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Nature and Not

 
 
This Sunday
05:15 / 02.08.08
Springboarding from a topic it was taking over, let's talk about natural and unnatural.

I don't find either term particularly useful and I think it's dangerous to assume we all have the same thing(s) in mind when they're being brought out into a conversation. Similarly, I dislike the term "supernatural" as it also strikes me as nonsensical and in its way very anti-objectivity and anti-science.

Is there a such thing as unnatural? Is it like existence and nonexistence, this natural/unnatural binarism? Is nonexistence, as a thing, concept, or state synonymous with unnatural? Is unnatural another way of saying, not "is not" but "should not be"? Is it always a judgment, or is that just me being paranoid?
 
 
HCE
06:04 / 03.08.08
Well there's 'natural' in the sense of 'occurring in nature without human interference' -- sugarcane is natural, the processed white sugar we get in packets is not. But this meaning changes over time -- having been exposed to a startling array of chemical sweeteners, I've gotten to the point where I defend the same sugar I formerly condemned as 'unnatural' -- I practically think of white sugar as health food, next to saccharine and aspartame.

I hit a problem when trying to describe things that other people believe exist, such as gods and magic, which I described as 'supernatural'. It was pointed out to me that these things are not considered supernatural, but rather part of the natural world, by some of the people who believe in them. I was trying to pick a neutral term that would distinguish between the sort of nuts-and-bolts, laws-of-physics everyday reality and another one in which things like prayers work, but 'supernatural' was seen as inaccurate and indeed possibly offensive. I think that 'natural' does carry a positive value while the other two terms carry a somewhat negative one, though supernatural is a softer term than unnatural.

Is this the kind of thing you were looking for? If so, may I suggest a move to Convo where you may get more foot traffic, particularly from some of our new posters who haven't gotten really comfortable with HS yet? If this post is off the mark, please feel free to ignore it or explain in a bit more detail what it is you're interested in talking about.
 
 
Neon Snake
09:21 / 03.08.08
Is it always a judgment, or is that just me being paranoid?

I don't think that "unnatural" is always a judgement, but very often it is. I almost can't help but equate it mentally with unpleasant conversations about sexuality, since that's where I most often hear the term, and it tends to have very negative judgement attached to it.

I personally equate "supernatural", on the other hand, with positive judgements - "David Beckham has almost supernatural skills with a direct free kick" and the like, indicating a level well above the norm.

The issue I have with the natural/unnatural debate, using unnatural as a negative, is that I think the difference is often trivial and lacking in meaning. So what if something is "unnatural"? What does that actually mean? And why does it matter? It's an appeal to an authority that I'm not sure exists.

Ref. supernatural and magic, I'm quite comfortable with the term (and I'm a practitioner), since sometimes we have to use something to designate what's being discussed, but I can see how some people might take offence. Given that I have positive associations with the word, though, my feelings might be very different to others.
 
 
Proinsias
21:33 / 04.08.08
Well there's 'natural' in the sense of 'occurring in nature without human interference' -- sugarcane is natural, the processed white sugar we get in packets is not. But this meaning changes over time -- having been exposed to a startling array of chemical sweeteners, I've gotten to the point where I defend the same sugar I formerly condemned as 'unnatural' -- I practically think of white sugar as health food, next to saccharine and aspartame.

I never really get this line of reasoning. It's like rice becoming more unnatural if we remove it's jacket.
Stuff tends to occur in the natural world by interfering with other stuff. It makes me think back to the example given by Alan Watts of the giant human built tower block as unnatural but the birds nest as nice and natural. It's part of human nature to mess about with stuff and I don't see saccharine as unnatural, I'm not likely to consume it though. I see it as quite natural that my diabetic mother in law, with a sweet tooth, would consume sweeteners.

I think I'm with Neon Snake and Dcdnt Dytrppr n Lv as I don't find the terms particularly useful and often encounter unnatural in negative areas. I personally employ unnatural on occasion with much the same spirit as Keanu Reeves employs 'whoa'.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
02:08 / 05.08.08
they're useful terms in the limits of the context of a conversation.

in a given context of a conversation say of comparing a stick used as a tool by crows to depleted uranium as a tool.

outside of the specified context, the meaning becomes vague as you've suggested.

but isn't that true of language in general?
 
 
Automatic
08:57 / 05.08.08
In terms of language, it seems to me that the concept of the 'un-natural' arises in language from the time before the formulation of the theory of evolution.

If you accept the notion of a creator, and mankind being separated from the animal kingdom, then in my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to categorise things as to natural and un-natural. If you are postulating that every living being is created from a divine design then any deviation from that design can be seen as negative.

To take a contentious issue; a common criticism made of homosexuality by some elements of Christianity is that it is 'un-natural'. If you're basing your world-view on a set text, then it is understandable that those beliefs could arise. After all, to use the tired old fundamentalist Christian cliche "God created Adam and Eve, he didn't create Adam and Steve." I think that at the root of a concept of un-natural behaviour is the belief that man is created by a divine being.

However, if you choose to discount Christian mythology then 'un-natural' quickly disintegrates. According to evolutionary theory, man is just one of innumerable animals on this planet, just another branch on the tree of life. If you see a man as an animal, a being on its base genetic level formulated on pretty much the exact same principles as any other organism on this planet then it becomes ridiculous to consider anything that man could ever possibly do could go against a 'nature'.

An interesting line of study for me could be whether the concept of the un-natural is formed in ancient animist cultures like the Native Americans or the Aborigines. I must apologise for my level of knowledge on this front, but how widespread is the concept of 'un-natural' outside the major Abrahamic religions?
 
 
Mirror
12:58 / 05.08.08
Quoting from the other thread:

The way I'm defining "unnatural" is as something that sacrifices long term group/species/kingdom/life benefits for perceived short term individual benefits... The extinction of one or two species could knock out chunks of other species dependent upon them for varying reasons, devastating an environment. I'm defining "unnatural" as something that has this as its ultimate effect, and "natural" as something that strengthens an environment and allows for greater life diversity.

This is interesting to me because I'd always considered "natural" and "unnatural" to be judgment-free terms at the root, and the pejorative use of "unnatural" to be somewhat colloquial. That notwithstanding, it seems to me that this view ignores a lot of history; the Permian extinction for example can be regarded as nothing but natural, and yet at the time it is estimated that somewhere between 90 and 95% of marine organisms went extinct. So, over the longest time scales, there is no such thing as a "strong" environment, merely a dynamic equilibrium.

The reason I suggested the use of "artificial" to describe the effects of human efforts is simply that it seems that people want to be able to distinguish such effects from those that do not have human causes. I don't dispute that sorting these things out is a tangled problem, with lots of indirect relationships, but that desire to distinguish and set apart human effects seems to be the core of the discussion. I probably skipped a bit in my earlier post, though: those things that are artificial are a proper subset of the set of all natural things, which is equivalent to the set of things, period.
 
 
Mirror
13:55 / 05.08.08
As an addendum, I think that the pejorative use of "unnatural" is something of a cop-out because it is frequently used in cases where someone wishes to assert that an action is immoral, unethical, or shortsighted, but wants to lend some additional authority to that assertion by implying that the condemned action violates some sort of natural order. In this respect, to label something as unnatural is fundamentally to attempt to stifle discussion and avoid personal responsibility for the condemnation of the action.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:28 / 05.08.08
A better term than 'unnatural' might be 'sur-natural', possibly, in the sense that 'sur-real' means more real than real. So you'd be saying that it seems odd, new, different, etc, but also accepting that it's a part of nature (so not 'super' or 'un'). Although 'sur' as prefix is French, and a better one might be out there.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:30 / 05.08.08
Of course, in 99% of cases where people are saying 'un-natural' there's probably another, more complicated reason and it would be far better to drop the attempt to place the subject into some relation with 'nature' and explain what one's real problem with the thing is ...
 
 
HCE
17:53 / 05.08.08
I never really get this line of reasoning. It's like rice becoming more unnatural if we remove it's jacket.

It actually isn't a line of reasoning, it's a description of usage.
 
 
Proinsias
21:54 / 05.08.08
I could be off the mark but isn't it used that way for a reason? if not then I don't really favour that sort of usage.
 
 
HCE
15:24 / 06.08.08
Do you see the difference between something being used "for a reason" (with some particular purpose in mind) and a "line of reasoning" (arguments leading to a conclusion)?
 
 
HCE
15:28 / 06.08.08
In case that sounds snippy, let me clarify that I'm asking you to clarify because I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Do you want to make a case that everything that exists is natural, and only imaginary or fictional things can be unnatural or supernatural?
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:55 / 06.08.08
The same case for natural/unnatural could be made for good/evil: It's a value set.

The word natural could mean radically different things between such varied persons as an environmentalist, a (insert religion here) fundamentalist, and a sports agent. There isn't a set-in-stone definition which could be used by all. You could argue until you are blue-in-the-face about how you define natural against someone else's opinion, but the fact is that it's just a word which can be used to try define an ever-changing concept.

That one could argue that everything that exists is de facto natural, and conversely, one could argue that only that which is found in a pre-human-tampering state is natural, is semantics.

To apply the word "Natural" to behaviour is even more ridiculous: It is in our nature to nurture behaviour we deem natural. (Sorry, sometimes words seem to beg me to play on them in the silliest ways...)

Etymology Online isn't much more helpful, either...

The word is open to interpretation, i'm afraid, but anyone who uses the word "unnatural" to reinforce their bigotry should be slapped.
 
 
Proinsias
23:28 / 06.08.08
HCE:

Not snippy at all. I do see your point, it's just I also see a big fuzzy bit in the middle.

Do you want to make a case that everything that exists is natural, and only imaginary or fictional things can be unnatural or supernatural?

No. I think I want to make a case that shows the scale between the natural and the unnatural as rather pointless. I don't see how something which is supernatural can be equated with unnatural, to use an example above it's like substituting evil with supergood as it's less offensive.
 
 
Baroness von Lenska
02:57 / 09.08.08
Hey! Fantastic to read this thread. Life things have been keeping me from going through it until now.

AAR, I rather like your suggestion of using "sur-natural" to avoid judgment, but I think that that would be limited to artifacts or cultures. What kinds of things would you imagine being sur-natural?

Mirror, I'm still not sure where we're clashing, because when you say, "there is no such thing as a "strong" environment, merely a dynamic equilibrium." that is basically what I mean when I'm using "natural." I'm not counting extinctions, or disasters or diseases or anything that negatively impacts an environment or biodiversity as "unnatural," but only things that consciously choose actions that ultimately (usually consciously unintended) negatively affect an environment and biodiversity. Like, say there's a remote tribe somewhere who hunt specifically a kind of mammoth-like animal. Nearly all of the tribe's food, clothing, shelter and tools come from this animal. And let's say they get so good at hunting that they no longer have to worry about immediate needs, and they start hunting for pleasure until the mammoth-things are extinct or nearly extinct. A species of flea that preyed on the mammoths goes down with them, which knocks out a species of bird that ate the fleas which means the cute little bird-hunting foxes... Well, you get the idea. Our dear little tribe is now very hungry and very cold. Ultimately, hunting out of pleasure was a very stupid thing to do in the long run, and it's done only because the tribesmen could; the action is totally dependent on willful ignorance and being drunk on the power of their technological sophistication. That is the sort of thing underlying what I mean by "unnatural," but it goes much deeper and is difficult to explain clearly.

I just want to clarify that when I say "unnatural," I don't mean "separate from nature," but something closer to "against nature." There's an element of intention that runs counter to the world, species and self. "Anti-natural" might be better for describing my own "unnatural," but somehow that just sounds even more judgmental to me.
 
 
Baroness von Lenska
03:00 / 09.08.08
Rereading some of the comments on "supernatural," would that be the kinds of things described as "sur-natural?" Because if so, I think I really like that, for a number of reasons.
 
 
museum in time, tiger in space
01:08 / 10.08.08
In terms of language, it seems to me that the concept of the 'un-natural' arises in language from the time before the formulation of the theory of evolution.

If you accept the notion of a creator, and mankind being separated from the animal kingdom, then in my mind, it is perfectly reasonable to categorise things as to natural and un-natural. If you are postulating that every living being is created from a divine design then any deviation from that design can be seen as negative.


The Christian view of what is 'natural' is a bit more complicated than that though, isn't it? For a start, the word is most often used to refer to human nature, and even then there isn't always a clear distinction being made between 'natural' and 'unnatural'. Aquinas, for example, was interested in the idea of connaturality - the way that two things can be related through their natures (an appetite and the being that has that appetite, for instance). What was connatural for a particular individual was not set in stone; it could change. From this article:

St. Thomas says that something can be connatural to a being insofar as it becomes natural through habituation, because "custom is a second nature." What he has in mind here is the way that habits and customs -- and, at another level, divine graces -- fill in the blanks, so to speak, which the generalities of nature leave undetermined ...

There are all sorts of varieties of second-nature connaturality, for example the connaturality of the lover with the beloved, whereby our nature adapts itself to the thing which, or to the person whom, we love ...

Certain aspects of second nature -- acquired habits or habitual graces -- cooperate with our nature in the sense of completing or perfecting it.


I know there are people on the board who know a great deal more about theology that I do - it would be great if someone could explain this a bit more. I don't know, for example, how influential an idea it has been in theological terms.

Something else that might be important here is the idea of 'fallen nature'. Again, this is usually used to refer to human nature; however, I have come across the idea that the growing tendency in the 18th and 19th centuries was in part a reaction against the concept of 'fallen nature'. In Declaring Independence: Jefferson, Natural Language & the Culture of Performance, Jay Fliegelman writes:

In his 1775 Journals, the itinerant Quaker John Woolman describes a crisis of conscience that sheds light on the new definition of "unnatural", a crisis occasioned by wearing "garments dyed with dye hurtful to them" ... In this episode sin itself becomes the act of denaturing things so that they can no longer be seen for what they are. Detached from a Christian metaphysics that defined the natural as fallen, purity becomes identified with the natural.
 
  
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