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Democracy in the UK

 
  

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Fist Fun
15:58 / 15.08.08
flowers was blatantly referring to free from favoritism.

Well I don't see that the usage of fair in that sentence was clear in that way. I totally fail to see how a regime like Zimbabwe has less favoritism than a free democracy such as the UK. I think what flowers was trying to say is that the majority of the people in Zimbabwe suffer the same level of bad treatment while a small number in power profit from repression of the people. I don't see that has anything to do with any sane definition of fairness.

Now why don't you address the fact that Mugabe, Musharraf and indeed Hitler were initially democratically elected.

That is a fair point. It sucks.

I think separation of powers is the classic way to protect democracy from tyranny. Apart from that I don't have any solutions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:10 / 15.08.08
Oh, and Musharraf wasn't intially elected - he took power and was subsequently elected. But horses for courses.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:26 / 15.08.08
Thanks for that, Haus. You are like a little goldmine of information.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
16:32 / 15.08.08
It can be argued that the US has the most open, fairest democracy in the world.

Yet Bush remains that country's leader due to vote rigging, discounting large numbers of votes, and in spite of actually losing the "Popular" vote. (The one person = one vote thing is ignored when it comes to many systems.)

Argue if you will that the UK is not the US and that things are different, Buk, but you cannot convince me that democratic elections are by definition, "Fair", in all practices, even in the UK. Although the burden of proof is not upon you, you still have no proof that all votes are counted as cast. You also cannot prove that a vote for candidate X produces result X, and that if it doesn't, simply vote for someone else next time.

No the burden of proof rests with me, and I cannot point to solid proof to back up my claims... However, I still think that general elactions in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, and most of the west are identical to elections held in High School: You vote for candidates approved or chosen by the school Administration. Attempts to jam the election will be ignored or punished. After you've voted someone in, they do exactly what the Administration tells them to do. The status quo is kept and people go on with their studies, like it or not. Again, this is my personal belief based on speculation.

You ask for alternatives: The people who claw their way to the top to a "democratically" elected position often violently oppose alternatives to democracy. The rabid anti-socialist policies of many democratic societies such as the US attest to this. While the UK is miles ahead of the US when it comes to social programs, I believe that the discussion to privatize many services is becoming a growing concern even there.

As long as capitalism and a dependency on a monetary system exists, democracy as a system has too great a potential to be corrupt.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:50 / 15.08.08
You also cannot prove that a vote for candidate X produces result X, and that if it doesn't, simply vote for someone else next time.

Well, yeah, but there is an independant electoral commission to watch over this stuff and the newspapers actively seek out any cases of fraud.

There has been electoral fraud in the UK, which has been widely publicized and denounced. I don't think anyone would actually say that the result of elections is rigged though. We take that for granted, see flowers comments about Zimbabwe being fairer, but not everyone enjoys that luxury.

democracy as a system has too great a potential to be corrupt.

What do you think makes democracy prone to corruption?

If I was to fight corruption in any system I'd want decision making to be transparent, a strong watchdog to oversee and expose corruption, seperation of power and role rotation. Anything else you would add to that list? Is there a better system than democracy to implement that list?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:19 / 15.08.08
Buk, I'm not sure whether there's anything I can do to help you with this inability to understand the English language that you develop when someone disagrees with you. Do I think the situation in Zimbabwe is just? No. Would I like to live there? No. It is fairer to it's people because they all have absolutely no say in the running of their country. Over here some of us do get a say in running the country, as long as we're rich (and owning something we could use to broadcast our views to the public helps). And even if you march in your millions the House of Commons decides it knows better than you because it's glanced through the scribblings of some A-Level student. And then you've got the unelected second house which held up equalising rights for the queer community because it got too excited reminiscing about it's schooldays when they played The Biscuit Game.

Have I been able to get through to you yet?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
17:32 / 15.08.08
and the newspapers actively seek out any cases of fraud.

Well, I'm not the only one guilty of unsubstantiated speculation, at least...

Do you honestly think that newspapers/agencies are innocent or incapable of political agendas? If they are the first to trumpet election fraud, it's because it will most likely be claims against the candidate they lean away from...

Is there a better system than democracy to implement that list?

A benevolent theocracy, perhaps? (I mean if we're going to dream of perfect utopias...)
 
 
Fist Fun
07:54 / 16.08.08
Buk, I'm not sure whether there's anything I can do to help you with this inability to understand the English language

Well one of us certainly has a weird understanding of the word fair but if it is just about the meaning of that word then I am a lot less worried.

Although you did also say:

I'm beginning to wonder why we should vote our tyrants in, shouldn't they be made to seize power by force of arms or something? At least that would be more honest.

Which seems to say that you think democracy in the UK is as bad as a tyranny. Which again makes me think that you have absolutely no appreciation of the freedoms you enjoy. Either that or you just stupidly wrote a few things without thinking which you don't really mean.

And even if you march in your millions the House of Commons decides it knows better than you because it's glanced through the scribblings of some A-Level student.

Well in the UK you are (mostly) free to protest but decisions are made by democratically elected members of parliament.

It's interesting you talk about a march of millions. What do you think about my earlier example? A million (or whatever) people marched to protest the invasion of Iraq yet in 2005 the majority of voters opted for a party which supports the war. Doesn't this give a democratic mandate for the invasion of Iraq? The people have a had a free, fair vote and have made this decision.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
08:04 / 16.08.08
Oh, and Musharraf wasn't intially elected - he took power and was subsequently elected. But horses for courses.

Sorry, I always forget that!
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
08:15 / 16.08.08
It is fairer to it's people because they all have absolutely no say in the running of their country.

That's not really true, it's generally the case with dictators that they have people around them who make as many decisions as them and a corrupt police force to enact their policies in the street. If you are a member of that police force you clearly are higher up in the hierachy then a farmer who openly supports democracy would be. Essentially then, the system is not specifically fairer, if you agree with Mugabe and met him when he first took power there's a good chance you'll be in a very comfortable position in Zimbabwe now. In that way it's very similar to democratic politics, appointing government advisors is pretty much the same thing and since there isn't any hyper-inflation here people on the street have it better. So genuinely I don't think your argument works though I can see why you made it.
 
 
Fist Fun
08:18 / 16.08.08
Well, I'm not the only one guilty of unsubstantiated speculation, at least...

There are plenty of easy to find examples of the press exposing corruption in parliament. Most of the corruption is absolutely piffling compared to what goes on every day in the business world. I am far more corrupt than the average MP. Examples would be the recent investigation of MPs expenses and the cash for questions scandal. Both were given massive publicity.

Do you honestly think that newspapers/agencies are innocent or incapable of political agendas? If they are the first to trumpet election fraud, it's because it will most likely be claims against the candidate they lean away from...

Obviously each newspaper/writer/blogger has a political agenda. With a free press that is normal and good. The way that combats corruption is that there will always be someone eager to expose corruption. I completely agree that somebody would "trumpet election fraud, because it will most likely be claims against the candidate they lean away from" but that is a good thing. That would only be bad if there wasn't a free press reflecting the whole of the political spectrum.

Again we can get really complacent about the massive benefits of having a free press but not everyone gets to enjoy this luxury. A free press is clearly a huge deterrent to corruption because we know somebody will eagerly expose any that surfaces.

A benevolent theocracy

I'm not sure how exactly a benevolent theocracy would work but it would seem to be much more likely to be corrupt. I assume any government would be appointed by the religious body rather than fairly and transparently elected. I assume there would not be a limited mandate. I assume there would not be a free press (would the press be allowed to criticize a holy person?).

As I already asked what would you need to prevent corruption in any system? Transparency, a strong watchdog to oversee and expose corruption, separation of power and role rotation, limited mandate. I cannot see how a benevolent theocracy would provide that better than a democracy... and I'm not talking about idealistic utopias here (although you for some reason are) I'm giving the concrete example of the UK democratic system. I'm not saying it is entirely free from corruption or perfect but it certainly designed to limit corruption.

If we were to replace the UK democratic system with a benevolent theocracy are you actually claiming it would be less likely to suffer from corruption?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:39 / 16.08.08
Buk I'm not sure how exactly a benevolent theocracy would work but it would seem to be much more likely to be corrupt.

Which would mean it wouldn't be benevolent. I'm dubious about theocracies in general, I think a benevolent dictatorship would probably be the best, perhaps something 'God Emperor of Dune'ish, though then you have the disadvantage that it would probably stifle the inventive spirit, plus that even if we had some superhumanly kind chief person who was able to resist the temptations to misuse their office as soon as you have anyone in opposition to them with either similar supernice beliefs or someone nasty who wants the power it creates friction which then results in misery to other people, so that collapses almost immediately.
 
 
Fist Fun
09:02 / 16.08.08
So you think a dictatorship would be less prone to corruption than a democracy like the UK?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:58 / 16.08.08
BENEVOLENT dictatorship.
 
 
sleazenation
10:23 / 16.08.08
If you are looking for examples of a theocracy then you can look at the Holy See of the Vatican.

Also, Iran, though Iran arguably has more democratic elements to its system of government.
 
 
Fist Fun
10:36 / 16.08.08
So you think a benevolent dictatorship would be less prone to corruption than a democracy like the UK? Would you like to expand on that? What parts of the system prevent corruption?

As I said I think transparency of decision making, a strong watchdog to oversee and expose corruption, separation of power and role rotation are the things you need to prevent corruption in any system.

I think you are relying on the benevolent part of benevolent dictatorship to prevent corruption but relying on the agreement or wish of one person to behave well is not an effective check on corruption as you clearly said yourself so I completely fail to see why that is less prone to corruption that a democracy like the UK.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:28 / 16.08.08
Why do you bother starting these threads when you clearly have no intention of even attempting to process anything that anybody else has said in response?
 
 
Fist Fun
12:57 / 16.08.08
What do you mean? Can you give me some examples of what you mean from this thread?

I mean that genuinely, not in a snarky way. I honestly want this to be a good discussion of democracy, which I think it is. If I am in anyway being unfair then I am happy to look at examples and see if I should correct my behaviour.

Let's keep this on-topic as much as possible though and let the discussion speak for itself rather than any personal dislikes.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:56 / 16.08.08
Buk. How do you understand the involvement of the press in the build up to the latest war in Iraq? Because I, and I don't think I am alone, broadly see it as an example of press over-reliance on official sources, which led to a general failure to challenge the Bush (and Blair) line on WMD in Iraq. This wasn't a conspiracy, but a systematic failure to challenge a claim for which there was no evidence and which, by the best estimates, ended up costing hundreds of thousands of lives. This is one, quite important, example but I think it isn't at all isolated.

I more or less agree with your support for democracy, but I think your somewhat simplistic stance is the source of contention. For instance, you see the broad consensus in politics as indicative of unity; I see it as a failure of democracy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:19 / 16.08.08
Also, of course, no political party undertook in its manifesto to invade Iraq, so in those terms nobody could be said to have voted for a party in the expectation that it would. Also, of course, in the UK you don't vote for parties but for people, who are usually members of parties and are then expected to follow the party whip but are given the right to make choices on your behalf. But then I think I already said that.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
14:26 / 16.08.08
OK, Buk is now deliberately trolling me in the 'duh, me no understand yo' fancy language, me am simple folks' mode, so unless anyone else wants to have a discussion I am done with this thread.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:45 / 16.08.08
Flowers, I am genuinely not trying to troll you. I am questioning your statement that a benevolent dictatorship is less prone to corruption than a democracy like the UK because I disagree with it. Maybe I'm wrong and you are right but you would have to explain how a dictatorship is less prone to corruption.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:50 / 16.08.08
Also, of course, no political party undertook in its manifesto to invade Iraq, so in those terms nobody could be said to have voted for a party in the expectation that it would.

I take that point on board the fact remains that the majority of voters opted for parties who had supported the invasion of Iraq at the next general election. Every voter had the choice to vote for a party that opposed the war and the majority chose not to.
 
 
Fist Fun
15:03 / 16.08.08
Buk. How do you understand the involvement of the press in the build up to the latest war in Iraq? Because I, and I don't think I am alone, broadly see it as an example of press over-reliance on official sources, which led to a general failure to challenge the Bush (and Blair) line on WMD in Iraq. This wasn't a conspiracy, but a systematic failure to challenge a claim for which there was no evidence and which, by the best estimates, ended up costing hundreds of thousands of lives. This is one, quite important, example but I think it isn't at all isolated.

I don't know too much about that. Would be interesting to go back in the archives and take a look. I suppose at the time nobody knew and information from supposedly trusted sources turned out to be false. It would be really interesting to find out how strongly it was questioned at the time. I do remember that several newspapers campaigned against the invasion and large numbers of people protested. So there certainly was a high profile, free debate. Although I totally see your point about how the free press might have failed there.

For instance, you see the broad consensus in politics as indicative of unity; I see it as a failure of democracy.

Well I think there is a general agreement about most of the big issues of the day. Most people vote for parties with broadly similar policies, even though they have the choice to pick any party. Can you give me examples of any major issues where there is not broad consensus?

I suppose the invasion of Iraq would be the obvious one. But the Liberal Democrats were the biggest party to oppose it and their share of the vote only rose a small amount (3%) in 2005.

I think when you say failure of democracy you mean more failure of the first past the post system (I think, please correct me if wrong, don't want to put words in to your mouth). More proportional representation would give more voice to minority parties so that could be a solution within the democratic system.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:29 / 16.08.08
Well, buk, I think one problem may be that you have a very particular, and somewhat unusual, understanding of how representative democracy works.

When I vote for a party, I pretty much disagree with most of the specifics of their policies. If I am lucky, I agree with some of the broad sweep of their manifesto and if I am very lucky some of that turns into policy.

One strand of your point of view is that you completely discount tactical voting. But in a representative democracy, *all* voting is tactical. The only way I can vote for someone I totally agree with is to stand myself, which I hope you will realise is not a particularly realistic strategy.

For instance, I didn't vote Lib Dem despite opposing the Iraq War, for many reasons. Partly, I believed that a Lib Dem vote would probably do more to help the Tories and partly I don't believe that Lib Dems have any real commitment to social justice. Now, you might disagree with my assessment, but voting for the party you dislike the least is how the game works. And as people keep saying, it is a well known feature of many representative democracies that, for particular issues, there are no mainstream parties which have a policy which reflect the majority view.
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
15:44 / 16.08.08
Buk, I think you're giving most of us the impression that you condone democracy, that you think that it is always better than any alternative. If I believed that you were interested in actually reading about the way that political systems work or were capable of grasping the idea that sometimes democracy results in bad decisions then I would ask your opinion about the current situation in Mauritania. However I don't think that you even grasp the British political system, I don't think you understand how the government in the UK is elected and I doubt you grasp the difference between the congress/senate and commons/lords systems currently in operation in the UK and US. On no account do I believe you understand how members of the public stand for election in this country- for instance how many times have you had the opportunity to actually elect a green as an MP? How many seats did minority parties put people up for in the last general election Buk? I actually find the idea that Most people vote for parties with broadly similar policies quite irritating, partly because only 61% turned out to vote in 2005 and partly because in a large number of seats you don't get to choose beyond broadly similar policies. You blame the electorate for huge flaws in the political system, you talk about proportional representation but that's the easiest solution, everyone knows proportional representation would make a bit of a change in the way our democracy works representationally. What do you think PR would do to parliament, give us a breakdown of what would happen to party politics if that's your solution to the democratic peculiarities that this country faces.

What about funding issues for smaller parties? What about the fact that people in some seats have a choice between Labour and the Conservatives? What about the fact that almost 40% of the electorate don't bother to vote at all? What about the fact that these 'representatives' vote with their party once elected?
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:45 / 16.08.08
OK, I know this is predictably number geeky of me but.....Arrow's Impossibility Theorem is about "showing" how no voting system can be "fair". The scare quotes should be taken to be particularly scary here. Still interesting though.
 
 
Fist Fun
15:47 / 16.08.08
That's a fair point about tactical voting. What do you think about proportional representation then? People are much less likely to vote for the least worst option with that in place.

And as people keep saying, it is a well known feature of many representative democracies that, for particular issues, there are no mainstream parties which have a policy which reflect the majority view.

Interesting. What examples are you thinking of?
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:54 / 16.08.08
Well, if I'm being played for a fool at least I do it with good intentions.

I think some people have mentioned the death penalty, Buk, as an example of a popular policy in the UK which none of the major parties support. Health care in the US is often used as another example, as was the war in Iraq. One could quibble to an extent - how do you really know what people think, since there is ample evidence to suggest that simply asking them doesn't produce reliable information? But I think it is hard to deny that this phenomenon in general - parties not offering policies favoured by a majority or a sizeable minority - must be in play.

After all, there are a staggering number of ways of organising the nuts and bolts of society - taxation, health provision, legal system etc - and mainstream parties in stable democracies offer a narrow selection of alternatives which deviate slightly from the status quo. Thats just path dependence, to an extent, but the point still stands. And thats before we get into discussions of the influence of corporate power and systematic bias. Al Gore talks about this in his latest book (so sue me, it was an airport buy)....by which I mean that these points are utterly mainstream and well discussed.


As for PR....sure, I see advantages to it. But that mathsy link wasn't just a joke. All voting systems have problems and tactical voting is always a feature. One has only to look to Italy to see that PR can be a disaster.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:58 / 16.08.08
I've yet to see anyone bring up the question of how exactly we know (or even can know) that democracy "works". What kinds of metrics (qual or quant) ought we use? So far, Buk has argued from a kind of virtue position - democracy is the best because it incorporates the kinds of virtues ze seems to hold dear. Others have broadly pointed out that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So IMO Buk is resisting a consequentialist analysis of the goodness of democracy, with which others are attacking his position.

Seems to me the debate gets incredibly sterile and trivial unless alternatives are posed as coming from a specific set of values regarding who should be in power, how that power should be vested and divested, who gets a say in investing and why.
 
 
Quantum
12:20 / 17.08.08
I was going to point at Arrow's theorem, but Lurid already has- to me that pretty clearly shows how any party politics democracy is unrepresentative and railroads the vast majority of voters into the least-worst choice of two terrible choices.

Can you give me examples of any major issues where there is not broad consensus?

Environmentalism. (e.g. building more nuclear power stations)
Proportional Rep. (only the Libs propose any kind of electoral reform)
War (Iraq obvs. but also Afghanistan etc)
Immigration
Judicial reform
Education
Taxation
Devolution
Health
Transport

Buk, can you give me examples of any major issues where there *is* broad consensus?
 
 
Fist Fun
09:33 / 19.08.08
Broad issues of consensus would be

- should we have a free market
- should we have a democracy
- should there be a free press
- should there be public services funded by taxation

Most of things you mention there are more about the details of implementation.

So when you say health, transport, education, taxation the argument about whether we should pay taxes to fund a transport and health system is pretty much over.

There is certainly debate about the details. How much privatization, how much tax and in what form, what kind of things should be funded.

At a high level most people agree on what works, in this fantastically rich, well working society.

Although reading about China and the Olympics just now it seems like there is a broad consensus there about how things should run.

I'm been thinking about, and taking on board what people have been saying, the last couple of days on this thread.

Do you guys think that the democracy we have in the UK actually gives the people more power than say a one party system such as China or a dictatorship such as Iraq under Hussein? I think some of you guys are saying that democracy is such a flawed concept, or at least the UK implementation, that the people actually don't have power or maybe even that they shouldn't have power.
 
 
Fist Fun
09:34 / 19.08.08
Seems to me the debate gets incredibly sterile and trivial unless alternatives are posed as coming from a specific set of values regarding who should be in power, how that power should be vested and divested, who gets a say in investing and why.

Not quite sure what that means but I agree. I would love to hear some alternatives. If someone held a gun to your head and demanded a better system than democracy what would you come up with?
 
 
Anna de Logardiere
16:01 / 20.08.08
There is certainly debate about the details. How much privatization, how much tax and in what form, what kind of things should be funded.

What?! Sorry, you think those are details??? If one party wants to privatise half the NHS and the other wants to keep it as it is that's not a detail but a major issue! What fucking planet are you living on?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:06 / 20.08.08
My thoughts exactly.

Also the debate here seems to confound the issues of democracies as political systems with democracy as a political philosophy. The two are not necessarily the same.
 
  

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