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George Carlin, 71.

 
  

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Char Aina
05:44 / 28.06.08
Actually, I'm talking shite. It's not that rare. Just rare enough to be cool when it happens. Funny and agreeable are massively influenced by each other, albeit not uniformly.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
17:56 / 09.07.08
Both your reading comprehension skills and your knowledge of American foreign policy in the 1990s are woefully lacking.

No, they're not. Firstly, you've taken one comment out of the Carlin interview completely out of context and attacked it out of proportion to the comment made, so it's your reading comprehensions skills that are embarrassing you. Carlin explains in the interview that he fundamentally disagrees with the idea that we can fix the issues in Western society ("if you believe there's a solution, you're part of the problem"), and basically that he's "contemptuous of" society:-

"Well, they say, "If you scratch a cynic, underneath you'll find a disappointed idealist." So I would imagine there's some little flame, however weak, that still burns, but I know time is against my seeing that. I think this world would need a long time, maybe a thousand years, to evolve to what may be a golden age, and in the meantime, there are all these very small, parochial struggles between peoples of different language and color and arbitrary political and national boundaries. And my understanding of it is that there is no hope, because I think we're locked in by commerce. The whole idea of the pursuit of goods and possessions has completely corrupted the human experience, along with religion, which I think limits the intellect. So with those two things in place as firmly as they are, I don't see any hope for getting around them short of some sort of interesting cataclysm. So I root for a cataclysm, for its own sake, just as entertainment. I don't even care if it has a good result. We're circling the drain, and I just like seeing the circles get faster and shorter all the time."

There's a whole host of things you can attack in that, but I wouldn't consider it a valuable use of your time. It's probable he's not being entirely serious, or is being interviewed in character, much like a WWE wrestler would have been a few years ago.

Secondly, My Mom Thinks I'm Cool was speculating on what Carlin might have meant by his remarks, and doing a better job with it than you, given that ze appears to have read the entire interview and not skimmed to the bit that mentioned Bush and voting. Ze used words like "might" and "seemed like". Speculative words. So taking hir to task over hir knowledge of American foreign policy in the '90s when ze didn't even provide a perspective on that is trollish.

Thirdly, you really are a rude little dick sometimes, aren't you?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:54 / 09.07.08
When I choose to be. And sometimes by accident. It's always nice to be reminded of what a dick I can be by people who have never made the mistake of being inappropriately fighty on the board, of course... But fair enough. Apologies to My Mom Thinks I'm Cool for the tone. For that whole post, really. It's not what I should have said.

Despite that... Look, of course I've read the whole interview. And it seems perfectly clear to me, in that context, what Carlin is saying in response to that particular question. It was hardly an uncommon view at the time - or indeed, for some time after Bush's election. It will probably be dredged up again in time for the McCain/Obama face-off. It contains elements of truth: the Democratic candidate tends to much closer to the Republican candidate than either would like to admit, and there are issues with corporate power and popular culture that one needs to be aware of. However, it is my opinion that however common it may have been in 1999, it was a huge mistake to think that it wasn't worth voting against Bush because the danger of a Bush administration bringing fascism to America was a) slighter than the danger of sneakers and Michael Jordan t-shirts playing a part in doing so, and/or b) not so great as to be worth sullying oneself by taking part in a broken/ineffectual/corrupt electoral system. I can't see any way around that.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:00 / 09.07.08
Anyway. This seems another clear sign from the gods that hanging around is bad for me, bad for the party, and bad for the American people. What's most depressing is the idea of being called little, after years of considering myself one of the big beasts, the big guns. Time to catch that late flight, I think...
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:15 / 10.07.08
to be fair, I am woefully uninformed about american foreign policy. I'm often pretty embarrassed by what I learn here and elsewhere.

also, I did apparently misread flyboy's post pretty badly. I thought "whatever Carlin is on about" meant "I don't understand what Carlin is on about", rather than "of course I know exactly what Carlin is on about, it was a very popular view at the time". instead, that phrase apparently was only there to lead into the footnote, in which Flyboy infers something, and then claims not to want to actually infer it.

anyway, thanks for the apology, and sorry Barbelith isn't working out well for you these days.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:04 / 10.07.08
(Off-Thread)(Sorry)
Flyboy, Milton, Tamara,
People are reactionary, and by people, I mean me. Personally I find that it takes a little while to "get you", and even then, maybe I still don't...
It seems that you get frustrated easily when people don't get you or don't quite live up to your standards of writing and/or intelligence.
All I can say is: Have patience. People seem to need to walk on egg-shells here. This will pass. Or it won't. Either way, I still think that it's necessary to have some long-timers like you around.
Maybe Barbelith is in the midst of it's death rattle... I think you should reconsider staying until the bitter end.
JMHO
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:07 / 10.07.08
FYI, he's scrambled his password. Suit killed by falling tree! Login killed by irony!
 
 
_Boboss
21:40 / 10.07.08
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YwEMxYggoKQ
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:01 / 10.07.08
Score for the generic Brightonian! I'm afraid that since you all did the superhero name thing you haven't proved distinct enough to be identifiable, but, you know, I'm sure whichever one you are is awfully witty.
 
 
_Boboss
22:21 / 10.07.08
oh wow, i'm crushed. you used to be a lot better at this.
 
 
HCE
22:27 / 10.07.08
Be silent, maggot.

If others of you genuinely think that flyboy is the problem -- flyboy who, however acerbic his style, at least posted quality content both in the good old days and recently, comedic (von Mises) and critical (his comments on the Wire) -- then you deserve the miserable shell of a place you've got now. Click on 'recently updated threads' and weep.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:30 / 10.07.08
I used to care more, as-it-turns-out-Gumbitch. But, really, you must be in your thirties now. If there was going to be much improvement, it would probably have manifested by now. Since you and your chums are now too old and married actually to tug each other off, barring some sort of mid-life reexamination of priorities the Internet is condemned to witness the spunky-handed high-fiving and the beautiful palm babies it produces.
 
 
_Boboss
22:31 / 10.07.08
whatever dungeon master.

seriously though - bullshit. a net negative, far as these things can('t) be measured, for years now.
 
 
Tsuga
22:35 / 10.07.08
I'm disappointed Flyboy's gone, personally; even if he was pretty flinty sometimes, or even dickish, at least he cared enough when posting to usually try. I wish I could say as much for myself.
Life goes on. So does the board, kind of.
 
 
iamus
22:36 / 10.07.08
Be silent, maggot....

Was that an intentional post style in response to THOR!? Cause that actually sounded like a supervillain monologue.

Personally I don't think Flyboy had to go. Often, I used to find him very interesting, but increasing had found myself standing on the other side of the line. I wanted to like him, but sometimes he made it very hard for me indeed.

Wish you luck anyway, man. Hope everything works out.
 
 
_Boboss
22:37 / 10.07.08
Since you and your chums are now too old and married actually to tug each other off, barring some sort of mid-life reexamination of priorities the Internet is condemned to witness the spunky-handed high-fiving and the beautiful palm babies it produces.

what on earth are you talking about? so weird. prorities? don't care as much as you used to? seriously, keep going. things much better at the foot of the slippery slope.
 
 
iamus
22:39 / 10.07.08
Have to say man, I agree.

That's a bit off, and not really what I'd expect from you.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:39 / 10.07.08
Prorities?
 
 
Mug Chum
22:49 / 10.07.08
Did Flyboy really killed his suit? I thought Haus was joking up there.
 
 
iamus
22:52 / 10.07.08
Think so, dude. He's said he was doing it before and didn't, but i think he actually has this time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:00 / 10.07.08
Well, iamus, posssibly you missed the part where Gumbitch posted a video of "Celebration" when Flyboy was run off Barbelith. It's just a touch up there. In that light, mentioning the awkward rugby-club homosociality that Barbelith has been made to witness from the Brighton posse does not seem entirely inapt, especially as it has often centred around such celebrations of douchery - calling women fat or hysterical, Glennish picture trolling, obscene name changes and so on.

It's very flattering that you expect better of me, but it would be nice if people expected better of everyone once in a while.
 
 
iamus
23:13 / 10.07.08
No, I saw the video. Obviously THOR! has a bit more history with the boy Fly than I do, and has felt wronged enough in the past to elicit that reaction. I daresay Flyboy may have reacted similarly had the tables been turned. Who knows? Who cares? Only leads to a lot of hypothetical fighting. I don't think anyone comes away clean in grand run of things.

I'm sorry, I just thought that post was very playground. You can be flattered that I'd expect better of you (it would be nice if you were) but I feel that post really sits at odds with the particularly high standards I've seen from you in the past. That's all.
 
 
iamus
23:18 / 10.07.08
And Flyboy wasn't run off Barbelith. He made a choice himself after realising it wasn't doing him any good. It was really only an observation from Jack the Bodiless that tipped it (with many other factors I can't comment on, so perhaps there's more to it).
 
 
Char Aina
23:19 / 10.07.08
I thought it was fitting tribute. I can imagine Flyboy posting similarly for someone's departure.

That said, I don't see the connection between celebrating someone's departure and the behaviour described in your post. Could you explain it a bit more?


...and Flyboy was hardly 'run off'. He's been talking about leaving for ages. He finally left. I can see it might well be a shame to see him go if he was a friend to you, but it does seem like he wanted it at least as much as THOR did.
 
 
Char Aina
23:20 / 10.07.08
sorry, cross posts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:24 / 10.07.08
I'm not sure what you imagine might have happened in a different universe had something totally different happened is entirely relevant, though, iamus. If "who knows" and "who cares" are questions expecting the answer "nobody", then why are you bringing this situation in as a justification in the first place?

You're probably right, though. The lower echelons of the Brighton posse do tend to lower the level of my discourse, because, like threads, people tend to inspire responses at their starting level.

Ah, and in the interpost Life Critic has also posted to imagine what Flyboy might have done if the universe had followed a totally different path and everything had happened differently. I just don't see the profit in this speculation. In another universe, we are all carp, after all.

On the plus side, those who have departed can always apply for new logins. All that is old might be new again. Things of that nature.
 
 
iamus
23:34 / 10.07.08
If "who knows" and "who cares" are questions expecting the answer "nobody", then why are you bringing this situation in as a justification in the first place?

Because I don't believe there's a justification at all. People do shit to each other and it goes back and forth for ages, getting bigger with every slight like a big diarrhoea snowball. I've seen Flyboy act vile to the "Brighton Posse", and I've seen them do the same back. That's why I don't know. That's why I don't care. It's all a load of fucking drama.

You're probably right, though. The Brighton posse do tend to lower the level of my discourse, because, like threads, people tend to inspire responses at their starting level.

Well man, life's a process of conscious co-creation. An action may elicit a response, but both parties have a completely equal hand in the outcome.

Whole thing's messier than it ought to be. Just words on a page, at the end of the day,
 
 
Char Aina
23:37 / 10.07.08
No, good point. I don't know what Flyboy would do for certain, and my opinion is not something you have to care about. It certainly holds no empirical weight as a measure of how things are, unless what you want to know is "what does Life Critic think".

Not caring what I think is surely the default. Probably the safest bet too.

I do gain some pleasure from knowing I'm not alone in my own opinion, so I thank iamus for sharing his.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
23:40 / 10.07.08
Flyboy spent the past few weeks hanging around bitching about how shit everyone was on a board that he couldn't actually muster the strength of will to leave himself. The self-loathing was palpable, and the constant shrill attacks on everyone around him were getting pretty tiresome. So goodbye and good luck to him basically. Best for him, best for the board in general probably.
 
 
iamus
23:42 / 10.07.08
I've got to say I agree.
 
 
Char Aina
23:47 / 10.07.08
To be honest, though, I would rather you had answered my question. I gave my opinion of the video post, and the reason behind that. I don't see what relevance that need have beyond being my opinion regarding the video, and my reason for that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:56 / 10.07.08
Well man, life's a process of conscious co-creation. An action may elicit a response, but both parties have a completely equal hand in the outcome.

With respect, old chap, that's nonsense. I never mind-controlled you to tell me that I must have "deep-seated issues", for example, or forced you to go off quarter-cocked during Wifegate. Nor, I admit happily, was I compelled to mention the Brighton posse's use of Barbelith as the rugby club showers. If Newcastle United beat Swindon town 9-0, the two teams have both been involved in the match, but they have not been equal participants in the match. The soil does not play an equal role in its ultimate fate as a statue. The same could be said of many other creative situations.

Life critic - I didn't answer your question because I had already answered it.

In that light, mentioning the awkward rugby-club homosociality that Barbelith has been made to witness from the Brighton posse does not seem entirely inapt, especially as it has often centred around such celebrations of douchery - calling women fat or hysterical, Glennish picture trolling, obscene name changes and so on.

Imagining what Flyboy might have done in Universe X had Gumbitch decided that he just couldn't take any more remains, as far as I can tell, irrelevant.
 
 
iamus
00:07 / 11.07.08
With respect, old chap, that's nonsense. I never mind-controlled you to tell me that I must have "deep-seated issues", for example, or forced you to go off quarter-cocked during Wifegate.

Now see, man. That's what I'm talking about. There's no need to bring up single lines of the few altercations I've had with you in years past. That was a long time ago and completely besides the point. I sent you a PM explaining, well, pretty much exactly this. That I think we both behaved badly and that the situation should never have really happened. I never got a reply though, so I have no way of knowing if you read it or not.

I'm sorry, but I'm really not interested in that kind of conversation, dude.

Of course you never mind-controlled me. I told you my behaviour wasn't the best, but it takes two to have an argument and I guess we were both spoiling. Somebody might say something to rile you. That doesn't mean you have to react. If you're sure in yourself that you're right, what's the point of going on? From personal experience, the only justification I could ever come up with was that I was trying to convince others that my point was the one to rally behind. Kind of tired of that now.

Things tend to work best for me when I go under the assumption that anyone worth convincing already sees what's going on, the one's that don't, don't. It's not up to me to make their minds for them.
 
 
Char Aina
00:13 / 11.07.08
Commenting on the video post is relevant, as the video had been posted and discussed. It remains, as ever, my opinion. What else should it be?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:18 / 11.07.08
I told you my behaviour wasn't the best, but it takes two to have an argument and I guess we were both spoiling.

Well, no. I was simply reacting to having been misrepresented. This is the thing, iamus - the peace and love rhetoric is great, but your approach to dealing with people who aren't behaving as you would is consistently to pathologise them, often in an impolite or contemptuous way. We don't have to go back to the distant past to see this - instead of complaining like a crotchety old thing who's picking fights 'cause it's just shamed itself, for example, to describe the Barbelith that doesn't behave the way you want it to. It's just not a nice way to deal with people, you know?

The idea that if you are confident that you are in the right you should not say anything is interesting, but I think there's a fairly proud tradition of people standing up for what they believe is right, be that equality, the protection of minorities from persecution or the relative quality of New and Old Trek. That energy may at times be misplaced, but I don't think that invalidates the principle. These ventures into the ethical philosophy of argument, I think, are not serving you well.

Life Critic - I don't follow. I don't think I mentioned commenting on the video post. I mentioned commenting on an imaginary scenario where Gumbitch left Barbelith and Flyboy behaved douchily at the departure of somebody who, tis being an imaginary scenario, had invested years in discussion, interaction and, latterly, gatekeeping the online community he no longer felt able to interact with.
 
  

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