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Wm Gibson and friends

 
  

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YNH
14:48 / 09.09.01
I saw this in the first line thread...

quote:OP by The Flyboy:
"They set a slamhound on Turner's tail in New Delhi, slotted it to his pheromones and the colour of his hair."
- you can tell Count Zero is a William Gibson novel from the get-go, because he's stuck two words together to make a new one...


I meant to, back when an English degree was the best idea I had, do an annotated Neuromancer for my dissertation. Now it's kind of a hobby that I haven't used enough paper for. Anyone else interested in hooking particular Gibson bits to their, er, influences?

ex: The watches in All Tomorrow's Parties are there 'cause he developed an eBay habit. And the title is yanked from the Velvet Underground.

Does anyone know Steely Dan well enough to point out all the refs in NM?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:18 / 10.09.01
I'd be interested in talking about Gibson, because I've just discovered him in the last few months (read Neuromancer, Count Zero and am 2/3rds of the way through Mona Lisa Overdrive). However I'm not sure how much use I'd be in doing annotation type-things... where to start?

One of the things I find fascinating about these books (Neuromancer in particular) is that reading them from the perspective of 2001, it's hard to tell how much stuff in there that rings true was a) already in existence/early phases and Gibson just researched it, b) speculated by Gibson and subsequently developed, or c) speculated by Gibson and subsequently developed deliberately by geeks who'd read Gibson.

Anyone know enough to clear up my muddled head?
 
 
YNH
22:01 / 10.09.01
1) Gibson researches by reading magazines: something like he never (or rarely) reads fiction when he's writing. Fashion stuff and maybe science rags, newspapers.

The corporate conglomeration stuff was just kicking into gear at the time. He wasn't the only one to predict outcomes, but popular fiction has a way of reaching people that Ben Bagdikian and Noam chomsky don't, y'know?

Primitive internet was already in existence for military and involved universities. VR got a boost from his vision. Temperfoam was developed by a Swedish company for Nasa: in use on the space shuttles at the time.

2) Stem-cell stuff, vat growing... talked about but not much available for research. I was studying genetic engineering in the late 80's and ethics was still the most exciting subject becuase next to nothing had actually been done.

3) A friend of mine is working on neural-electrical interfaces at UCLA. I'm almost certain that maybe half these people fall into: developed deliberately by geeks who'd read Gibson.

That's all I can come up with on an empty stomach. Oh, and I was thinking more shady-type annotations... links to Cornell, photos of Akihabara (sp?), song lyrics mentioned (was it Deep Purple in Idoru?), the figure of Jaron Lanier made out of clay in Virtual Light, the walled city in ATP...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:24 / 11.09.01
"Cornell?" asked Marly... or something like that.



Oh, what a terrible inexplicable sense of yearning it produces...

So, I finished Mona Lisa Overdrive last night. Hmmm. Bit of a "Where are you going now Doc? Back to the future?" "Nope - already been there!" ending, if you get my drift.
 
 
Pin
15:49 / 11.09.01
What order do the books go in?

Is it Neuromancer, Count Zero, Mona Lisa Overdrive, Burning Chrome? Or are Count Zero and Mona Lisa the other way around?

And is there any news about the film? And the computer game? I heard they were both in development...

And what order to the other books (Virtual Light, Idoru, All Tomorrow's Party's) go in?
 
 
MJ-12
16:08 / 11.09.01
events Burning Chrome precede the others
 
 
YNH
16:44 / 11.09.01
I have it somewhere, but I think it's BC, Johnny Mnemonic, NM, CZ, MOD...

The others, set elsewhere, go VL, Idoru, ATP.

The film has an official site, but I first saw it more than 2 years ago. I assume it's more than a little dead in the water. I'll pay dearly for the graphic novel or the Amiga computer game if anyone cares.

I'll try to get some links up tomorrow. Thanks for the Paris stuff, Flyboy. I've been to the Chicago exibit twice.
 
 
captain piss
18:39 / 11.09.01
Quote from Flyboy:
“One of the things I find fascinating about these books (Neuromancer in particular) is that reading them from the perspective of 2001, it's hard to tell how much stuff in there that rings true was a) already in existence/early phases and Gibson just researched it, b) speculated by Gibson and subsequently developed, or c) speculated by Gibson and subsequently developed deliberately by geeks who'd read Gibson.”


Interestingly, reading Count Zero and Neuromancer led to my decision to study electronics at uni, muddle-headed 16-year old stoner that I was. And the specialty I opted for was ‘bio-electronic’ interfaces, making electronics work with and mimic biology in various ways - I’ve spoken to a few engineers who read it when they were younger. Perhaps a sour discovery for some is Gibson’s oft-voiced disdain for geekdom, and I remember an interview in wired in 1993 when he seemed bemused at the attention from technologists and VR enthusiasts, saying that, while he admired these people’s obvious grasp of the science end, “they’d be hell to have dinner with”.
A lot of the stuff does seem prescient, and not just the groovy gadgets - I remember reading Mona Lisa Overdrive in 1993, when drum n bass was just starting to kick-off and noticing that people in the book listened to an electronic Afro-influenced music called ‘dub’ or something like that - and I thought ‘bloody hell’.
Not sure which technologies he was first on the block with - he was definitely first to coin the term ‘cyberspace’, imagining the internet as a huge, hallucinatory 3d virtual world - it would be good to see that done well in a film. The technology of neural interfaces had been thought of before but these stories brought it into sharper focus in people’s imaginations, I think.
There’s a fantastic bit in Count Zero when the character inserts one of these ‘biosoft’ chips into the socket behind his ear, without realising it’s actually intended for an AI user, not a human, and he’s subjected to a head-jarring rollercoaster of sensation and information. A lot of the imagery from these books seemed to really start to influence graphic design and popular culture in the early 90s, in everything from magazines like Mondo 2000 to rave flyers of the period, or videos from Future Sound of London.
But it’s anyone’s guess where that whole neon city, chrome-plated future vision came from - probably just an amplification of trends and currents in the 80s to a sensitive person - he said that seeing Blade Runner made him think that him and Ridley Scott were onto the same thing.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:56 / 12.09.01
While Gibsons Neuromancer coined the terms cyberpunk and cyberspace (among others) the credit should really go to Disneys TRON.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:56 / 12.09.01
Gibson definitely didn't coin the term cyberpunk. It was first used, in 1983, in a Bruce Bethke short story of the same name. Later that year the editor Gardner Duzois used it to describe the writers clustered around Bruce Sterling's "Cheap Truth" fanzine, including Gibson. But Gibson definitely didn't invent it, and I don't think it's even used in Neuromancer.

Cyberspace, on the other hand, was his coinage, at least as far as I know.

And yes, I am embarrassed to know all this.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:56 / 12.09.01
Don't be.

Only meant to imply that's when they began to be used commonly. I'm rather unaware of such nuances.

Didn't Videodrome come out slightly before Neuromancer? Zeitgeist.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
09:56 / 12.09.01
last i heard of the 'neuromancer' movie project, chris cunningham was being tipped to direct. now that would've been worth seeing...
 
 
YNH
09:56 / 12.09.01
Videodrome came out in '83. Neuromancer in '84. Bladerunner and Tron came out in '84.

I can't remember the page numbers, but Gibson describes "dub" music in Zion (the dreadhead space station where they transfer to the Marcus Garvey and hook up with Malcom.) Two good annotations right there.

Garvey's Ghost (Burning Spear) was released in '76. Kraftwerk, Throbbing Gristle, and Negativland had all released material by 1980. Gibson's just got a way of surfing trends.

Didn't the vision come from Tokyo? Coffin hotels, all neon lights, even the setting for the novel?
 
 
Molly Shortcake
09:56 / 12.09.01
Although I was too young to remember the international movie database says TRON came out in 1982. I think it's safe to say it had an influence on Gibson (or it's pure coincidence). Either way, the whole cyberspace look came from nightime cities lit up like Christmas trees.

You should all check out the TRON influenced PS2 cyberspace shooter/music game Rez by SEGA/UGA. It'll probably contain super trendy trance tracks. I'd rather have them take some chances with IDM and Electronic/Industrial thrown into the mix.

As a huge cyberpunk fan I'm almost ashamed to say I've only read (many) Gibson articles and interviews. He wrote a decent piece about Japan in last months Wired. The X-files episode he penned was complete ass. He even addmitted to being low-tech and knowing next to nothing about video games in interviews bout it. Are his books worth reading? (Stupid question?)

[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Turbo Shark ]
 
 
Pin
09:56 / 12.09.01
Neuromancer was written on a typewriter. I think he brought his first computer with the royalties.

Does anyone know of the magazines he read while writting? And what of the cyberpunk magazines that published fiction and articles? Still around? Please, let me feel a part of the fad. I wanna be cool...
 
 
Molly Shortcake
03:50 / 13.09.01
The German, avant garde, 'Industrial' group Einsturzende Neubauten (collapsing new buildings) have been around since 1980.

EBM founders Front 242 (arguably the first Techno group) had their first major release, Geography, in 83.

The Avant Garde electro mesh know as Skinny Puppy released their first EP in 84.

Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation was released in 81.

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Turbo Shark ]
 
 
Enamon
01:14 / 14.09.01
Study Guide for William Gibson: Neuromancer (1984)
 
 
YNH
04:16 / 14.09.01
Yah, I've seen that. Some good bits but also this: "In the operation called "Screaming Fist" (a typical karate film title) a team had been hired to destroy..." and much like it. "A typical karate film title" is kinda lazy and reads crap in that's prolly not there. But thanks.
 
 
Monkey Boy Z
04:42 / 14.09.01
They made a comic version of N. It got the look, but left out some of the choisest bits of writing.

My favorite thing is Meuromancer was the part where he's tlaking to the friendly AI, and they talk about how it feels like it has emotions, but it knows that that's just algorithms and stuff. Case feels that shadow shiver at the back of his neck, and I felt it too. Little invaders from mars invisible implant I see dead people flickers in the night, the floral circitry of the night city...

It's fair to say that Johnny Mnemonic takes place before the 'mancer trilogy, but the other stories, except for one, I think, could be in altogether different futuristic fictional universes that don't really need to be connected to the books.

Sure, he didn't make up the word, but who writes the histroy books? Gibson is widely credited with coining the term, get over it.

mbz
 
 
rizla mission
04:42 / 14.09.01
I've deliberately not read this thread because I too am just getting into Gibson (yeah, I know, I bit late considering my status as a complete SF-book freak) and don't want to be infected with spoilers.

I read Burning Chrome last month and can honestly say it's the best collection of SF stories I've ever read. Almost every story within it fucks your mind in a brand new way, and that's coming from someone who's been stuck in the Wilson/Dick/Morrison axis for years.

'Hinterlands' especially is absolutely,well, mindblowing.

It's convinced me to blow the last bit of last year's student loan on a brand new copy of Neuromancer, anyway .. am about to start it.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
01:52 / 15.09.01
get Storming the Reality Studio ed. Lawrence McCaffrey (sp?), a great anthology of cyberpunk nonfic, fic, and notes on the development of the genre. there was also an issue of the, um, was it the UIniversity of Missouri Journal of Literature devoted to cyberpunk that came out in the late 80s / early 90s.

gibson wrote an article in wired a year or two ago on the cover story "Is hollywood dead -- digital films" and was profiled way back in wired 1.2, which i hoarded all the way back then.
 
 
YNH
02:08 / 15.09.01
I think I tore the article out and chucked the rag. Storming the Reality Studio only ended up costing me morte money as I tracked down some of the source material (some of which I already had, but hey.) Pat Cadigan, though, was worth every sodding penny.
 
 
The Damned Yankee
22:42 / 17.09.01
Every once in a while, when I look up and see that the sky is "the color of television tuned to a dead channel", I wonder how close we are to Gibson's vision becoming reality.

Then I think that that wouldn't be so bad.
 
 
Enamon
23:38 / 17.09.01
Then the damned slamhounds get your ass.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
22:41 / 18.09.01
Tron may not be the first articulated cyberspace - there's this really trippy sceen in 2001 about 2/3 into the movie, some very cyberesque visuals.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:09 / 19.09.01
I've never liked Gibson's writing style - I find it clipped and difficult. I love his short stories though, weird huh? Sterling though and Pat Cadigan (the insulin pump in Synners if anyone's read it... yummy) and Neal Stephenson - I really get on with their writing in all its forms.
 
 
—| x |—
03:50 / 19.09.01
Apparently Gibson had only finished writing his book when he found himself at the movie theater to see TRON. He exclaimed to himself, "That's my book up there on the screen!" (obviously refering to his "cyberspace" concept, and not the plot of the movie), funny how things like that happen.

There is irony about people's responses to Gibson's books: he thought of himself as writing horror! He wanted to convey a sense of his own revulsion at such a bleak and desperate future. Instead, a bunch of people figure that such a future is to what we ought to aspire.

Damn good books though.
 
 
straylight
15:38 / 19.09.01
Ice Honkey: There are two Gibson X-Files episodes; the later, videogame centered one is a complete and embarassing tossoff, but the earlier ep, "Killswitch" I think it was called, was actually pretty fascinating. And 'twas complete with a faux-Molly kickass cyberbitch, making all the Lone Gunmen drool.

I think it's about time for a new Gibson novel, personally. I read a lot of scifi/fantasy as a kid and a teenager but didn't read Neuromancer until after college. Once I picked it up, though...I have a very distinct memory of reading it on a night flight into New York and finding all the patterns of light fascinating in a whole different way. And of being told I was antisocial because I wouldn't put the book down and hang out with my then-boyfriend's bandmates. And so on. I read all his books in a matter of weeks - all but one. I wouldn't read Idoru until I knew when the next book was coming out. I always want to know when I'm getting my next fix.

As if my username wasn't clue enough what a dork I am.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
18:15 / 19.09.01
Cyberpunk and new myth. A must read for any CP fan.

Condensed cyberpunk classics. Aeon argues why films like Batman, La Femme Nikita and Leon are cyberpunk. Damn, he's right. I like to figure this stuff out myself.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:55 / 21.09.01
Argh! I am so hooked. Meant to read something other than WG on holiday. Bought Burning Chrome at Gatwick.

I think it's my favourite. 'The Gernsback Continuum', and 'The Belonging Kind' in particular were revelations, because they're so different to his other stuff on one level (although you can see his obsession with bars and other drinking establishments in the latter...)

Oh, and every other story in there has something major going for it. 'Dogfight' is just completely fucking devastating though: as disturbing and nihilistic as any short story I've read... Mind you, happy endings are few and far between for WG it seems:

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

the one at the end of 'Johnny Mnemonic' seems forced, and don't we find out in Neuromancer that the Yakuza eventually wasted him, or am I getting Molly's boyfriends confused?

I can definitely see why some of his stuff could be considered horror. But it's not the horror of technology/body interface squick, so much as the horror of what human beings do to each other, using whatever means they can. Or what they leave undone...

The bit that got me hooked, in retrospect, that convinced me WG was more than just a shit-hot techhead, was the scene in Neuromancer where Case finds himself on the beach... Seared into the back of the brain, that one.

Question: is there any point at all in seeing the film of 'Johnny Mnemonic'?
 
 
YNH
09:55 / 21.09.01
Heaven's no, unless you're that hooked, of course: in which case you'll keep wondering and then do it anyway. More bad acting by Ice-T, shitty clumping of ideas from the new books and the old ones... the bridge from VL for example. Crappy Dolphin scenes nothing like you imagine while reading (no lo tech, see, all gloss.) Oh, and Molly, well, sucks. At least they changed her name (presumably so if NM ever got made she could be someone else... I hope.)

Anyone read "Hippie Hat Brain Parasite"? That one was so, uh, unlike his other stuff. It's in Semiotext(e) SF which truly rocks. It's got "We See Things Differently" in it as well... which, snce last week, has struck me as... um... jingoistic, unfriendly? Sexualizing and villifying the "oriental" other maybe. If it's not red white and blue, or maybe viridian, Sterling treats it like a rabid raccoon.
 
 
MJ-12
09:55 / 21.09.01
Molly had been changed because the film rights to neuromancer had been sold to some woman who, sanity-wise, has no small resemblance to 3-Jane
 
 
deletia
09:55 / 21.09.01
Umm...Gibson, Haraway, Lyotard, and Hank Henshaw, or whatever his name was?
 
 
covenant2001
09:55 / 21.09.01
Shoot me if I'm wrong (or set a vat grown ninja on my tail, whatever..), but I don't think anyone has mentioned his e only outpouring 'Agrippa' (unless I missed it earlier in the thread...)
 
 
Pin
09:55 / 21.09.01
Covenant, do you have a link?

And the new Gibson book is out in early next year.

And the Neuromancer film is blessed by Gibson, beng directed by the designer of A.I. (who pulled out cos Spielberg pissed him off and who's name I can't remember) and is soundtracked by Aphex Twin, who's worked with the director before. I'm assuming,d ue to Aphex's involvment, that it'll take fucking years to finish.

Any other cyberpunk books people can recomend?
 
  

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