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Racism & Cross-Cultural Magickal Systems

 
  

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Quantum
13:34 / 21.04.08
but the abuse(both physical and verbal) on account of my skin colour that I have suffered qualifies, I believe, as racist.

Well hopefully the enormous privileges that same skin provides soften the blow a little.
I sympathise with anyone getting abuse for the colour of their skin/cultural background/goth hair, in fact almost anyone getting abuse, but getting racist abuse stings a *lot* less if you're in the majority power-laden group. If someone calls me Honky I would feel perplexed rather than upset.
Racist abuse tends to be more one way than another, there's an asymmetry to be aware of.

The headshop has a lot of good stuff on this.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:47 / 21.04.08
I moved to South-East London about a year after the Stephen Lawrence verdict, do you think I got a tickertape parade? I got called names and spat on in the street by black Britons. I still do not consider this to be racism proper.
 
 
Char Aina
14:11 / 21.04.08
Well hopefully the enormous privileges that same skin provides soften the blow a little.
I sympathise with anyone getting abuse for the colour of their skin/cultural background/goth hair, in fact almost anyone getting abuse, but getting racist abuse stings a *lot* less if you're in the majority power-laden group. If someone calls me Honky I would feel perplexed rather than upset.


I don't understand. I think we are miscommunicating. I am saying racism exists in non-whites. Softening the blow is not the issue, neither is the sting of the thing.

FYI, a kicking still fucking hurts, no matter the context.

Racist abuse tends to be more one way than another, there's an asymmetry to be aware of.

Yes, there is.
 
 
Char Aina
14:14 / 21.04.08
I got called names and spat on in the street by black Britons. I still do not consider this to be racism proper.

What do you consider it? It seems 'unreasonable' and 'prejudice' both apply, so why is it not racism proper?

Is it racism-lite?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:20 / 21.04.08
I consider it to be abusive behaviour motivated wholly or partly by a sense of oppression and injustice. It was irrational only in that it was misdirected.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:26 / 21.04.08
I still do not consider this to be racism proper.

You were being judged for someone else's actions because of the colour of your skin. Even if you were understanding and sympathetic of their actions, their behaviour was racist. Even if white people make up the "ruling" class of England and have been able to historically act like imperial assholes, even if the black people who spit at you did so out of the frustration of being trod upon for generations, they were being racist.

But... The fact that you can say that you forgive the people who spit on you and called you names, and not even consider their actions racist, speaks largely in your favour (I can admire that), but not theirs, no matter how justified their frustration.
 
 
Char Aina
14:29 / 21.04.08
You were made responsible for the crimes of your percieved race, or assumed to be as bad as those who were responsible, and you were attacked. The attack was motivated by an attitude towards you determined racially, an attitude I would say was unreasonable.

We seem to agree on the paragraph above, so I don't understand why you don't define it as racism.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:30 / 21.04.08
I doubt the persons doing the bad behaviour towards Mordant were justifying it by a whole bunch of false-scientific theories about Mordant and Mordant's 'race' being inferior, or inherently dangerous - there was actually something which people like Mordant had actually done (crudely, killing Steven Lawrence and getting away with it) which, although Mordant didn't deserve the blame for it, constitutes an attack and makes the behaviour more akin to defense. Not nice, not acceptable, but still a kind of provoked defense.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:36 / 21.04.08
This was an area quite close to where Stephen Lawrence was murdered in a racist attack. His killers were never brought to justice, with the supposed "justice" system handling the case in a racist manner. Black people living in that area were frequently subjected to racist abuse by whites--I observed this on any number of occasions. In my workplace, racist jokes and comments made up much of people's everyday conversation, "humourous" racist material was circulated and left lying around on tables in the staffroom, and the one or two black employees were treated with suspicion and contempt. In this context I simply cannot bring myself to call the negative treatment I recieved "racist."
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:44 / 21.04.08
I will throw out the proposition that there were people in the crowd who did/do look down on white people as being inferior or inherently evil.
That's where my "Slap-in-the-face" comment came from: That the idea of Racial Superiority (Which we all agree is BS) is not solely in the domain of white psyche.
I would have argued otherwise until I had a conversation with a dude from Djibouti: He told me that if he brought me to his mother's house, she would be polite and may even offer me a glass of water because her religion demands it. Afterward she would throw the glass in the garbage rather than ever use it again, and then slap him for bringing an infidel into her house. It was this gentleman who explained to me that to say that a non-white cannot be racist is a white vanity. To think, as a white, that non-whites cannot think themselves superior is folly. All races have the same potential for stupidity, equally.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:51 / 21.04.08
I have said nothing about the potential for racism in non-white people. We're all humans, we all have these glitches in our wiring. What I'm saying is that in the context of white priviledge, it is simply meaningless to speak of non-white people as being racist against whites.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:53 / 21.04.08
BTW: While this is becoming a fascinating discussion on what constitutes racism, we're losing the Magickal element.
I'm just curious: Are there any non-white magickians posting on the boards? Would you ever embrace a traditionally "white" or "western" system of magick?
 
 
This Sunday
15:24 / 21.04.08
Well, I'm mixed racially, and clearly colonised to all hell, but still... your Eastern Hemisphere magicks confound me. Just a bit, but enough to know that without some intense divine revelation type event, say getting knocked off an ass and temporarily blinded, I probably won't convert over any time soon.

I feel a little bit of an idiot every time I post (or say aloud, when I'm talking to folks not here) that we haven't got gods, but people, or when I talk about practice vs ritual, but there are, I think, some fundamental differences in approach and perception that are made difficult to communicate/transliterate simply because the language isn't there.

I could probably be a very good Catholic or Wiccan, Buddhist or what have you, in terms of observances and contractual obeying, but it'd be functional fraud, or half-in/half-out. I could do an Eastern Hemisphere religion, but I'd be incompetent even if I were completely invested and involved.
 
 
Quantum
15:31 / 21.04.08
*in the context of white privilege*, it is simply meaningless to speak of non-white people as being racist against whites. Mordant (my emphasis)

So freektemple, your example from Djibouti isn't the same, is it? Anyway I agree this aspect of the discussion might be betteer continued in one of the many HS threads (here's one on racism and here's another on whiteness), but assuming we can broadly agree on what racism is, I think it's fair to say the most damaging impact on magical practice is it's unexamined aspects. I'm racist, you're racist, but the more you are aware of those racist attitudes the more you can counterbalance their effects.
Like taking the actions or beliefs of a few people and assuming they are indicative of a whole group of people, because they're (e.g.) non-white. That's something to be wary of right there.
 
 
Char Aina
15:35 / 21.04.08
I doubt the persons doing the bad behaviour towards Mordant were justifying it by a whole bunch of false-scientific theories about Mordant and Mordant's 'race' being inferior, or inherently dangerous - there was actually something which people like Mordant had actually done (crudely, killing Steven Lawrence and getting away with it) which, although Mordant didn't deserve the blame for it, constitutes an attack and makes the behaviour more akin to defense.

Sorta like freektemple's friend hypothetically killing the first black man he see because a black man raped someone close to him?

If a black raped your girlfriend, or mother, you wouldn’t want to kill him? You wouldn’t want to take it out on the first n***er you see? You wouldn’t want to kill them all?


Also, people like Mordant is only accurate with regard to hir percieved race. I doubt that these are people like Mordant in many other ways. What other similarities apart form her skin colour that led to this treatment, in your opinion?



a whole bunch of false-scientific theories about Mordant and Mordant's 'race' being inferior

I don't see what that has to do with it. Such theories may be part of some racism, but they are far from essential components.
 
 
This Sunday
15:42 / 21.04.08
I doubt the persons doing the bad behaviour towards Mordant were justifying it by a whole bunch of false-scientific theories about Mordant and Mordant's 'race' being inferior, or inherently dangerous

But isn't "[T]here was actually something which people like Mordant had actually done (crudely, killing Steven Lawrence and getting away with it)" actually pseudo-scientific extrapolation? Of the same order as any other extrapolation that comes from X are inherently violent/evil 'cause this one time, this one X did this thing. It was violent, yes?

It's not necessarily pseudo-biology, but it is pseudo or false social science.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
15:52 / 21.04.08
So... Would most here say that people are (or may be) racist, but the different Gods and Magickal systems aren't? In my example of the Gentleman from Dijbouti, His mother is Moslem, obviously, and she is racist. Whether from nature or nurture is meaningless. However, Islam is all-embracing, ans Allah does not care about race. (In principal, I'm told.)
Is it pretty much the same across different pantheons? Would Odin embrace a Black worshipper? Would Osiris embrace a Chinese? Would Anansi embrace a White?
Is there a difference in the archtypes and their mode of worship? If you decide or are chosen to worship a trickster God does it matter if it's Anansi or Loki? etc...
(Obviously I've never really been compelled or have been "Tapped" by any particular God/Spirit/Ancestor, which is why I ask.) Do the Gods turn a blind eye to race? Are there any examples people can give one way or the other?
 
 
Char Aina
16:00 / 21.04.08
Do the Gods turn a blind eye to race?

From my occasional dance with Jah, he seemed pretty unaffected by my race. The one time I sought to confirm that I was not trespassing he said not to worry. Had kind of a patronising, avuncluar tone, as though surprised I'd need to ask.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:06 / 21.04.08
In response to:

'But isn't "[T]here was actually something which people like Mordant had actually done (crudely, killing Steven Lawrence and getting away with it)" actually pseudo-scientific extrapolation? Of the same order as any other extrapolation that comes from X are inherently violent/evil 'cause this one time, this one X did this thing. It was violent, yes?'

I would reiterate that the negative interactions and harrassment I experienced occured not just in the context of there having been a single white-on-black racist murder, or in the context of this murder having been mishandled due at least in part to institutionalised racism in the police service, but also in the context of casual racist abuse by whites on what must have been almost a daily basis for many black people. I heard this shit at work, I heard this shit in the bus queue, in the supermarket, in the post office; there was racist graffiti everywhere; the shagging BNP have their bunker just up the line in Greenwich. To be a black person living in that area must have been like being mired in enemy territory every day of your life.
 
 
This Sunday
16:08 / 21.04.08
I think it depends on how you mean "embrace" or "accept." There's little can be done to stop you from believing a certain set of beliefs, but there's loads difference between that and trying to undertake duties, say, that are specifically assigned to a family line. Or practices/elements that involve rooting in community, instead of faith, which generally imply a certain racial aspect.

If family X of religious system Y call the sun from season to season, than it's unlikely that a stranger who wanders in, learns a bit of system Y and then tries to take on themselves the duties of family X would be looked upon kindly. That same person, learning of and about system Y and doing what they can to support family X is a different story.

The problem becomes, in my opinion, that many people want to join foreign systems and become head priests or vitally important badge-wearing entities. Which would be like me converting to Christianity with the intent of being Pope by next Thursday. It's those bad seeds that give the whole thing a dirty tinge sometimes.

And then we're right back to bigotry, racist or otherwise.

Further, there are religious systems that are predicated on race and on purity or strength of family lines and the like. Many do not, because it's hard to get a religion to grow under such a framework, but the sytems do exist, yes.

Further further, I wouldn't presume all trickster gods/figures are equal or the same, no. My background makes a breakdown between trickster and clown figures that many systems do not, but even just running with trickster, there's lots of difference between different groups' tricksters. Coyote and Rabbit are definitely not the same trope or person(a), definitely.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:09 / 21.04.08
If you decide or are chosen to worship a trickster God does it matter if it's Anansi or Loki? etc...

From my perspective? Yes it matters because those nice Gentlemen are different people. They may perform similar jobs, but They are not the same Guy and They have very, very different personalities.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:32 / 21.04.08
Would Odin embrace a Black worshipper?

Odin would, and has. Odin doesn't care if your dad was from Norway or Nigeria--He cares if you are courageous, battle-ready, a fine poet or singer, or mystically/magically inclined--if, in short, you can bring His mysteries into your life. Thor cares not if you are white, but if you are steadfast and hardworking. Same for the rest of the Norse. The Gythja (female priest) of a kindred I belong to is half-Singaporean, and was tapped by Loki; I know other mixed-race folk who've been called to heathenry and live their path with faith, passion and integrity.

The bottom line is not your ethnicity, it's your faith. It's your willingness to learn about and understand the Gods and wights, and your commitment to living in a manner fitting for a heathen and for a devotee of your particular fulltrui should you have one.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:48 / 21.04.08
...despite heathendom's infestation by racist invertebrates, Asgard is really all about the mixed marriages. Aesir marrying Vanir, Aesir marrying Jotnar, Vanir marrying Jotnar. Thor's mixed-race. His dad is Odin, His mum is a Jotynja, and so's His babymama Jarnsaxa. Frey married Gerda in defiance of objections from His tribe. And then there's Loki, a Jotun adopted into the clan as Odin's blood-brother. I could go on...
 
 
penitentvandal
19:32 / 21.04.08
If someone calls me Honky I would feel perplexed rather than upset.

I would be unable to work out if I was mad, in a coma, or had truly gone back in time to an era when people said 'honky'.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
19:43 / 21.04.08
Yeah, the correct slur would be Cracker, which I believe is a shortening of "Whip-Cracker" a term which African slaves would use to describe harsh or cruel masters (Are there any other kind?)Unfortunately, the people who it's supposed to describe and offend never got offended.
Anybody know the etymology of "Honkey"?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:20 / 21.04.08
the people who it's supposed to describe and offend never got offended.

This is because slurs from an oppressed group against the oppressors are seldom if ever capable of carrying any weight. X-ref how toothless the term "breeder" is when laid against all the horrible things heterosexuals call gay people, and so on.
 
 
This Sunday
06:28 / 22.04.08
"Honky" comes from Bohunk/Hungarian/Hunky. Least, so I have heard.

While most White people do not get terribly upset by the use of "honky" I do have to note it still has strong resonation in some nonwhite communities here in the States. It's a word I feel guilty using in a jokey situation because I realize part of my use is tainted with real racism and bitterness. Again, paralleling the way other nearly toothless terms like "breeder" or "monosexualist" or even "white" become used when their actual target are probably ninety-five percent not bothered by them. They're terms to unify and represent the anger/frustration/displeasure of the speaker/use and not necessarily the person they are being put to.

Words aren't always meant for anyone but the user. I don't think I'll ever use the word "savage" accidentally, for one.

On a more magickal front, for those of you who work witihin a system that is of another culture, how do you handle things when you feel you're missing something fundamental? Do you plow on? Do you hold back?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
09:28 / 22.04.08
...despite heathendom's infestation by racist invertebrates

Mordant, given that Team Norse as you present them seem to have a progressive attitude to race, I'm intrigued as to what, say, Thor, or Odin, or Loki's attitude is to the racists that claim to worship them. Can you enlighten me?
 
 
EmberLeo
09:55 / 22.04.08
FreekTemple: Would Odin embrace a Black worshipper? Would Osiris embrace a Chinese? Would Anansi embrace a White? ... Are there any examples people can give one way or the other?

Absoloutely. Just off the top of my head I know several examples of black folks who are Heathen. I know a woman of Persian/Iranian background who belongs to Aset/Isis, and Freya. I have a friend who is even whiter than me who gets on quite well with Anansi and Coyote (not because she generalizes the Trickster archetype, mind you, but because Tricksters congregate around her whether she likes it or not. She only usually likes it.)

So... Yes, I would have to say the gods are far less concerned with racial politics than we misguided mortals tend to be - well, outside of actively defending Their followers from racially motivated attacks, that is.

Daytripper: The problem becomes, in my opinion, that many people want to join foreign systems and become head priests or vitally important badge-wearing entities. Which would be like me converting to Christianity with the intent of being Pope by next Thursday. It's those bad seeds that give the whole thing a dirty tinge sometimes.

Ahh, that's well put. May I steal that?

Glen: I'm not Mordant, but in my experience there's two different responses. The first is simply that the people who get extremely Folkish tend to take the words of the Eddas, but not try to actually get into touch with the gods on a concrete level. The other is that perhaps there really IS a difference between their Wotan and my Odin, eh?

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:17 / 22.04.08
TBH Glenn, I've never asked. The Gods have indicated to me that They are not racist, don't want me to be a racist, support my opposition to racism as a devotional act, and that's all I care about. I don't play the "who do You like better? You like me better, right?" game.

I think it's a lot like Ember says--most of these groups are big on book-learning but not big on tackling the Gods and spirits directly. Groups that are Folkish also tend to be very rigid in other ways; they're usually the ones that are very big on getting your authentic Saxon costume right but less interested in actually connecting with the Gods. It's almost a point of honour for some groups and individuals: contact with the Gods and spirits is "Wiccan," possession is "Wiccan," and not allowing those things to contaminate your nice clean lily-white practice is a way of distinguishing yourself from those neopagan floozies.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:29 / 22.04.08
So, to be excruciatingly crude, are you talking about a divide between a hands-on practical orientation and hands-off prestigist-elitist orientation, as mirrorred in neo-pagans and Fuc... Folkish trads respectively?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:57 / 22.04.08
It's not really that simple. A lot of neo-pagans don't really do direct-contact, relationship-model based work either. I don't exactly identify as a neopagan myself, since I see nothing terribly "neo" about my stripe of heathenry. Quite the reverse, in fact.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:26 / 22.04.08
I'm intrigued as to what, say, Thor, or Odin, or Loki's attitude is to the racists that claim to worship them.

I'm not sure that it's that profitable to consider deities such as Thor, Odin, Loki and so on as individual personalities in exactly the same way as you or I could be considered individual personalities. On level they appear to be, they seem to prefer being treat as such, and you can get the most from the interaction by behaving as if this were the case. However, on another level, what you are actually dealing with could perhaps be described as a "field of mystery" - a particular pattern of ideas related to an area of nature or human experience. The specific individual personalities of the Gods could be considered as different cultural or ancestral lenses on perceiving and interacting with these fields of mystery, and the nature of those personalities have been shaped over time by cultural and environmental circumstances of the people who have historically interacted with them. So I don't think it is exactly as if you are just dealing with "some guy" who could be expected to have consistent opinions on a given subject at all times.

Also, as I wrote upthread: "The medium of our interactions with the Spirits has the nature of a mirror - and we will tend to find much of ourselves reflected back at us as we approach the mysteries." The nature of a deity partakes to some extent of the head that bears it. This sort of work is always, always going to involve almost as much of what you are bringing to the table as it involves interacting with what you find there waiting for you.

The African Diaspora traditions have the concept of "roads" of a deity, where you have your main overarching personality that could be described as, say, Erzulie - and within that concept are a multitude of different "roads" or personalities that reflect different aspects and possibilities within that "field of mystery". So in Vodou, you have Erzulie Freda, Erzulie La Sirene, Erzulie Dantor, Erzulie Ze Rouge, Erzulie La Flambeau and so on - each road of the Goddess expressive of a different mode of negotiating femininity. They are all "Erzulie" in different ways, and each is a very different personality who will interact with you very differently in various circumstances.

Additionally, each individual is thought to "inherit" their own specific versions of the Spirits from their ancestors, which could again be very different in tone and personality from the inherited ancestral Spirits of others, whilst maintaining certain core characteristics common to that field of mystery. On one level, "Erzulie" is a name given to the tropes and possibilities of femininity that have been subconsciously passed down to you by your parents; "Ogun" is a name for certain aspects of masculinity, with specific emphasis on survival and managing conflict, that you've inherited from your ancestors; and so on. But in spirit work, these complexes of ideas or "fields of mystery" behave as human-type personalities, prefer to be treat as such, and the best results are obtained by interacting as if this were the case. Your human-type relationship with these personalities is directly reflective of the relationship that you have with the complex of ideas they represent.

I would suspect that similar ideas probably apply to the nature of the Gods of the Northern tradition to some extent. So you're looking at something a lot more complex than a simplistic narrative where, say, Odin is an actual guy in another dimension somewhere who needs to shave and has all of these different relationships with various practitioners - some of whom may be racist, some of them who may be "progressive" as you put it - and who needs to negotiate this conflict of interests in the way that you or I might.

But also, I guess the much shorter answer is that a lot of your folkish practitioners don't actually interact directly with their Gods in the way that Mordant and other spirit workers do. For a large percentage of them, it's not really about that at all, so much as its about defining a sense of identity for themselves - and in many cases, a sense of identity which confirms and gives some kind of validation to their prejudices.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:08 / 22.04.08
The African Diaspora traditions have the concept of "roads" of a deity, where you have your main overarching personality that could be described as, say, Erzulie - and within that concept are a multitude of different "roads" or personalities that reflect different aspects and possibilities within that "field of mystery".

Yeah. You kind of get that too with the NT deities--or I do, anyway; although my approach is very clunky and literal on one level it is less literal than some other practitioners I know.

So within Odin you have Yggr, the terrifying, spear-hurling mentalist death-God; you have Oski, the benevolent granter of wishes; you have the battle-ready warrior and the wandering shaman, and many others. They're radically different manifestations, so well-developed in some cases that it's like interacting with a different God. But They're all Odin.

I guess the much shorter answer is that a lot of your folkish practitioners don't actually interact directly with their Gods in the way that Mordant and other spirit workers do.

Or maybe the Old Bastard is spinning us all different yarns so we'll strive amongst ourselves and grow stronger in the striving. Who can say.
 
 
This Sunday
19:10 / 22.04.08
Ahh, that's well put. May I steal that?

'S'all yours.
 
  

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