BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Internet, Conversation and Community

 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
05:24 / 09.12.08
This is a something I've been thinking about for a few days now, sparked by the financial crisis thread in Switchboard. Towards the end of that thread a few people start to talk about the internet and the way that it relates to social isolation.

I know that there are all sorts of problems with talking about 'the internet' as if it's a homogenous or monolithic entity, but I think there's potentially a lot to talk about here. I think that there are probably two main strands of possible discussion:

- The internet as a tool for changing society: Obabma using the net as a fundraising tool, microlending websites like Kiva, the release of the BNP membership list. There are a couple of older threads on the internet as progressive social force here and here.

- The internet as a community (or plurality of communities) in itself. This is something that has arguably been best discussed, on Barbelith at least, in the background of a great many different Policy threads. Do online communities function in the same way as real-world ones? Do they require leadership? Do they require a degree of coercion in order to function properly? What kind of responsibilities do members of an online community have to other members, and to the community itself?

At the moment I'm reading Possession, Ecstacy and Law in Ewe Voodoo, by Judy Rosenthal. She's interested in the idea of 'conversation', which I think could be useful for thinking about the internet in general and sites like Barbelith in particular:

The principle of conversation is very different from that of carnival or maintaining social order ... Conversation hosts meanings; it is a stage for the display and interplay of meanings ... A conversation cannot belong to one person the way a narrative can. It is one thing after another, a series of events and relationships and words between those conversing and all those listening and reading and writing

I know this post is a bit scattershot and sloppy (mixing and matching 'community' and 'society', for instance), and I apologise for that; as I say, I've been thinking about this for a few days, but I've not managed to sort my thoughts out into any terribly coherent form.
 
 
grant
13:46 / 09.12.08
Actually, I think "conversation" puts it just right.

Do conversations require leadership? Do conversations require a degree of coercion in order to function properly?

What *is* a properly functioning conversation (or community)?

And who's responsible for a conversation anyway?
 
 
Captain Zoom
13:46 / 12.12.08
I'm reading a few essays for an exam I have coming up, and one of them, by Susan Buck-Morrs, is about cultural dreamworlds. The gist is that a culture, in this case capitalist or communist, will express its cultural dream through the monuments it creates. One of her examples is King Kong in the 1930s showing the masses as a beast that can be tamed by a pretty face.

Can the internet be seen as a complex of cultural dreams? Perhaps even cultural dreams that are divorced from the IRL culture that an individual exists in. Par example, if I'm into sado-masochistic pictures of comic book heroines, I can create a website that showcases this. By putting the site up for consumption/show, I could very probably form a community around it. Said community will share an abstract vision of what the culture of sado-masochistic heroine pictures should be, and will create monuments/documents that prop up that vision. This cultural dream then intesects with others (like ones based around, hmmm, I don't know, how about psychedelic world-saving comic books that can't be seen!), and a further cultural dreamworld is created by this intersection. Or rather, a sub-cultural dreamworld that exists independently of the two originating cultures, but still relies on some of their basic ideas.

In that way, yeah, the internet can transform society by becoming a collection of societies in and of itself. There's probably an argument to be made that the culture one attaches oneself to online is far more important than the one in which one lives. Online, you can choose the culture you are a part of. I'm a part of a counter-culture discussion group that re-thinks the ways that society can run. I don't have access to that here in suburban Oakville, where the cultural dream is to own a half a million dollar home, and drink coffee from Starbucks every day.

(Though I do enjoy my Starbucks.)

Did that make sense at all? This cultural studies stuff I'm doing now seems to have limitless applications to the internet. I think the problem with the legitimacy of the internet as world-saving tool is that the cliche has become true: the internet is for porn. Now, whether your porn is naked people fondling each other, or ridiculous consumer goods that have no useful function, its still porn. The capitalist culture that created the internet has taken the King Kong idea and run with it. The internet is the pretty face that keeps us from being the wild beasts of revolution that we could be.

Ooooo, sorry, took a turn for the pessimistic there. The internet can only transform society by throwing off its capitalist culture shackles. We may think we have more freedom than countries that limit internet use for their citizens, but we only have more freedom to buy and consume. Not necessarily to discuss. Witness work email filters. And the stumbling block of the internet for collective action is that its all abstract, isn't it? For collective action to produce change, it has to manifest in the real world. Collective action online is just a discussion forum.

I think perhaps that there are bits of the internet that can function as templates for society. Yes, there always has to be a governing body. I think the evolution of the governing body here at Barbelith over the last 10 years or so has been good. There have been discussions of whether or not to shut the board down, how much authority should be given to individual posters, and who the authority should be given to. There has always been a very democratic slant to the governance of the board. That in and of itself is an excellent template for governance outside of the internet. The problem is implementation on a massive scale. Once an idea, a good idea, is sussed out, one has to figure out the mechanics of its application in the real world.

Threads like this help.

(I, too, felt like I rambled all over the place in that post. I suppose the point is to talk and talk until coherence and specificity are achieved, right?)
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:51 / 12.12.08
I suppose the point is to talk and talk until coherence and specificity are achieved, right?

Perhaps. I think it is possible to develop a writing style that prioritizes those virtues, driven by a sense of the purpose of the discussion. Could be a short cut.

My perspective is that a conversation can be hugely powerful to change the world: we all live on a planet together and when we can communicate about our needs and hear those of others we're approaching the kind of creative-conflicting skills necessary to organize the social world so we can move away from endangering the life-support systems of the human-biological world. I'm not content to consider the internets outside of the frame of a biological world which has certain physical laws and so on.

The outcomes I like are stuff like: acknowledgements that other voices have been heard, and critical perspectives composed from multiple views which then have power to engage and inspire others to find their own voices and those of others, and catalyze further conversations.
 
 
Captain Zoom
17:45 / 12.12.08
But can conversation alone be enough? Action can lead to action, though without the benefit of consideration and conversation, sometimes it is pointless action. Conversation can perpetuate conversation, but some kind of action needs to come of it, or its just dialectic. Conversation ought to perpetuate action that ought to perpetuate conversation. For the internet to become a tool of social change it has to interact with the outside world, and then be interacted with by the outside world.
 
 
Rose
15:02 / 25.01.09
A lot of good points, Captain Zoom. However, I think that dialectic, by its very nature, does create change (action), but I'm not sure that it is the same type of conversation that we are talking about here.

Conversations allow us to negotiate social values and those can be translated into social actions. Organizing a rally or protest on the web is a conversation that results in another conversation between two disparate communities (those who are protesting and those who are being protested).

At this point it seems unlikely that the internet will function much differently than other forms of media. There is certainly potential to reach a wider/different audience, but this technology must still be fundamentally understood as a tool and not a solution.

Conversation is, in my opinion, action and understanding that is almost as effective as a protest. Perhaps it is the climate of the country where I live or the particular activist communities that I am involved in, but conversation has been the most powerful action we have.

The divisions between conversation/action and real world/virtual world are artificial in nature; seeing where these intersect and how they influence each other provides us with important information that can lead to the type of change we are looking for.

If we want a tool for transforming society we have to use it for that particular means. Yes, there is a lot of porn on the web, but that seems like less of an obstacle than the wealth of misinformation spread as fact. When people look for people having sex or products to buy online they're engaging in a different aspect of the web than when they are looking for news or facts. The information overload and easily constructed fictions are where we should focus our critical evaluation.

I think.
 
 
el d.
07:09 / 10.09.09
We communicate, but is it a conversation? Is the Internet not rather a place in which a myriad of thoughts, profound or shallow, are thrown out in a shambling heap of confusion?

The modern concept of a conversation leading anywhere - how does that relate to the *chans? Can the kind of community necessary for the change of society even begin to materialise in this medium? Or is the medium per se changing society, with absolutely no one being able to even begin influencing that change?

Google is there, and if not Google it would have been someone else, the individuality of the actors is irrelevant in the place where tools are created when needs arise, and yet: That tool which would enable a community to translate it´s thoughts into actions is not created, because there´s no profit to be made with such a tool.

Open Source apparently works because lots of introverted people work on small projects that can be useful very quickly - But does anyone have experience with an Open Source project that does not develop a wikiHierarchy an instant after it´s creation? Why have no "anarchist" projects (in the sense of truly community-controlled) arisen in this medium that presents so many possibilities for such?

I´m all for throwing away the shackles of profit-driven development - But the social mechanisms for doing this need feedback mechanisms between the actors that necessarily have to be stronger than the ups and downs of online reputation (if one is even noticed).

Answers, please. I´m all out.
 
 
Haus Of Pain
18:46 / 04.03.10
Yes, I think you've just done a significantly better job than me of articulating what was making me uncomfortable
 
  
Add Your Reply