situation of Some Interest to look forward to? How many mods are about then, Randy, after you've abdicated?
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
21:08 / 21.01.09
"The best" posters may have left, but there may be new best posters out there. We'll never know unless we open the doors and let them in.

One of two things will happen. Either the posts will descend into the sort of mindless opinionating that fills the majority of forums across the web, in which case, the last of the old guard will leave and you will have no reason not to just shut it down. But possibly, a new consensus will be reached by the influx of new members, and Barbelith flowers again. Slim chance, perhaps, but worth a try, I feel. I don't want Barbelith to die.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:59 / 21.01.09
So we now have A Situation of Some Interest to look forward to? How many mods are about then, Randy, after you've abdicated?

Edits require three mod votes, yeah? In which case G&G is still covered, which is kind of ironic given how quiet it is. I'm not too sure about Policy or FTV&T - Haus mentioned another mod having left last week, but I don't know who that was. If it was Flowers, then FTV&T only has one active mod. Or, at least, one mod who still posts to the board and I'm aware of as being active. In which case my packing it in won't make any difference. sleaze might still be around, though, I don't know.

Policy... again, I don't know. Lurid's obviously still poking his head in every now and again, so it might be covered.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
15:08 / 22.01.09
All the above has been discussed to death with pretty much no actual movement, so before we all get virtual cholera, I'd say.

Shut it and archive.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
16:16 / 22.01.09
Either the posts will descend into the sort of mindless opinionating that fills the majority of forums across the web, in which case, the last of the old guard will leave and you will have no reason not to just shut it down.

there will, in that scenario, be no one here to shut it down.

I don't see why the whole thing has to be shuttered if there's a group of people who don't want to continue posting.

while this is part of the problem, people are more worried about what the site will become without moderation. it's not just "this is our barbelith"; it's "we are the only ones with the power to do anything on barbelith, and we're leaving, and you can't make more of us because Tom is gone."

"The best" posters may have left, but there may be new best posters out there. We'll never know unless we open the doors and let them in.

the new Best posters will not be able to become moderators.

Either you want the forum to live, which means allowing growth even if it brings some undesirable side-effects,

as has been noted, the "undesirable side-effects" include potentially legal problems.

if random jerk X shows up (or is already here) and decides to start flaming the board with death threats to Jews, or child porn, or other very serious problems, there's nothing you can do about it. there is no banning and there isn't going to be. very quickly there will be no moderation at all.

in addition to being something that anyone should want to avoid happening, this could be legal trouble for Tom (though I guess it's a bit his fault for not being around).

also, some people aren't crazy about the idea that their old archived posts and personas are stuck here and would forever be associated with whatever new depths Barbelith sinks to.

look, if you want crazy anything-goes message board utopia, go hang out at 4chan.

and consider that, as fucked up as it is, even 4chan has moderators and banning. this place could end up like that only *worse*.
 
 
pony
17:16 / 22.01.09
At least half of the possible outcomes Haus has outlined involve getting Tom involved, and making most other outcomes happen also involve Tom in one way or another. It seems like the "how the fuck do we get in touch with Tom, even for just 15 minutes?" question is just as pressing as selecting the endgame.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
17:43 / 22.01.09
Flowers has gone
 
 
This Sunday
20:22 / 22.01.09
I'd love for Barbelith to remain open and functional (to some degree), for purely selfish reasons of enjoying what some people have to say about certain things and, even more, the conversations between those people. Don't know if a promise that I'd be returning to active posting soon (warranty people finally coughed up and paid for my personal machine's repair) would help or hinder the cause of keeping the 'lith alive.

Hate to see the downward doomspiral of Old Guard vs New Potential or whatever, but the consensus OG has always been suspicious, anyway, as have their supposed powers and influence. And, I don't think new posters are always as bad as some response would make them appear, or always actually new. More than once, a supposedly new-ish poster has actually been around longer than some of the hypothetical elder gods of Barbelith. I'm digressing, sorry.

An archiving and lockdown would be nice, though, if the place is going to die as an active forum. No one may ever need to reread a Lateshift or What Would I Sex thread eight years down the road (though, thread-revivals could make me a liar there), but there is some worthwhile material elsewhere I'd hate to see denied an online presence.
 
 
ghadis
01:12 / 23.01.09
It's all about moderation now for me. I was swinging both ways for a bit and not really sure how i felt about it. BUT, there is no way that people can expect Randy and Haus and the other moderators that are still here to keep on doing what they do. Barbelith could just open up membership without moderation and i and, like Lurid, am quite curious to see what will happen. But, hey, we all know what will happen to be honest. The threads will become full of spam and porn and shit. I wouldn't like that to happen. Barbelith, in various forms, has been a big part of my life for getting on for 10years now. I've met a huge amount of great people through it. Hell, in a connected way i met my wife through it. It's been pretty fantastic and i've learnt a huge amount and for that i'm always thankful. But there just isn't anyway that i can see it working anymore. And for that i say, close it down. It's been fun and wonderful and all that. I'm going to scramble my password and all that and not come back now. So, Cheers for the fun! xxx
 
 
alsatia
05:45 / 21.02.09
Oh, please leave it open for posting! I've just come back to it after a long hiatus and read 6 lovely threads with no arguing or oddness. It's not completely dysfunctional, so leave it be.
 
 
ghadis
14:15 / 21.02.09
Well, i didn't really go anywhere after that slightly drunk melodramatic post a month ago. I'd forgotten about that to be honest. Don't know why i said i'd scramble my password as that is only really advice for people who can't really leave Barbelith alone in a troublesome way. I must have thought i'd wait until the morning then. And then forgot. Ah, well.
 
 
Tom Coates
01:21 / 28.02.09
Hey guys - I just thought I should pop in and say that I am around on and off (although mostly off), that I'm really sorry that Barbelith has not been a major priority for me for the last few years. I can't honestly say I can see that changing in the near future. My feeling is that maybe it is best that Barbelith died, but that I don't think that the right way to go about that is for me to formally shut it down. If you guys stop posting, then it'll die it's own death. If you guys go elsewhere then, similarly, it'll go away. But some of you will want to keep talking here, and so—realistically until such a point that the site just stops working—I'm not sure it's up to me to turn it off.

I would—as ever—love to be able to do something more with the place. I'd love to be able to get people to continue to develop stuff for us here, but at the moment I can't see how that would be particularly practical. Perhaps this is a decade-long slow period, and in 2015 it will spring up reborn and re-energised. Maybe I'll have sufficient spare money by then to do something more dramatic with it. Who can tell.

Anyway - you guys should know that if you ever need anything urgently, you can still contact me on tom /at/ plasticbag /dot/ org or at barbelith /dot/ com. I'm not completely absent and I will do what I can, but I won't realistically be able to do anything more than an hour's work on the place here and there...

I hope you're all doing okay and I will continue to check in every once in a while to see how stuff's going. And you should know, I'm still really proud of the community we built and everything that came out of it and hope that it will either flourish again here or somewhere else on the web in one form or another.

Yours, Tom
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:35 / 28.02.09
Well, that looks like it shuts down the options that would require intervention. Looks like we're pretty much back to where we have been for a while now. I've emailed Tom to work out what he wants to do about admissions.
 
 
Tsuga
00:56 / 01.03.09
It seems about the only thing he might be able to do functionally for the site, if anyone wants it, is to clean the moderator list and make some new moderators.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply