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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

BOOK CLUB: Illuminatus!

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09:25 / 02.10.01

quote:Originally posted by ephemerat:
Philosophy, numerology, ontological riffs, the occult, conspiracy theories, lots of lurid sex, plenty of drugs, civil disobedience, a rock festival and an army of zombie Nazis! I mean, what more do you want?

Yeah, totally.

Why didn't i think of saying that?

Jack The Bodiless

19:29 / 02.10.01

L'esprit d'escalier, my friend...

00:12 / 03.10.01

the spirit of the stairs?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

00:25 / 03.10.01

quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
the spirit of the stairs?

No, me neither...

but still, c'est la vie.

01:40 / 04.10.01

I just think it's meant to knock you out of your comfort-space...i read it on a train from berlin to munich in the GLORIOUS spring of 1997...suffering from my first hangover, wandering foreign lands freely, it really affected me at the time...i read Umberto Eco's Foucault's Pendulum right afterwards, and found them to be analogous and equally well crafted works-add Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace and you've got a 20th century lit class...RAW and Shea are squarely American, firmly 20th Century comedic geniuses, and laughter is their secret. i guess. i really liked Schrodinger's cat; it led directly to Michio Kaku, Superstring theory and an interest in Physics i, as a linguist, didn't know i had.
b

17:22 / 09.10.01

I read it while I was on holiday. Took me ages. I'm not the fastest of readers. I enjoyed it and hated it.
The sex wasn't as good as it said on the backcover. The fnords were good. The numerology stuff was quite cute. I am sure I missed so much stuff cos it was so big and so many ideas were thrown all over the place.
It must have been a good laugh to write.

18:42 / 09.10.01

quote:Jb Again wrote:
Anyone here claim themselves as Discordian?

I do. I got ordained before I every heard of the Illuminatus book. The Principia is what got me hooked.

09:16 / 12.10.01

Kegboy: Are you from Canadia?

09:25 / 12.10.01

Canadia? Nope....but I am from Canada. Why?

09:25 / 12.10.01

I think, as many other posts seem to point out, that Illuminatus works best as an introductory (dare I say initiatory) text.

I read it in my late teens and I can say it changed a lot about my life. Not only in the sense that it got me interested in weird stuff, but also it really affected my world-view, personal values and philosophy. It put me on a different path, so to speak. Many of the things that I've been into since, including the Invisibles, would not have attracted me before this. The way that I think and approach life now would've seemed strange to me before. This, combined with the fact that I discovered it through a chain of synchonicities that convinced me that I had to read it, still endows it with a certain sanctity in my mind.

But, after trying to reread bits of it recently, I do agree that as a piece of fiction it is not particularly easy or fascinating to read. I don't think I would enjoy it as much today, might not even finish it. But that's really because, like most people here, I don't need to read it now. I have moved on to other things, it has served its function.(I use it for bibliomancy sometimes though).

I do agree that Masks of the Illuminati is a much better stand-alone literary work, though.

Oh, and I do think of myself as a Discordian. Maybe not as much as during the mid-90's, in the glory days of the Rainbo Cabal, when I had a holy name with about a dozen titles, but I still agree with its basic principles, and I still think it's cool to say you're a Discordian.

[ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Gus ]

11:22 / 12.10.01

Well I put Discordian on my census form so i guess it's official.

I'm not entirely happy with their creed, but then if i was I probably wouldn't be one anymore..

..I choose it over most other religions anyway.

18:16 / 15.10.01

I'm with those that think it's really interesting that so many people are asking questions about "what they were trying to do with the work." Tip, it really shouldn't be taken that seriously.

I think the problem is that it did change a lot of people's mind sets. But, not because of any special knowledge that's in it, or anything like that. But, because they were waiting for something to hit them over the head. And that happened to be the thing that did it. It's got a cult following that's so strong that as soon as you start getting into this shit, you start hearing about it.
I bet similarities can be found between Illuminatus (esspecially in the 70's and 80's) and Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn. People freak over it, and blame it for their mind being expanded. When all it did was provide enough of a jarring, to get people to think a little differently, and then THEY expanded their minds.

For those who still want the book to have meaning. I've heard RAW refer to it as "what if all the conspiracy theories were true?" So, it's supposed to be convoluted, and not make much fucking sense. You ever tried to talk to conspiracy nuts?

Finally, the enjoyment level of the book is direct proportional to how little you know about the book. If you've heard everyone you know tell you how great it is, then it's worthless. If you randomly pick it up on a shelf because you think the cover is cool or something, you'll enjoy it more. In my opinion.

On another thread. Did RAW or Shea come up with fnord on thier own? Everything else is just public knowledge stuff. Discordianism had existed for sometime by then. 5 comes from Discordianism. And 23 comes from Burrough's '23 enigma.' Which Illuminatus shoved into the Discordian mythos. So, I'm assuming fnord was someone else's idea. Anyone know who?

Professor Silly

13:54 / 31.10.01

I'm a relative newby here, so I'm only just now throwing in my 23 cents here.

I read this book in the early '90s, around about the time I was saturating my body with tremendous amounts of acid. This book is every bit as much of a spell as the invisibles--although in a more subtle manner! The seeds it will plant might take years to break the surface.

Because it blends truth into the absurd fiction, it's hard to tell which is which. For example, when I read it originally I though Assan-i-Sabah was a fiction...same deal with R. Buckminster Fuller. Over the next few years names and sychronicities kept popping up, to shake my perception of reality to its foundations.

Since then, I've become a Master Magician, and I must say that unless one has a firm understanding of Kabballa, Sufi symbolism, and Korzybski's non-Aristotelian linguistics., one won't understand all of the information being shoveled into the noggin.

In summery, and in order of ease for the reader...Invisibles is way more accessible for the average young reader than Illuminatus!...but Crowley makes Illuminatus! seem like Dr. Suess. Give the Book of Lies a spin if you don't believe me.

Professor Silly

14:08 / 31.10.01

P.S.

Did anyone notice the similarity of ending in Illuminatus! and Invisibles???

In the former, Hagbard Celine is revealed as the fifth member of the Illuminati--they control both sides of the equation, so the outcome is never in doubt--freedom will prevail.
In the latter, Mr. Six meets with the secret chief of the opposing order, who turns out to be the (praeter-human intelligence the) Harlequin. Again, both sides of the conflict are divisions of the same beast, so the outcome is never really in doubt. As mentioned in the story, everyone gets what they want, even the "bad" guys.

Finally, I'd like to paraphrase Hagbard: There is only ever one real Illuminati, and its current name is A.'.A.'.

It's true: You may fight them all you want--you will still join up in the end...to the face most comfortable at that time/place....

15:32 / 01.11.01

What I've noticed about the people who are slagging Illuminatus is that they are failing to put the book within its historical context. When this book was written nearly all the ideas within it were new. Not too many people had ever heard of the World as Book Theory, Discorianism, Eris, sex magick, multiple subjective storylines etc. The book almost from the start tells you that it is a huge shaggy dog story (one in which the joke is all in the elaborate setup with a weak punchline).

When I read this book years ago it blew my mind, it still blows my mind because much of it is still relevant today. It is a great launching pad to the R.A.W. material, the Leary Material and yes the Invisibles. I suggest everyone read this book and take it for what it is. Remember, nothing is true and everything is permissible. Woe to anyone who takes the secrets revealed in this book seriously and practices them dilligently. Eris can really be a bitch when she fucks up your life instead of your neighbors.

Burning Man Mark

22:40 / 01.11.01

23:19 / 22.11.01

The more you look for it the more you find it.

This book started me looking at things that have led me to places like this site. Read through all Wilson's stuff (or as much as you can find) and you'll suddenly find yourelf finding 23 everywhere and that everything you do is linked to everything else you do...
And then you'll realise that it's because you have read the book. Ah. But then you think was my life like that before but I didn't notice? Then you think yes, but then I didn't care, so...
The more I started to look for it the more I found it.

The key to getting this point is to read the whole book and then go back to the beginning and see how many 23s you suddenly spot. Ah. So they were there all the time but I wasn't looking for them so was the fact that they were there important? Is this a big conspiracy by numerologists or is it a random number? Try choosing another totally arbitrary number and looking for that for sometime and see what happens.
I noticed this the first time after I took acid. Suddenly I was seeing the world in a different way, everything seemed superimposed and (due to my love of films) everything in my life started getting more filmic, even to the extent that scenes in my life could have come from film scripts. I could almost feel I was about to stray behind the scenery and trip over the camera rails and I asked "Was life like this before but I didn't notice or does the world look like this because of the acid, or have I been shown a new way of looking at the world or..." This book starts you asking questions like this in the same way that taking acid did for me. Is this a good thing? Probably, or you might not be posting at this site, maybe.
Just a thought.

Oh yeah, and never trust a man whose initials are HC. (Did anyone else spot the major character that apllies to before it was pointed out at Ingolstadt?)

Our Lady of The Two Towers

12:21 / 23.11.01

I must be the exception that proves the rule, I've looked around for several years and seen no great occurences of 23, beyong a bicycle number plate and a few other things. But then, I can't see the fnords either.

14:44 / 23.11.01

Originally posted ny Knight'sMove:

...you'll suddenly find yourelf finding 23 everywhere

You waited until today to post this delibarately, didn't you?

22:51 / 24.11.01

Oh shit, you're right.

Sorry, I'd actually missed the significance of the date and it was just that I had only just discovered this thread. I suppose it fits a whole Jungian synchronicity thing in that the day I found it was the 23rd...or not, perhaps it was just "coincidance". See Balbo's classic comment in Foucault's Pendulum about everything must be connected or it's not proper Hermeticism; or alternatively Fleming's classic line in Goldfinger: Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

17:22 / 29.11.01

Ended up at Wil Wheaton dot com and found not only disturbing hints that he's in the next Star Trek film but the fact that he was putting up 'Illuminatis!' as his must-read book...

07:14 / 30.11.01

quote:Originally posted by Knight's Move:
Oh shit, you're right. Sorry, I'd actually missed the significance of the date and it was just that I had only just discovered this thread. I suppose it fits a whole Jungian synchronicity thing in that the day I found it was the 23rd...or not, perhaps it was just "coincidance".

Member 109 and I were sitting in a pub on this day when I discovered a discarded platform pass. I instantly noticed that the date was 23 and the ticket had been bought at 23:23. (We've both read Illuminatus! so it was, at least, amusing). It happens a lot. And that's kinda the point: I like to be reminded that we will tend to perceive what we wish or intend to perceive.

Reminds me not to be such a miserable bastard all the time.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

17:26 / 30.11.01

quote:Originally posted by kegboy:
The Principia is what got me hooked.

Where did you find it? I just discovered a copy at the begging of the semester. A friend of mine had it, and I couldn't believe it was real. Amazing. I still can't find a place that has a copy, though.

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:33 / 01.12.01

It's all over the place on the Net...
and
Here at Amazon.co.uk
or
Here at Amazon.com

01:52 / 04.12.01

I didnt find it..It found me !!!

15:07 / 04.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Johnny the fugitive:

Where did you find it? I just discovered a copy at the begging of the semester. A friend of mine had it, and I couldn't believe it was real. Amazing. I still can't find a place that has a copy, though.

Try here

And on a similiar topic. Freaked me out when a friend announced he was involved with a production of The King In Yellow, only a month or two after I had finished reading Masks Of The Illuminati.

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: I Am ]

11:44 / 03.05.02

I'm so glad there's a topic for this - I'm reading it for the first time now and I'm enjoying it very much only about a third the way through but I'll be back when I've finished it.

16:52 / 03.05.02

I originally started reading it 10 years ago today!!!! (im hoping to finnish it soon

)

So its my illuminiversary to day!

19:42 / 26.05.02

One of the biggest problems with RAW as a novelist (his non-fiction isn't so bad for this) is his obvious plagerism. Both Illuminatus and Schroedingers Cat have long sections of Joycian or Burroughsian writing, without the danger or innovation of either.

And it has to be noted that Fluffing The Ending isn't at all uncommon in successful novels. The chance of a concise ending seems to be inversely proportional to the size of the book.

I did like it though, especially Hagbard Celine, and the stuff about Lovecraft.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

11:46 / 27.05.02

I read it again over the last few months, and what struck me about it was how much of it was a product of its times...all the references to late 60's and early 70's concerns. As I read it, I couldn't help thinking that in a perfect world the book would be updated with the current political references every ten years or so.

Or was it just at that time that the general public (well, the reading public anyway) would want such overt political references in their fiction?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

13:57 / 27.05.02

I think it's as much that Wilson and Shea lived through a number of those experiences, Wilson was definitely into the counter-culture. But fiction has always been political hasn't it? What about things like 'Gulliver's Travels' or 'The Crucible'?

16:47 / 27.05.02

I think Burning Man is right on the money, as is Hong Kong. You can't create a novel, a movie, etc., that's not a product of it's times. And it's true that a lot of ground covered in Illuminatus is splattered all over bookstores and the intenet...NOW. In the early 70s, this was not the case.

For that matter, the book was still an introduction to a lot of these things for many of us. As Joe Mainstream Guy with a minor interest in the paranormal, I certainly wouldn't have ended up HERE if I hadn't read Illuminatus in my mid-20s. I honestly read most of it laughing out loud that they could make such silly things up, and only later found out that Discordianism, for example, was real. Doors began to open.

As for earlier criticisms here, well...Yeah, it went on for a LONG time, and yes, it did seem to promise some sort of Big Truth right up front and never spelled it out. Instead, it threw a bunch of seemingly random shit at you and let you concoct a meaning. Which is what Wilson's nonfiction stuff is really heavy on. Dig? Creating reality out of a sea of unrelated cognitions...I think one of the real heroes is a very minor character who has a good deal to say during the climax, but who appears so infrequently I can't even remember their name, I'll have to go look it up. Wouldn't want to throw a spoiler in for new readers, anyway.

Just one interpretation, of which there can be an endless number, and that's the point.

Anyway, it was FUN, and that's FNORD the whole point, isn't it?

00:04 / 28.05.02

I couldn't help thinking that in a perfect world the book would be updated with the current political references every ten years or so.

jesus...really?... i think that "perfect world" was best described by George Orwell.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

01:27 / 28.05.02

Geez, I hope I didn't come across like I was advocating changing history, just that all the stuff about Nixon seems so hopelessly out of date that a lot of impact the books had has faded. Kind of like watching the original Saturday Night Live without known any of the historical references.

17:46 / 28.05.02

The sex scenes are awful, though.

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