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Underground > Temple >

Please, this is the only fairly sane place I can turn to.

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02:57 / 08.11.08

It is a bit sad, but yes. There are wackos out there greater than myself.

You have to remember that ASHTER is monitoring this message Bord at this time we are here ,,,we are ready

Fucking hell! This is a cry for help, my dear lithers. These people are on a list that is local to me about UFOs. And while I believe in UFOs...after all there are many unidentified flying things about our world, I fear for the people. Tell me, what do I tell or ask these poor irrational folk?

This is not a joke. I wonder what I can do to prevent people from slipping into this cult like void.

03:55 / 08.11.08

Hrm. My understanding is that keeping people out of cults tends to be a case-by-case problem.

I'm fond of Bonewit's Cult Danger Evaluation Frame, which may be helpful to you - provided, that is, that you can convince people to use the thing.

Are there particular people you're worried about, or just the general influence, or what?

--Ember--

04:03 / 08.11.08

Thanks, Emberleo. A few people from a group are concerning me. They are lovely people, but one person is particularly concerned with being the centre of attention by channeling a "commander" on the "Ashtar" ships. Apparently, "Jesus" is one of the commanders too.

Yeesh.

10:07 / 08.11.08

Oy! I always thought the Bible could make good Sci-Fi....

But I meant in the other direction - are there people you are worried about getting sucked in, rather than people you are worried about doing the ...er... sucking.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I believe Automatic Writing and channeling are genuinely useful skills, but that's a suspiciously convenient use, eh?

--Ember--

13:19 / 08.11.08

I am concerned for concerned for all involved. They are having a meet today. I wanted to go but I am not interested in channeling. I am interested in UFOs. I have sent the Bonewits guide to a few members of the group. I also have this other site which looks good on Standards for Channeling. One thing that really annoys me about channeling is that all these entities have learned to speak English and don't seem to speak any other language that is not native or known to the channeler. See, THAT might impress me. Another things that bothers me is they all seem to be Christian Entities! The channeler in this group says that Jesus is a commander on one of the ASHTAR ships! LMFAO! Oh dear, I suppose Elvis is the co-pilot!

I hate to be cruel because I think this woman is very sick, but it is a little funny. Commander Jesus on the Mothership! Oh my...

14:00 / 08.11.08

Just to give you all an idea of the level of insanity:

11:44 PM (11 hours ago)
lillian to ufos-210

You have to remember that ASHTER is monitoring this message Bord at this time we are here ,,,we are ready

Why the hell do these entities monitor a bloody message board!?

14:33 / 08.11.08

To check for reptilian infiltrators, DUH!

Seriously, though:
Another things that bothers me is they all seem to be Christian Entities! The channeler in this group says that Jesus is a commander on one of the ASHTAR ships!

Ignoring for a moment the possibility that the channeler is simply full of shit, it's plausible that it's simply a matter of translation and interpretation. If a christian gets the impression of a luminous being, full of love and power, chances are they're gonna think it's Jesus.
That doesn't say anything about the being itself, of course, but rather speaks to the channeler's lacking ability to remain objective and be a clear channel for communication. This is, in itself, quite a damming indictment, but hardly as serious as outright lying and cultish fanaticism.

15:11 / 08.11.08

Give them an ounce of sense

15:33 / 08.11.08

Speaking of cultish fanaticism, presenting The ASHTAR Command Central. It seems that they have a website of their own!

Apparently, Lilliane cannot spell the name of her own cult.

00:53 / 09.11.08

Oy!

Um, in the Automatic Writing I have done, I've been very aware that there is a translation layer occurring. Sometimes it's less obvious than others, but when I get a reaction because my brain chose the wrong word, or when a concept is conveyed that there isn't an obvious word for, it becomes VERY obvious to me.

--Ember--

00:58 / 09.11.08

I should say - this doesn't make the stuff more plausible to my mind - I take my own stuff with several grains of salt, much less somebody else's. But yeah, I agree with the "Lost in Translation" premise, if there is any basis at all to what's being done here.

That said, I've also know folks whose fears, neuroses, schizophrenia, what-have-you has interfered with their work, and while some of them do learn to tell the difference, I suspect many never stop to wonder if there IS a difference. Which is why so many people say "As long as you're willing to question your sanity, you're probably going to be ok."

--Ember--

trouble at bill

13:51 / 10.11.08

That site was having loading issues when i clicked it but can someone clarify what exactly this 'cult' have done, or might do, which is so awful? Their beliefs may be unusual but that doesn't make them so different to many 'alternative' religious standpoints, including the one most of us are interested in. They may seem stupid and naive, but that's not in itself a crime. I'm not sure we should be getting judgemental until we know that they actually hurt or financially exploit followers...

20:32 / 10.11.08

There is no crime here. This is not about the Ashtar Command itself. It is about one particular person on a list manipulating the others in the group through unexamined channeling. She can believe what she wants, but I take issue with her or anyone else who uses their so-called "powers" to brainwash others.

I would like to show this group some tools for discernment, which Barbelith has in spades. Which is why the Bonewits guide suggestion was helpful. Any other suggestions along this line would be appreciated.

Certain people in the group are/were beginning to believe everything this woman said in trance and wouldn't give much thought to anything else. "Well, the Ashtar said...." is barely the type of conversation I would want to have when trying to have a serious discussion about unexplained phenomena. We wouldn't tolerate it here.

Some of the stuff this person claims to be channeling is personally targeting people in the group. Telling other people who they should "watch out" for, who is negative amongst the group. And this is done all done while "channeling" a being that is suposedly "superior" to us humans. That is what I have an issue with. In fact, I think that there is some abuse of the Ashtar Command itself. By saying she is channeling one of their commanders...oh, and Jesus, too.

00:59 / 11.11.08

See, I don't have an issue with the idea of her channeling higher beings (that would obviously be hypocritical of me, eh?) But I do have an issue with the agenda of the higher beings set forth being primarily divisive and hurtful. Most of all, I have a problem with such information being presented in such a way as to discourage questioning.

What I've seen so far (and suggested so far) is in the nature of a reality check. As far as I'm concerned, reality checks are pretty well always beneficial. If she's being honest, and reasonably sane, her response is likely to be "by all means, use your best judgment, and get confirmation by other means". If her response is "how dare you question me?!" you've got a problem there.

--Ember--

07:21 / 11.11.08

Challenge their entrenched reality tunnels with some alternative views- "I'm channelling Fluffy who says you are all lovely, fuzzy, wise, cuddly and forgiving."

07:42 / 11.11.08

Oh that's just beautiful Quantum! *laughs*

--Ember--

11:56 / 11.11.08

See, I don't have an issue with the idea of her channeling higher beings

Yeah, I guess I have a problem with this. Who is to say that these beings are "higher" beings? How do I know that? This is what is missing is any honest questioning of the entitites she channels. Anyway, it seems I may have hit a sore spot since she has left the group. I can't understand why no one questioned her before.

It is obvious that I have an issue with channeling. I am sure that there are bona fide occurances of it. I have even experienced it myself quite briefly. Ther is just too much abuse of this, though. Why would a so-called "higher" entity have a problem with someone not believing in it?

12:01 / 11.11.08

Oh yes, bill me later, I also had difficulty loading the site up.

Quantum, too cute.

trouble at bill

13:21 / 11.11.08

Hmm, you'd think one of the Enlightened Beings(TM) monitoring the site could give them a helping hand with their IT!

Some of the stuff this person claims to be channeling is personally targeting people in the group. Telling other people who they should "watch out" for, who is negative amongst the group. And this is done all done while "channeling" a being that is suposedly "superior" to us humans.

Definately a bad, but it wouldn't be the first time. Social politics being played out through channeling (and possession) is something I've seen plenty of. I sometimes worry that it might be inevitable, even.

But if she's gone then I guess normal service now resumes (or whatever passes for normal with these characters!)

17:28 / 11.11.08

I get mail from people like this every week.

There are far more of them out there than most people realize.

06:43 / 13.11.08

Who is to say that these beings are "higher" beings? How do I know that? This is what is missing is any honest questioning of the entitites she channels. ... It is obvious that I have an issue with channeling. I am sure that there are bona fide occurances of it. ... There is just too much abuse of this, though. Why would a so-called "higher" entity have a problem with someone not believing in it?

I don't have a problem with the mere idea. But I'm a firm believer in By Their Works Shall Ye Know Them, eh? Of course it should be questioned, and verified, and everyone must keep in mind that advice isn't itself any better or worse for who is giving it. Rather, we lend our trust to unverified advice more if there is some sort of authority behind it.

I do have a problem with false authority, whether the channeling itself is real or not. And I have a problem with false channeling, which is why I'm a firm believer in questioning and verification if it matters, and generally taking it with a grain of salt the rest of the time. Does this make more sense?

--Ember--

20:25 / 13.11.08

Papess, that was a facinating resource. Do you (does anyone) know of any other great links on the subject?

23:38 / 13.11.08

Hawthorne: Assuming that you mean the Standards of Channeling, and not the Ashtar Command, it is from Exopolitics Hong Kong in the articles link.

Actually, this article on Channeling as a reliable form of ET contact is very good as well. Not that I agree with everything the article states, but I do not disagree with it entirely either. Interesting, though.

19:50 / 14.11.08

Shiny links! Thank you, Papess.

--Ember--

21:36 / 15.11.08

Yes thanks. I am reading a Reliable Form of ET Interaction and yes interesting, yes it has some issues.

01:13 / 19.11.08

"I'm channelling Fluffy who says you are all lovely, fuzzy, wise, cuddly and forgiving."

Cosmic Bunny?

18:52 / 17.01.09

From a member of the same UFO group to me:
By using your powerful intellect [Papess], perhaps you can realize that heavy duty sceptics are corrosive to the soul of those members who have a much more intuitive side rather than so highly pronounced intellectual side in tandem with heavy duty scepticism...

It is funny, but here on Barbelith, I barely register as having an intellect, much less a powerful one. I guess compared to him I am a effin scholar. Bah, low standards are so easy to come by.

Anyway, I just wanted some opinions on whether skepticism could possibly be damaging to the "soul" or even intuitive abilities. My intuition tells me no, but the skeptic in me had to ask.

22:09 / 17.01.09

It sounds like this person essentially is saying:

"If you question what I'm saying, you're hurting me."

"Somehow."

"You know, psychically. Intuitively. In my soul."

Sounds like nothing more than a cheap dodge dressed up in New Age jargon to me. But hey -- I'm a skeptic.

23:03 / 17.01.09

I've always felt it a bit of a juggling act between skepticism and intuition. At what point do I stop questioning myself and have a little faith in myself?

If someone is relying heavily on a rather shaky intuitive ability then I would imagine some reasonably grounded skepticism is likely to disrupt that intuitive ability. Pointing out that a little doubt should be raised when someone has this faith in themselves is not always going to be warmly welcomed but it is not something that should always be avoided.

All you can really hope for is to word yourself as constructively as possible and hope it helps them make a reasonable decision as to where to draw the line between faith in themselves and doubt creeping in.

Another technique which has worked for me a good few times is a loud intoxicated rant at around 3am which is left to simmer for a few days or weeks before returning to the topic more calmly.

07:10 / 18.01.09

I don't think the skepticism I have is damaging my soul.

Giving room to my doubts feels grounding. I think it produces good soul fruit. The branches of the vine have to be stripped off for a good floushing vine next year, kinda thing.

Like Gavin DeBecker's threat assessment stuff: a person has to listen to what their uneasiness tells them, not obscure it with some social politeness, in order to learn how to identify useful alerts from the lower levels of consciousness, to stay safe and help dependents stay safe.

I really value my love for and commitment to the truth, and that attitude seems to liberate me, that's good enough for me at the moment. I get back to the basics which work for me: "I can feel gravity acting on my body", "it's good to breathe", "relaxing helps my body work effectively", and so on.

To me this person sounds like they are blocking their own intuition rather than using it, and attempting to get you blocked as well. Julia Cameron's 'The Artist's Way' has some stuff on overcoming blocks that I've found really useful.

This reply you're posting reminds me of an observation on the use of that label 'psychic'. I think it has a tendency to be taken up by people who are seeking to have authority over other people's perceptions: "I'm the one who knows what's really going on, you are a mere sheeple" etc. Might just be my perception of the world but I think people can often find what's true for themselves when they are willing to make a bit more space to listen.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

01:31 / 20.01.09

skepticism is a sign that you have abandoned the illusion of certainty.

intuition is essentially the voice of the subconscious mind trying to communicate with the conscious. ("Hare Brain, Tortoise Mind" by Guy Paxton is a good source on this).

Intuition is great, if you know how to apply it. Skepticism is also great, if you know how to apply it. They are tools, and require practice to acquire the skill to use them.

and the practice doesn't ever stop...

20:00 / 29.01.09

Thank you everyone for your responses to my last question. I have learned over the years on Barbelith, to be much more skeptical with a lot of practice. What I found is that it balances me out. Skepticism makes me think more and actually research what other have to say on the subject. Which is a very expansive practice. Intuition can be sometimes be a little withdrawing, even self-involved, IMHO. Sometimes only relying on intuition only concerns one with their own conclusions. Skepticism allows one to investigate, question and use all tools available to them. And a good skeptic, I think, would not put intuition in direct contrast with skepticism.

I find it very odd that I am part of a group where it is frowned upon. After spending so much time trying to develop this skill.

22:11 / 29.03.09

[deleted by moderators]

22:31 / 29.03.09

DARKMATTER!!!

00:17 / 04.04.09

Hmm, I missed that.

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