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Racism & Cross-Cultural Magickal Systems

 
  

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Eek! A Freek!
15:35 / 17.04.08
I know there are "cousin" threads for this topic, but none dealing specifically with this topic:

Can or should someone embrace a magickal system which has its roots in another culture as a path to enlightenment?

Personally I think that yes we can or should, but there are others who think not: As I’ve mentioned in another post, there are the racist leanings of “classical” occultists like Dion Fortune who think that westerners can only become adept in a western system. I’m reminded of a girl I knew who embraced Shintoism even though she admitted that she would remain “second-class”, because as a westerner, no Japanese Shintoist would ever accept her as an equal. I think of those of darker skin who become Mormons, who, according to Mormon scripture, if they are good enough, will have a great time in heaven serving whites…

Let me say that there is no such thing as reverse-racism. There is only racism. Period. For a white person to claim that non-whites cannot be racist is a slap in the face to those non-whites. For people like Spike Lee to claim that blacks cannot be racist is bullshit. Racism is exclusionism mixed with the fear of the unknown, pure and simple.

Sometimes, historically, people believe their racism is valid, but it becomes a chicken/egg paradox. A brief look at Jewish/Christian/Moslem conflicts and you can almost see why many hate each other. Look at the conflicts between the Hutu’s and Tutsi’s, the Chinese and Japanese, the French and English… It’s all been rationalized, boiling down to racial perspective, of us vs. them, of “righting” perceived historical “wrongs”… And, of course, FEAR.

Like it or not, we see the world through our own eyes, and those eyes are clouded by our upbringing and our environment. Only exposure to different things can de-mist-ify our cloudy vision.

For my own experience, I was born and raised in Quebec, which is, in my opinion a pretty closed, pretty racist society. As an Anglo in a Francophone environment, I have been subject to an amount of prejudice. Not nearly as much as a Black, or Native Quebecker, because if I kept my mouth shut, nobody would know I was a tête-carré. (Square head, or “bloke”, as anglos are called in Quebec.)
That’s not to say that I wasn’t bullied because of racial-linguistics. Many French Quebeckers who hail from France call themselves pur laine, or “Pure Wool”, seeing themselves above all others and having more natural rights than “les maudites”.

As a minority, I was excluded, and due to my upbringing, I excluded others: I remember being 16 and seducing a girl on the phone, and her dying to meet me. I was so excited, I told my parents that I was planning on going on a date with a Haitian girl…

Mom: “Uh… You know she’s black, right?”
Me: “No…”
Mom: “Haitian’s are black…”
Me: “So. I don’t care… She’s very nice.”
Mom: “I think that it could cause a lot of problems…”

I allowed myself to miss out on what may have been a beautiful romance. I came up with excuses as to why we couldn’t hook up. My parents’ upbringing held me back, and I wasn’t rebellious enough in my teens to break away from that. My parents were those “nice” racists, the ones who had black friends (who they would do anything for) but did not believe they should mix. My Dad’s good friend, Uncle Bobby, regularly got the shit kicked out of him because he had the audacity to date then marry a white woman. No one would dare touch Uncle Bobby if my Dad was around, but if he wasn’t…

So needless to say, I’ve inherited racist tendencies from my upbringing and environment.

It is now a part of my magickal training to undo and rewrite these memes, which is why I think it important to embrace “foreign” magickal systems: to open our eye’s (all three) to new experience.

As a person whose ancestors were primarily English, Scottish, Welsh and French, my leanings towards Celtic lore was natural. Unfortunately, I find that the current idea of what a Celtic magickal system is, quite honestly, sucks. At the risk of offending many, many people, I think that Gardener’s Wicca is merely GD Crowley-lite with some goddess worship thrown in... Well, it sucks for me… Different magickal strokes for different magickal folks.

I find that Voodoo (Both Hatian and New Orleans) offers me a system I can deal with: A different perspective that I can both relate to and “shock” myself with due to its “foreign-ness”. While there are some people who believe that the Lwa would laugh at a silly white boy, I believe that the spirits and gods are above that, especially since it’s my belief that they are reflections of our own souls – I’d like to believe I’m above that.

Maybe I’ve embraced it in penance for my stupidity and a nice girl I may have hurt… Maybe the fact that because it’s a French system, it’s a way for me to fit in with that which I’ve been excluded from… I don’t know if the psychology has any impact on the outcome, all I know is that the Lwa are all facets of my personality and dealing with them each separately has shown beneficial.

To wrap up, and hopefully start a conversation, I believe that embracing a “foreign” magickal system can be incredibly potent and a good way of wiping out old, perhaps harmful memes. If you’re going to cross the abyss, you may soon learn that there are many different paths, even many different abysses’s (Abisi?). A fear faced is a fear overcome, and if racism is fear, then embracing that fear is the most certain way to abolish it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:28 / 17.04.08
While there are some people who believe that the Lwa would laugh at a silly white boy, I believe that the spirits and gods are above that

My experience has been that if you go to the Lwa in the mode of a "silly white boy" - by which I mean with all of the baggage, preconceptions and weird ideas about Haitian/black culture that could be said to characterise the archetype of "silly white boy" - then you will more than likely face a reception from the Lwa fairly similar to the one you might get if you turned up to, say, a dancehall bash or grime do and displayed the same sort of awkwardness and self-consciousness in your interactions with the other punters based on the colour of their skin.

The medium of our interactions with the Spirits has the nature of a mirror - and we will tend to find much of ourselves reflected back at us as we approach the mysteries. Vodou Mambo and "silly white girl" Maya Deren wrote, "the nature of the Lwa partakes of the head that bears it", and I think there is much truth in that statement. If you develop a relationship with Ogun, you are first and foremost going to have to deal pretty directly with any personal issues you may have related to the field of mystery with which Ogun is concerned.

This stuff is more than likely going to be brought up to the surface at some point and perhaps be played out in the context of your relationship with Ogun, but it will essentially be "your stuff" that you are dealing with -reflected back at you through the mirror-like surface of the crossroads.

The magical work is to get through that, onto the other side and a more healthy relationship with those mysteries. Any turbulence that comes up in your relationships with the Spirits will tend to point towards some sort of imbalance in how you relate to them, and one which will need to be addressed and resolved in order for that relationship to function healthily.

You may find that you have a lot of "silly white boy" issues that keep coming up to the surface, in your dealing with the Spirits of a non-white culture. Your priority magical work is then about dealing with all of that, looking at what is going on in those responses, working through it and sorting it out so it stops being an issue. At the other end of that potentially challenging process is the "magical power" that automatically comes from effecting real transformative change.

Statements like "the Lwa would laugh at a silly white boy" are bollocks though. It depends on which specific Lwa for a start, and I think it is an inherently racist proposition to bundle them altogether as if they were not a grouping of very different personalities with very different attitudes and responses. It also depends on which specific "silly white boy", because - improbable as it may seem - they are also a grouping of very different personalities with very different attitudes and responses. If you go to the Lwa - or to the Aesir or any other deity for that matter - and behave like a total muppet, chances are you might give them the impression that you are a bit of a muppet and they will interact with you accordingly, and/or your own inherent muppetry will be reflected back upon you in the context of the relationship.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
17:02 / 17.04.08
Good post, by the way.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
17:18 / 17.04.08
Actually, I don't see myself as a "silly white boy" as much as I see myself as someone silly who happens to be a boy that's also white...

I see what you mean: that's why I was saying that some people may see it that way. There's another thread where the poster felt like he may be trespassing all over someone elses beliefs, somehow.

As I've approached voodoo, I see the Lwa as facets of my own personality: I reflect upon the spirit which reflects upon me which reflects upon... It's all very Indira's net.

I think the Lwa are representations of forces or emotions which are inherent within me, ready to be accessed at need. As my relationship develops with them, I may prove myself wrong: perhaps I will find I’m tapping into something that’s outside myself, not within, as I suspect. I’m not sure if this will really make a difference, but I’m willing to find out.

I just find that the Voodoo method of accessing these embodiments is the most approachable method. As for all the baggage that I bring along for the ride, I plan on ditching as much as I can as I go, wearing instead the garments which most suit the environment I find myself in, not those I’ve worn for a “personality”. I have found that I have a very flexible, adaptive mind, able to improvise in most any situation. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and fall flat on my ass, but I pick myself up and learn from my folly.

Hopefully with humour and a touch of grace.

I am of the mindset that if there’s hope for me, there’s hope for everyone. If I need to be put in place by one of the Lwa in order to evolve, well, so be it. I’ll try laugh as the metaphysical egg drips down my face.

Just curious Gypsy… Have I read you in the NOGV group on Yahoo?

I’ve read Maya Deren, and have watched Divine Horsemen as well as some of her other short films… I’m applying some of the base of the Haitian Tradition as I start to explore Bertiaux’s GVW. I’m also throwing in as much freeform, cross-discipline practices as I know. My biggest obstacle is overcoming laziness and actually working. (Which is why I joined Barbelith - for stimulation and inspiration… I have limited people I can connect with on a magickal level in my personal life.)

I try approach any working with equal parts seriousness and humour. I don’t know if this hinders me in any way, but I believe that if whatever creator(s) who made us wanted us to be completely serious, he/she/it would never have allowed us to fart. This fact encourages me to no end.
 
 
darth daddy
01:06 / 18.04.08
Welcome and enjoy Bertiaux.

There is a part of Castaneda's Don Juan books where Don Juan amazes Castaneda by wearing a suit....Changing up on one's habitual cultural habits is a powerful practice which I intend to try. While admiring Buddhism, I cannot imagine wearing orange. While admiring women, I cannot imagine wearing a dress. Oxford shirts and chinos only!!!

I'll let you know how I look in an orange dress.
 
 
Quantum
09:50 / 18.04.08
Castaneda was easily amazed.

your own inherent muppetry will be reflected back upon you in the context of the relationship.

So just like any other relationship then really- that's a great phrase.

freek, I'm interested that you should say "As a person whose ancestors were primarily English, Scottish, Welsh and French, my leanings towards Celtic lore was natural." If it's OK with you I'd like to use this thread to explore the assumptions we make that may include racist attitudes, as well as other stuff, because it's common to come across groups or individuals who suppose that your genetic heritage determines your 'nature' and thus your magic. Like the volkists, like those shinto folk who look down on the western girl or whatever, many people assume we have a 'natural' magic we should adopt.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:20 / 18.04.08
For a white person to claim that non-whites cannot be racist is a slap in the face to those non-whites. For people like Spike Lee to claim that blacks cannot be racist is bullshit. Racism is exclusionism mixed with the fear of the unknown, pure and simple.

I would dispute this statement. Firstly, whites are hardly "unknown" to nonwhite people. Secondly, racism is unreasonable prejudice. Given the cultural and historical context, claiming that a nonwhite person is unreasonably prejudiced against whites is like claiming that a man who has been repeatedly savaged by one's pet pitbull is unreasonably prejudiced against dogs when he doesn't want to pet it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:23 / 18.04.08
There's another thread where the poster felt like he may be trespassing all over someone elses beliefs, somehow.

I don't think this sort of thing needs to be an issue as long as you approach the other culture's beliefs humbly and with an honest heart. I think the important thing is to just be mindful that you are interacting with the culture or tradition on its own terms, and not superimposing your own ideas or ideas from other cultures onto it. This can actually be quite difficult to avoid, especially if you have an interest in multiple traditions. The brain likes to make connections and draw parallels between this system and that, which I think is pretty healthy and normal, but it's important to try and be mindful about that process as much as possible. If you look at something like Voodoo through too much of a western lens, you risk not really experiencing it for what it is on its own terms - and end up doing both it and yourself a disservice by not really learning anything beyond what you already understand.

I think the Lwa are representations of forces or emotions which are inherent within me, ready to be accessed at need.

I'd say, on one level, the Lwa are forces and emotions that are inherent within you. However, they exist as more than just subroutines within your own consciousness, because they are forces and emotions inherent within everybody and within nature at large. I prefer to think of them as the personifications of forces within nature - love, romance, passion, peace, compassion, aggression, and so on - which we are all subject to, and whose "fields of mystery" we constantly inhabit. This is still just my western intellectualising around the subject though, and at the end of the day - for practical purposes - you might be a lot better off just thinking of them as "The Spirits" and dealing with them as such.

Another important thing to keep in mind is the sheer depth of this practice. If you keep at it, you will find that your understanding and perspectives develop constantly - as conaissance grows - and what you think and feel about your practice five years down the line will likely be very different to what you understand about it now. One of the things that I find most fulfilling about this practice is its great depth and continual learning curve.

Just curious Gypsy… Have I read you in the NOGV group on Yahoo?

Not me, squire. Is it any good?

as I start to explore Bertiaux’s GVW.

How are you finding that? I found it pretty impenetrable and not particularly helpful. As I understand it, that book isn't even supposed to make sense - as its a collection of random papers culled from a much larger body of work. I'd say if you are genuinely interested in pursuing Bertiaux's particular idiosyncratic personal system - you would be a lot better off contacting him directly or one of his people, and working through his actual course materials rather than the mad jumble of random stuff that was published as the VGW. It's not exactly a "workbook" is it.

The first "lucky hoodoo" section is fairly practical, I guess. But it's also a bit silly, with all of that stuff about the spirits of the "Hoo" and the "Doo", and the whole cottaging tangent that he brings into it. It's workable - but if you want to learn about hoodoo conjure or sorcery within Voodoo, there's perhaps better sources than the VGW to pick it up from. Learn your roots and herbs. Learn your basic tricks (tying bags, mixing oils, preparing spiritual baths, working with dolls, etc). Ask whichever Lwa you have a relationship with to guide and teach you about work on their point.

I often think that the appeal of the VGW has a lot to do with the text-based nature of magic in the west. There aren't really any good practical books on Voodoo, because it isn't really something that you learn from a book. You can't really boil it down to a series of easily digestable exercises that can be presented in a Llewellyn-style textbook. Voodoo so much about direct visionary experience, that it's difficult to clearly express in the text-based terms that western magicians are broadly accustomed to. So because the VGW - or at least its title - purports to be a "workbook" that can be used to access all of this weird, exotic material that isn't in print anywhere else; and because - until its recent republication - hardly anyone had actually even read the fucking thing cos it was so difficult to score a copy, it's developed all of this cultural cache. Then you get yourself a copy and are confronted with a totally impenetrable slab of mentalism that you could get lost in for decades as try to fathom one specific guy's very personal and idiosyncratic trip. Good luck to you if you're committed to exploring this material, but if it's Voodoo you want to learn, I'd suggest putting the demented grimoire down, and just getting yourself down to the crossroads with a bottle of rum and an honest heart. Maybe a decent cigar.

Oxford shirts and chinos only!!!

Never trust a magician in chinos.
 
 
illmatic
10:50 / 18.04.08
I often think that the appeal of the VGW has a lot to do with the text-based nature of magic in the west

Another point is Bertiaux brings this whole Lovecraftian weirdo gnostic angle which is his and his alone, and not much to do with voodoo as practised in Haiti or throughout the Haitian disporia. It does appeal to Western magicians, though - we all love a bit of the dark glamour don't we? - but obscurity and mutant radioactive were-spiders aren't necessarily that useful. I think it's worth remembering a lot of Bertiaux's strange trip, and that in itself comes to us filtered through a load of crazed racist cultural/Hollywood baggage - zombies, barbaric rituals, sacrifice and so on. Interesting book in it's own right, but I don't think it's anything like a definitive source on voodoo.

Excellent resource alert - I recently picked up this
and it's excellent. Not quite finished but its the first collection of essays on voodoo/vodou from Haitian scholars. It's an academic work not a "workbook", so you might find it a bit "dry" but to me it's much more interesting than Bertiaux as it puts the religion vodou in a social and historical context.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
13:01 / 18.04.08
For anyone interested in connecting with practitioners of New Orleans style Voodoo they may want to check out: new_orleans_gnostic_voodoo@yahoogroups.com

Quantum: I’d love to explore this tangent: I used to date a self-initiated Wiccan. She was Dutch/English and very into Celtic imagery. We connected because I was open and into Celtic Mythos. She believed that it’s was only natural to be “into” a system which was traced back by racial origins.

As for myself, I was inspired to look closely into Celtic mythos when I was 12, after reading Lloyd Alexander’s “Prydain” books. Only then did I learn of my Welsh grandmother (Who died long before I was born). Before that my parents never talked much about family history, and I never really thought of asking… Since I was inspired by books I loved, and there was a personal connection, it seemed obvious to try discover a Celtic path to enlightenment. Now where to find the victims…

Just throwing out an idea: Do you think that Ancestor Worship could lead to racist thought? If one sees their system as “better” or “more worthy” of others, I can see that tracing magickal thinking only through ancestors may be dangerous…

I would dispute this statement. Firstly, whites are hardly "unknown" to nonwhite people. Secondly, racism is unreasonable prejudice.

What I was getting at is that racism is a product of the FEAR of the “unknown” which is different from us, or foreign to us. It’s the fear of this which can lead to racism because of a lack of understanding. We are not as accustomed to the nuances of body language or facial expressions of people from a radically different geographical location, and the miscommunication between cultures can lead to hatred. I think that hatred, either rational or irrational, stems from this fear. After that, it’s the short stupid leap to lump together all people of that culture.

Examples:

It is known that there are many people of the Moslem faith who hate “westerners”. When you look at the context of the crusades, then colonialism, then corporate imperialism it becomes pretty easy to see how the past few generations of Moslem’s living in the countries ravaged by the west despise us. We’ve bombed them, exploited them, robbed them, and then made ridiculous caricatures of them… We have done all this to the people who safeguarded and preserved our own ancient culture and origins for us: They were the ones who kept the writings of Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras, Pliny, etc… while the church kept us as slaves living in filth and burned our books and tried to wipe out our ancient heritage. Islam gave us our numbers, much of our maths, geometry, architecture and medicine. We swept in when they had a moment of weakness and tried to enslave them.
(A very watered down, simplistic view of a complex relation, I know, but I’m making a point not a thesis…)

A very big pet peeve of mine since 9/11 is that most of the west only cares about the Who, Where, How but barely anyone asks why? Our FEAR of an advanced culture led us to racism and we tried to destroy that culture. Failing that we try to enslave it. Their (substantiated?) FEAR of barbaric aggressors led to a racism based on ideas of superiority and righteous vendetta. Each side has many more hang-ups and BS justifications, but like I said, I’m keeping it fairly simple. Both sides of this example also make it an all-or-nothing Us vs Them issue. Not all Moslems hate us. Not all westerners hate Islam.

Example 2: (Snippet of actual conversation 15 years ago)

Friend: (after witnessing a fight) When it comes down to it, you have to side with your own. If it’s blacks versus whites, you have to go white. You can believe that they’re going to do the same.
Me: But you can’t say that… Not all blacks are the same, just like all whites are the same. You have white assholes, you have black assholes. Good people on both sides, too. You can’t blame all blacks for something some of them do, you have to treat people on an individual case-by-case basis…
Friend: Oh Yeah? If a black raped your girlfriend, or mother, you wouldn’t want to kill him? You wouldn’t want to take it out on the first n***er you see? You wouldn’t want to kill them all?
Me: No. If a white raped YOUR girlfriend or mother, would you want to kill all whites? Would you kill yourself?
Friend: … That’s different.
Me: How?
Friend: It just is. It’s different, I’m different. It’s not the same.

The conversation dropped there. He thought I was stupid because I didn’t share his us vs them attitude. Funny thing is, he was into only rap music, dressed “urban”, and thought he was “Down with the homeboys”…He still held a tribal mentality. It was a fear of a culture that he tried to understand, but he couldn’t get past the trappings of his perception of that culture.

Maybe the problem is thinking in terms of groups, not individuals…

I’m not sure, but I think I lost a point somewhere…

As to Bertiaux: I’ve read an awful lot ABOUT the VGN. Now that I own it, it is a bit hokey, but I kind of like it. As I practice the candle-work, I even end up putting on a big fat, fake Nouvelle Orleans accent… I can’t wait to explore the undecipherable stuff: I imagine it will be like peeking into someone else’s mushroom trip. How close I follow the book remains to be seen… I’m hoping that the VGN will become a gateway system…
 
 
illmatic
13:17 / 18.04.08
I can see that tracing magickal thinking only through ancestors may be dangerous…

I don't know about this. If one combines magical work with some actual genealogical study, I suspect you'll find that the racial background of most individuals is actually a lot more diverse than you might suspect. Very few of us are going to have "pure" bloodlines - perhaps more so in Europe, but even then....
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:38 / 18.04.08

Just throwing out an idea: Do you think that Ancestor Worship could lead to racist thought? If one sees their system as “better” or “more worthy” of others, I can see that tracing magickal thinking only through ancestors may be dangerous…


This is something I tussle with a fair bit in my own spiritual life as it relates to the broader community. I'm a heathen--a pagan who worships the Northern pantheon--and there is a FUCKLOAD of racist crap sloshing around within Heathendom.

Like you, I felt attracted to the Celtic gods as a young 'un because of the supposed ancestral connection. I was initially drawn to Team Norse for the same reason. Not because of a sense of ownership--"these are my Gods coz I'm white!"--but a sense of wanting to avoid trespassing on other peoples' turf. (I should say that my reasons for converting ultimately had little to do with any of this; I was converted after a religious experience). I think it is in a sense "natural" for a white European to be drawn to European deities simply because we're exposed to them a lot more in our culture.

Anyhow, back to the fuckload of racism. Quants has already mentioned volkism or Folkism. This is the belief, held by many heathens, that the Gods should only be worshipped by people of the same ethnicity as the original pre-Christian pagans--that is to say, lily-white anglos. Folkies often try and gloss over the ugly truth of their position by appealing to the ancestor-veneration aspect of heathen practice.

This angers me more than I can articulate. I consider it to be wholly racist, wholly unsupportable, and appallingly toxic. It cannot be supported from the lore (the Elder Kin certainly weren't stay at homes, and as for the Gods--well, Asgard is full of mixed marriages) and from a hard polytheistic perspective it is risible. The Gods will call who They'll call, regardless of what some white supremacist asshat may think of it.

Ancestor worship makes up a big part of my own spiritual practice--that, and the worship of the Landwights, is the beating heart of heathenry. But I don't feel that I am elevating my ancestors' ethnicity by so doing--I'm not venerating them because they're white, I'm venerating them because they're my ancestors. I find that ancestor worship increases my sense of kinship with others rather than diminishing it. Through Them, I am connected to all of humanity, not cut off into a shabby little ghetto of racist paranoia.
 
 
darth daddy
13:53 / 18.04.08
obscurity and mutant radioactive were-spiders aren't necessarily that useful

I respectfully beg to differ. For me, Bertiaux's book, while not in any sense an accurate distillation of any tradition, is incredibly creative and chock full of practical concepts. There are some meditation techniques in the book which I have used to good effect, specifically contacting alternate selfs in different timelines and different planets/realities.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:55 / 18.04.08
Can you articulate how that helped you in your actual day-to-day life to any extent.
 
 
darth daddy
14:16 / 18.04.08
I have a long standing experience of being in touch with a future "enlightened" self. This self is incredibly accurate in terms of predictions and directions. By formalizing this practice, albeit in my own way and not Bertiaux's way (I'm not big on Atlantis)I have garnered perspective on my life and practices. To my mind this is similar to generation stage yoga as set forth in tantra.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:32 / 18.04.08
Thanks for that, it also sounds a bit like some interpretations of the western tradition's "knowledge and conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel" experience.

I think my main problem with Bertiaux - and Kenneth Grant for that matter - is that their work encourages people to interact with these really abstract concepts like mutant radioactive were-spiders or Atlantis or Trans-Yuggothian energies - often at the expense of ever really getting to grips with the more fundamental stuff of human existence that Voodoo actually does really well.

Voodoo itself is so much about the realities of your day-to-day experience, the basic conditions of your existence, the world of the senses, the planet you are standing on here and now, your immediate environment, your essential nature, etc. This is the sort of stuff that you end up engaging with, at a really deep level, if you begin working with the Lwa that make up the core pantheon. But the Bertiaux material seems to completely skip all of this really essential human stuff and immediately goes off into these mad, totally abstract and not always entirely healthy territories.

I dunno, much of it comes across as escapism to me, to a great extent. I think a lot of magicians prefer to distract themselves with a big psychedelic magical mystery tour that might be intellectually interesting and which might bolster the ego, but doesn't really seem to impact on their lives to any tangible extent or bring about any real change. Whereas a relationship with one of the Lwa: Legba, Erzulie, Ogun, etc is going to involve a direct confrontation with the very real mysteries that constitute your day-to-day human existence - and that's where all of the really interesting and important stuff is as far as I'm concerned.

It just seems a bit odd for people to be spending their time attempting communication with entities from the outer reaches of the Galaxy or from other realities, when in most instances they haven't even scratched the surface of engaging with the vast panoply of mysteries pertaining to the planet they are actually standing on here and now - which are rather more essential to their lives than whatever may or may not be going on beyond Yuggoth, if such a place exists.
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
14:45 / 18.04.08
It seems to me, GL, that it's like the difference between being on Mushrooms and either paying attention to all the pretty colours or studying the leaves on tree. One is a head-trip, one is rooting yourself to this existance.
...
Both have their benefits.
The agnostic in me is prepared to accept that this may be all there is. This one life. It's a possibility. If that's the case, magickal practices which focuses on humanity and human senses seems the most logical path.
If you want to prepare for the possibility of a truly unknowable afterlife, maybe Bertiaux's system is valid. He focuses on love and life, but says that you should be prepared for some really fucked up dark shit, too...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:51 / 18.04.08
I disagree and I think you're misunderstanding what I'm getting at in quite a fundamental way, but I'll have to follow this up next week as it Friday afternoon and there are now beers to drink.
 
 
Quantum
16:02 / 18.04.08
(Snippet of actual conversation 15 years ago)

Your 'friend' was a racist.

She believed that it’s was only natural to be “into” a system which was traced back by racial origins.

I'm fascinated by this as I don't have that sort of strong connection to my ancestry- it seems only natural to me I should follow the path I'm most interested in regardless of my origin. I mean, I could look into Saxon magic as my roots but frankly it has bugger all relevance to my life and I'm just not that interested in it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:23 / 20.04.08
What I was getting at is that racism is a product of the FEAR of the “unknown” which is different from us, or foreign to us. It’s the fear of this which can lead to racism because of a lack of understanding. We are not as accustomed to the nuances of body language or facial expressions of people from a radically different geographical location, and the miscommunication between cultures can lead to hatred. I think that hatred, either rational or irrational, stems from this fear. After that, it’s the short stupid leap to lump together all people of that culture.

But this doesn't really follow, does it. We live in a multicultural society where people can be of different races yet hail from the same geographical location. People can also have fairly similar cultures and yet be of different races. I would still argue that in the context of a society where the majority are white ethnic Europeans, or where the majority of the material wealth and the majority of the political power rests in the hands of white ethnic Europeans, it is effectively impossible for nonwhites to be "racist."

The hypothetical example of "what if a black/white guy beat up your sister" misses the point. We're not in a hypothetical situation here. If you are nonwhite, it is very likely that white guys already have offered you violence, either physical or psychological in the form of threats or racial abuse; that white people on TV have made discriminatory statements about people who look like you; that cariacatures of people who look like you are deemed an appropriate source of humor by the culture around you; that newspapers offer scare stories defaming people who look like you; that you have been repeatedly turned down for employment without an adequate explanation; that you have been denied educational opportunities; or that you have found yourself a person of interest to the police more often than your white counterparts. In short it is likely that your life has been made just a little or a great deal suckier than was strictly necessary by white people because you are not white. It is also likely that when you try to outline these grieviences, other white people will minimise, deny, explain away, or otherwise dismiss them.

Harbouring a sense of resentment, hostility or of anxiety relating to whites in this context isn't racism or paranoia, it's an entirely rational and understandable response to one's own personal experiences. (I say nothing of the impact that rich and powerful white people have on nonwhite people on a global scale.) The fact that some nonwhite people manage to make the heroic effort needed to put aside their grievances does not make those responses invalid.

Whilst it's true that all white people do not have equal access to white privilege--this privilege, not being a rational construction, can be reduced or revoked altogether--this does not mean that white privilege does not exist. I say this because I think a discussion like the one we're having right here REALLY needs to be grounded in an awareness of white privilege.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
12:37 / 20.04.08
I would still argue that in the context of a society where the majority are white ethnic Europeans, or where the majority of the material wealth and the majority of the political power rests in the hands of white ethnic Europeans, it is effectively impossible for nonwhites to be "racist."

Really? Even for those you refer to as nonwhites to be racist against members of other nonwhite groups? My experience would suggest that this ain't so.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:39 / 20.04.08
Yes, you're correct--I was unclear there. I should have said "racist against whites."
 
 
penitentvandal
15:04 / 20.04.08
I mean, I could look into Saxon magic as my roots but frankly it has bugger all relevance to my life and I'm just not that interested in it.

That's a very good point. I think vodoun-based paradigms are probably a lot easier for the modern magician to relate to than some of the older European systems, because modern western popular culture has a massive debt to black popular culture. The vast majority of rock music has its roots in the blues, for example, and while I'm not saying Robert Johnson and Howlin' Wolf were secretly l33t ka05 v00d00 magikkyns 1, the milieu the early blues musicians came from was steeped in the 'superstitions' of New Orleans hoodoo and, of course, the recent experience of slavery which was so crucial to the formation of the voudoun traditions.

Me, I've always been more into bluesy, funky types of music than Riverdance and Clannad, so voudoun always seemed a better fit with my aesthetic sensibilities. Which is not to say there weren't problems - one of the most important of which was learning not to view the orishas through the lens of 20th century pop culture. It does your relationship with Chango no good to conceptualise him as some kind of mack daddy character - yes, he is a pretty high-testosterone individual but one has to bear in mind that he's a lot bigger than you and doesn't like being thought of as Chris Tucker in a funny hat.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:40 / 20.04.08
It's also worth noting that no European alive today has the first fecking clue who or what hir ancestors worshipped a thousand years ago. First of all--how do you know you're a Saxon, or a Dane, or whatever? Yeah, if you've had DNA testing you might be able to demonstrate that your forebears came from this or that part of the world. Otherwise--you don't know, you're just guessing. Whose recorded family tree goes back that far?

Even if you can pin your antecedents down to a specific location, you still don't know Who or what they worshipped. Maybe they worshipped Woden or Thunor, or maybe they worshipped some God whose name is lost to us now. Maybe they didn't bother with the big-name celebrity Gods and worshipped a family spirit. Maybe they worshipped a hill, or a lake, or a preserved horse's pizzle. You don't know! No-one knows. This whole thing about only worshipping your ancestral Gods is a total crock.
 
 
Quantum
17:07 / 20.04.08
Quite- and what if your mother is descended from French Catholics and your father from Scandinavian Jews? Or a few branches up your family tree you find people from Russia, Greece and Albania or whatever?
It's silly.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
18:22 / 20.04.08
Me, I've always been more into bluesy, funky types of music than Riverdance and Clannad

Isn't this pretty much the same, in terms of its reducing of a whole people's music to its lamest manifestations, as saying 'Me, I've always been more into folksy music than MC Hammer and Lemar'?
 
 
penitentvandal
18:41 / 20.04.08
Er, no. I was mentioning Riverdance and Clannad precisely because they are inauthentic applications of the ideas behind Irish folk music, in the same way that, for me, it would be inauthentic to start going around pretending to be a druid.
 
 
This Sunday
01:17 / 21.04.08
Yeah, I can't back the notion of going back and digging about your roots for a god or a saviour or a cool deep spiritual connection to particular tree you knew nothing about before you found out just now your ancestors might have liked it some.

I think it's important to note that many mystery religions became that way because of the way laws were structured or in place at a certain time. When your practices are outlawed or discouraged, you get good at burying large chunks of it from public view. And you get a bit good at midirection and sometimes outright lying. This is as true for many branches of Christianity as it is from anybody else.

The mystery religion angle often comes not from an issue of genetics, though, but one of culture. There are certain concepts I have totally failed to render out of their context, and been unable to share the context of. And I know that if/when I'm with someone who is not in the community, as they say, I have to give up certain social or group practices. I'm not required to be there or to participate in those, but it's still unpleasant.

But even in community, in the larger, Multinational Native Western Hemisphere Type Community, there are of course elements of various factions (tribal, regional, et al) that I can't or wouldn't move into or attempt to take on. Not because I don't think anyone can get anything out of them, or even that I wouldn't gain something, but because they aren't mine. Emic and etic get tossed around a lot and treated like a bit of a bitter joke or something science fictiony, but really, we experience it often enough, don't we? Most of us?

And then there's the stereotypical eager young white/black fellow who can be counted on to supply cigarettes, earnestly sit through being the brunt of bad jokes, and maybe he'll learn something and maybe he'll stick around long enough to joke back and to belong. It's a practice I haven't the inclination towards, but it is a common enough practice. Works in reverse, too, and in all sorts of variations, but is it really worth it from any of those angles, or is it just thinly disguised racism and vengeance?
 
 
EmberLeo
06:18 / 21.04.08
I guess I find this curious. While I don't think it's weird for someone to take an interest in a totally foreign culture, it does seem fairly natural to me that someone would take interest in their own heritage, and whatever mythology and magic is associated with it. It also seems natural to me that one would take interest in whatever culture they have contact with, whether it is a part of their heritage or not. And that one might take interest in the environment they are in, regardless of whether their ancestors lived there a hundred years ago. It seems all but inevitable that these things would mix as life goes along its merry way.

I am therefore not terribly surprised at myself that I have taken an interest in native Californian ecology and, when possible, the cultures of the local tribes, in the very culturally mixed Orixa and Lwa traditions that I see echoed in the multicultural society that surrounds me, and in the Northern European pantheons that reflect my own personal heritage. I don't handle them all the same way, but then I don't handle my own family the same way I handle friends, neighbors, coworkers, or total strangers. I don't handle plants the same as animals, or machines, or rocks. And yet looking at all these things shows me where there are common threads of respect and compassion between them all. It shows me the spirit holding everything together (like duct tape! No, wait...)

Ultimately, I didn't look into "Team Norse" because I felt I owned Them by right of blood, nor because I feared treading on some other turf out of white guilt (though I do have a fair share of it), but because I fit in with cultural patterns of the people I knew who follow the reconstructed Scandinavian/Germanic Pagan traditions. The sense of humor, the social expectations, the measures of right and wrong - they already made sense. They required the least change of behavior and understanding on my part. I fit in without hardly trying. (This is not to say I am never challenged by my experiences with Them, but then I'm finding relations with my family to be fairly challenging lately too, so there you go. Life is one big long learning experience.)

Freek: Just throwing out an idea: Do you think that Ancestor Worship could lead to racist thought? If one sees their system as “better” or “more worthy” of others, I can see that tracing magickal thinking only through ancestors may be dangerous…

I percieve Ancestor Worship to be a great equalizer. Ultimately, respect for The Ancestors can lead back to honoring what it is that all of humanity shares. I mean really, everybody dies, everybody comes from somewhere, everybody has Ancestors. My ancestors may be more mine than yours (presuming we aren't closely related), but that doesn't make them better in any objective sense - believe me, some of my ancestors were complete assholes. As with Mordant, I'm not venerating my Ancestors because they're white, I'm venerating them because they're my Ancestors. Besides, if I extend my own ancestor worship to include the ancestors of my cousins I don't get to keep the lily-white track record anyway, and that's presuming I'm 100% European by blood, which is not remotely guaranteed.

Ultimately, I don't think serious Ancestor worship automatically leads to racism any more than anything else racists try to own does. A separatist attitude can find excuses wherever it looks - that doesn't make it right.

But then I am currently learning two different systems of Ancestor worship - one through Umbanda, the other through Heathenism. I am continually struck by what they have in common - right before I largely ignore both sets of instructions and treat my own ancestors according to the joys I learned from being a member of my actual birth family.

Whose recorded family tree goes back that far?

Outside of royalty? Good question. My Dad's side goes back to the 1400s - that's the German side, I think. Pretty solidly Christian at that point, of course. Before that I got nothin' All I know is that I got mistaken for a local in Scotland, England AND Sweden. Don't think anyone would make that mistake in Italy. Still, "Northern Europe" doesn't narrow it down all that much, does it? Much ado has been made of my red hair, so I thought the Celtic pantheons would interest me more, but I can't make heads or tails of 'em to be honest. (Recently it has been brought to my attention that They do not think the same of me, but I need another pantheon right now like I need more holes in my head. And yet.)

--Ember--
 
 
Eek! A Freek!
11:42 / 21.04.08
Ultimately, respect for The Ancestors can lead back to honoring what it is that all of humanity shares. I mean really, everybody dies, everybody comes from somewhere, everybody has Ancestors.

Well said. If honest enough, I believe you are right.

I just began re-reading Deren's Divine Horsemen this morning on the bus (Due to Gyspy Lantern and this thread) and her whole take on the structure of myth reflects your thinking.

I think I was allowing to let myself get confused between what would be a sincere ancestor worship, and that other BS type which allows justification for some asshole's racism. Kinda like the nazis evoking the nordic pantheon... In blind bouts of cynicysm, I forget sometimes that people are potentially good and actually mean what they say sometimes.
 
 
Char Aina
12:37 / 21.04.08
For a white person to claim that non-whites cannot be racist is a slap in the face to those non-whites. For people like Spike Lee to claim that blacks cannot be racist is bullshit. Racism is exclusionism mixed with the fear of the unknown, pure and simple.

I would dispute this statement. Firstly, whites are hardly "unknown" to nonwhite people. Secondly, racism is unreasonable prejudice. Given the cultural and historical context, claiming that a nonwhite person is unreasonably prejudiced against whites is like claiming that a man who has been repeatedly savaged by one's pet pitbull is unreasonably prejudiced against dogs when he doesn't want to pet it.


Non-white folk can be racist, as anyone who has ever spent some time in Africa(and i assume elsewhere too) will attest to.
If you have never encountered inter-non-white racism, I can see how you might be filtering non-white racism to mean racism by non-white folks against white folks, but there is a large amount of racist sentiment among non white people, as there is with all people.

One of the most shocking racist encounters I have experienced was between a Kenyan claiming SE Asian origins and a Kenyan claiming Zulu origins.

I would also respectfully suggest that prejudice against whites can be seen as unreasonable. I am not my father, and he is not his.



You may feel there is good reason to fear whitey, but it is still prejudice.
 
 
Quantum
12:48 / 21.04.08
See where MC wrote Yes, you're correct--I was unclear there. I should have said "racist against whites."

I would also respectfully suggest that prejudice against whites can be seen as unreasonable. I am not my father, and he is not his.

Well, yes, but *this* pitbull is not the same dog as the last three pitbulls that bit me- I'm still going to be wary of it's slavering jaws. That's not unreasonable.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:50 / 21.04.08
In the passage you quote, I made it very clear that I was not referring to inter-non-white racism. Except in one single phrase, I have been very careful to make it clear that I'm referring to "prejudice" against white people in non-white people. I believe I already clarified that single phrase above when Glenn mentioned it:

I was unclear there. I should have said "racist against whites."

I lived in London for eight years. I have eyes. Trust me, I have observed plenty of inter-non-white racism.
 
 
Char Aina
12:58 / 21.04.08
*this* pitbull is not the same dog as the last three pitbulls that bit me- I'm still going to be wary of it's slavering jaws.

Sure, but you wouldn't kick it, would you? I've been abused for my white skin before, and I think that was unreasonable, however reasonable the hatred of my percieved racial group was.
The learned distrust of white people may be fair enough, but the abuse(both physical and verbal) on account of my skin colour that I have suffered qualifies, I believe, as racist.

For people [..] to claim that blacks cannot be racist is bullshit.

While I'd have said black people ('blacks' sounds wrong to me), I'd agree with that.
 
 
Char Aina
13:01 / 21.04.08
In the passage you quote, I made it very clear that I was not referring to inter-non-white racism.

Well, no, you made it clear a bit later, which I missed, having only read so much of the thread at the time of posting. I apologise for the confusion my eagerness to interact caused.

It seemed like you were filtering freektemples "For a white person to claim that non-whites cannot be racist is a slap in the face to those non-whites" to be only about racist sentiment directed at white people.
He didn't say that in the bit you quoted.
 
  

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