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Magician in swaddling clothes

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04:07 / 23.01.08

thanks for the concern, 'Strangers.

heh yeah, i guess it seems a bit sketchy from what i have shared. i have talked to a few doctors about coming off medication. what i take is primarily for sleep and a bit for anxiety, i guess. i have never been diagnosed manic or suicidal or bi-polar and who is to say that the mild issues i was drugged up for as a kid were part of developement and i have not grown out of them? i could go on and on about this but i don't really want a thread about my dependence, though i can honestly say that the only scary factor about kicking the meds is my complete inability to sleep unaided and i refuse to accept that there are no alternatives to that problem.

07:02 / 23.01.08

sorry tts, wasnt meant to be a dig. i just got the impression of a bunch of old men (ya i know) sitting around with cigars saying

'you must read critically'
'indeed, quite so'
'yes, critical reading is the key'
'o yes, reading critically is quite necessary'

maybe if youd said what i said, i wouldnt have had to say it. i think critical reading of magical texts is a complex concept, maybe more so than critical reading of journalism or academia. i got the impression that some of you 'gurus' (and i use the scare quotes with the utmost respect) were expecting more of this neophyte than was justified. as someone who is somewhere in between, i thought i could mediate the idea a little. didnt mean to come across as snide or offensive.

exultant, i have significant trouble with sleep myself. the only thing that works for me is establishing a routine. i cant stick to it 100%, but i know that if i get up at the same time every day, do some yoga and qi gong, drink some tea, shower, etc, that i will be tired at around the same time. the problem is that it takes a while to get the routine established, but only one day to fuck it up completely. and having the freedom to fuck myself up completely is an important part of my own magic.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:20 / 23.01.08

Okay, I'm mollified but more confused than ever.

maybe if youd said what i said, i wouldnt have had to say it.

From my perspective, people did say something not a million miles from what you said. Firstly, that's kind of what the phrase "critical reading" means; secondly, people did talk around the subject a little and give a fuller explanation of what they meant. Sorry, but I'm getting the impression that you didn't really process what people actually wrote before offering a slightly reflexive response.

i just got the impression of a bunch of old men (ya i know) sitting around with cigars saying 'you must read critically'

If you got that impression, then I'm afraid it might have come from preconceptions and assumptions that you're bringing to the table. I'm genuinely bemused as to what the problem is here, or why you keep wheeling out the term guru (even in scare quotes). It's alomst like you think it's wrong for people who happen to have had some practice to be offering advice... to someone who has asked for help.

trouser the trouserian

07:31 / 23.01.08

i think critical reading of magical texts is a complex concept, maybe more so than critical reading of journalism or academia. i got the impression that some of you 'gurus' (and i use the scare quotes with the utmost respect) were expecting more of this neophyte than was justified.

Well yes, I agree with you corecase, hence the qualifiers I made previously to the effect that I didn't actually start reading magical texts 'critically' for some time - years in fact. It is a complex subject and probably deserves a seperate thread, if only to find out what people actually mean by the term. Thoughts?

08:49 / 23.01.08

I actually was smoking a fat cigar when I wrote the above posts. A very rare and expensive cigar, rolled by traditional witches at the dark moon, and probably worth more than your entire collection of magic books. I was smoking it in my exclusive London Occultist Gentleman's club, with my compatriots in the black arts, commenting on how laughable and pathetic your attempts at magic are - which we have been watching, disdainfully, through a scrying glass for our after-dinner entertainment. A very poor show.

Whenever ash falls from my cigar, it is lovingly caught on the naked torso of my latest initiate, for in my order - before attaining the first grade of "Neophyte" - one must first pass through the grade of "Ashtray" which can take any number of years of dedicated service. For only in the purgative fires of this grade can one aspire to comprehend the true and ancient power of "critical reading" - an abominable craft imparted to our brethren by psycho-sexual transmission from our amphibious masters who reside on the plateau of cock. Evidently - at your level of initiation - you cannot begin to comprehend the breadth and scope of these mysteries.

Closed for Business Time

08:52 / 23.01.08

Eh... can I join?

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

13:32 / 23.01.08

i got the impression that some of you 'gurus'

might be wrong, but I believe that Papess was saying zhe has a guru, and gets a lot of mileage out of that relationship, not that zhe (or anyone else here) is a guru.

(and i use the scare quotes with the utmost respect)

sorry, what does that even mean?

i wonder what it is about certain tentative introductions that make everyone helpful, while other poor sods get shouted down or ignored.

well, there's a little bit of luck involved, as in who happens to be more actively posting right then and who's on vacation, or whether people are in a better mood, etc.

mostly, though, I think it's whether or not somebody's first post makes them sound nice, or a jerk.

anyway...exultant801: people here have offered up some great advice already. personally I might add that, for me, part of my first serious steps weren't really up to me; they sort of happened to me. whoever you end up working with, or how you decide to label those People - Gods, godforms, extraterrestrial ghosties, dark corners of your own subconscious - you will almost certainly be working with Somebody who is not You, at least not in the way you normally think of yourself as You. Some of what happens to you may, as it was for me and several others here, be up to that Somebody - who decides to work with you, and what they decide they want you to do. which is not to say that you have no choice in the matter, but more like a warning - you may not be in total control of what happens. for instance, most people find themselves getting what they Need and not what they Want.

try not to freak out when/if this happens, and keep yourself open to the idea that you may not be running the show.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:53 / 23.01.08

whoever you end up working with, or how you decide to label those People - Gods, godforms, extraterrestrial ghosties, dark corners of your own subconscious - you will almost certainly be working with Somebody who is not You, at least not in the way you normally think of yourself as You...try not to freak out when/if this happens, and keep yourself open to the idea that you may not be running the show.

An excellent point, very much my own experience.

Unconditional Love

16:03 / 23.01.08

It might be an idea to stick to the meds if sleep becomes a problem, my problems are different to yours, I take a strong anti depressant which helps me in several ways to deal with, basically getting up in the morning/afternoon/evening.

Good sleep helps keep a better mental focus, it might also be worth examining your diet to see what elements may cause problems, if any.

16:16 / 23.01.08

Something not from my own experience but which I have heard others talk about: exercise extreme caution if there's any temptation to dedicate yourself to a God or patheon - apparently the powers can take this v seriously and may take over your whole life. You may think on a conscious level that it's a godform that's in your control but your subconscious mind/the powers that be might not agree.

It might not look like such an attractive option in 20 years if you were to find yourself on the crooked route living the life of an itinerant tormented crazy shaman at the whim of some old-skool Gods whilst all your friends have great fun jobs and lovely houses. It might be possible and may be more sensible to work with a particular energy or influence you're drawn to without making life-dedication vows.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

16:41 / 23.01.08

Oh Hel yeah. Always read the small print.

20:01 / 23.01.08

well Iron Pants, i can't wait.

if you run into whomever it is, tell them to hustle.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

20:10 / 23.01.08

hee hee! that's part of the problem - the timing is sometimes not what you want.

making yourself receptive can help. but, to some extent, you can't "force" a major change like this in your life...when the time is right, you'll know it.

then again, coming here asking these questions may be a sign that the time is already right. the line between free will and fate gets pretty blurry here...in some ways, what you want is what They want, and it all kind of synchs up.

don't ignore interesting things that happen because you're expecting something else. don't fail to act on something just because it seems weird or scary or because you don't want to look/feel like a dumbass.

on the other hand, you probably want to avoid doing stuff that will get you fired or arrested.

try feeling out where you want to go and Who you want to go with. if you don't think you know (part of you probably does), try some free association stuff, or just browsing the available options on the internet or at the library or museum.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

20:22 / 23.01.08

exultant: be careful what you wish for. You'll be laughing on the other side of your face if you wake up one day and something like this happens.

21:57 / 23.01.08

Yeah. Just remember that those semi-apocryphal Chinese curses really can be a bitch.

May you live in interesting times
May you come to the attention of those in authority
May you find what you are looking for

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

00:23 / 24.01.08

sorry, I always forget the cautionary bit. listen to TTS, who speaks from experience.

I tend to advise a lot of "don't be afraid to try X!" without adding the rather important "but then again, sometimes you're afraid for a very good reason."

again, try to trust your instincts. don't let anyone, no matter how divine they are, tell you to do something completely at odds with your own moral standards. do some research into the Dark Lord Ungoliant or whoever before you dive in, and get an idea what price you might end up paying. etc.

also I believe a lot of the time people recommend having a little somebody at your side (or a little bit in front) when meeting the big bad boys and girls. maybe a human somebody, or more of a spirit guide intermediary somebody. recently departed ancestors might not be a bad place to start asking questions or assistance, for example.

03:07 / 24.01.08

Of course, you also could have a magical practice that never (or only rarely) involves the invocation or evocation of, or involvement with, anything that might be considered a god, spirit, or other disembodied entity.

Which doesn't necessarily mean you won't crash and burn a few times along the path. Seems to come with the territory.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:58 / 24.01.08

Of course, you also could have a magical practice that never (or only rarely) involves the invocation or evocation of, or involvement with, anything that might be considered a god

Oh sure. Had one myself for about 9 years. Didn't last though.

13:36 / 24.01.08

So a newbie might have, at a minimum, many years before he or she might have to deal with the cautions specific to entity practice raised above.

Seems to me that a lot of the best overall advice already has been noted. Here's what I'd say.

* Read (and listen) voraciously but critically.

* Understand that a lot of what you read and hear about magic will be factually false. This doesn't mean it's useless.

* Understand that a lot of what you read and hear about magic will be based on value judgments you don't necessarily share. This doesn't mean it's useless, either.

* Understand that a lot of what you read and hear about magic will be remarkably dated. This doesn't mean it's useless, but you should keep in mind that more recent thoughts on a given subject might be more developed, or more accessible.

* Experiment. Test what you've learned, or what you think you've learned. Make up your own experiments.

* Don't lose sight of common sense. Trying a banishing ritual in your bedroom: potentially worthwhile experiment. Jumping off your roof: less worthwhile experiment.

* Don't be too quick to commit to a philosophy, school of thought, or method of practice. Chances are eventually something will appeal to you and you can start to focus.

* Don't neglect your physical body. Ever ever ever. Eat a healthy diet. And exercise is your friend.

* Don't neglect your social life. Build one if you need one. And being a magician -- or claiming to be a magician -- doesn't make you superior to anyone in any way.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

14:18 / 24.01.08

So a newbie might have, at a minimum, many years before he or she might have to deal with the cautions specific to entity practice raised above.

really, that's a "minimum"? I kind of got shot right into that, myself. like I said, it wasn't really my idea.

maybe that's unusual...

14:24 / 24.01.08

The key word isn't "minimum," it's "might."

Or might not.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:26 / 24.01.08

I don't think there is a minimum, or a maximum. If it's going to happen it could happen tomorrow, or in 20 years' time; if it's not then it's not. I do believe in flagging the possibility up there though, as a lot of people have reported the experience of unexpectedly getting their collar felt by some Power or other.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

14:52 / 24.01.08

Ev tapped:
"And exercise is your friend."

yes yes yes - dance more often.

15:20 / 24.01.08

I do believe in flagging the possibility up there though, as a lot of people have reported the experience of unexpectedly getting their collar felt by some Power or other.

My concern here (and perhaps this is something best left for another topic) is that particularized warnings of the sort noted above can have a tendency to shape one's interpretation of an event, especially if that event is strange or new:

"I worked with the tarot and my aunt got into a car accident. Guess that was the Great Angel HRU expressing his pique about my failure to shuffle."

"I cast the runes and now I can't sleep. Given what those folks on Barbelith said, I guess Odin is staring at me while I lie in bed at night."

Maybe. Or it was a random event. Or I have no basis for determining why it happened. Or it happened for reasons unconnected with my magical work. Or it happened for reasons connected with my magical work, but not necessarily connected with a deity or other entity.

Just trying to minimize the power of suggestion. Or self-fulfilling prophecies.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:48 / 24.01.08

That is a very important point, yes, and it leads into something I wanted to add.

A lot of people get hung up on the idea that one simply must have a pantheon and at least one patron or one's work is meaningless. They spend loads of time and energy trying to track down this elusive path that they must be on, often failing to recognise that they are already doing amazing work.

You are whole, complete, and sufficient just as you are. You don't need a patron. You don't need Gods, guides, angels, spirits, ghosts, or any other variety of spooky pervert hanging around to be an effective magician. This is, in fact, the corollary of the Getting Your Collar Felt principle: if They want your attention, rest assured that They have ways of getting it. You can safely get on with your own practice without worrying overmuch.

This isn't to say that no-one should ever try and approach a Person of Restricted Embodiment without an engraved invitation, just to say that no-one should ever get hung up on having to have a connection to Anyone specific. Some do, some don't. (In many cases, I'm pretty sure that a person has only ended up with the Divine Patronage badge because ze is a perfect muttonhead and needs more poking along than any mortal can provide.)

20:21 / 24.01.08

"You don't need a patron. You don't need Gods, guides, angels, spirits, ghosts, or any other variety of spooky pervert hanging around to be an effective magician."

i needed to hear that.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:05 / 24.01.08

I think it should be said a lot more, actually. I see people tying themselves into all sorts of knots because they don't have Someone like that in their lives. The world is alive with spirit and energy; so are you.

My Mom Thinks I'm Cool

21:17 / 24.01.08

muttonhead! sounds about right, yeah. I was sort of an unconscious dabbler, at best, before certain Other People got involved.

yep, I agree with pretty much everything here.

I'm going to mention, though, that even if you're not working with Somebody in your magic, you can still get some of the same effects, especially the "I got what I Needed and not what I Wanted" kind, or the "things happening when it's time for them to happen and not just because you think they ought to" kind. in other words, some stuff (maybe, probably?) isn't going to be up to you...or at least not the conscious part of you.

I always have trouble thinking of magic in a non-religious way since it's been linked up right from the start for me.

22:03 / 24.01.08

I always have trouble thinking of magic in a non-religious way since it's been linked up right from the start for me.

There's an incredibly interesting issue that's begging to be explored.

It seems to me that people often tend to conflate magic with religion (or, more broadly, spirituality) even though the two are not always necessarily connected.

Some magical practices are religious/spiritual and some aren't. Some religious/spiritual practices are magical and some aren't.

I'd even argue that it's possible to be an entirely secular magician.

22:05 / 24.01.08

can i drop a question on you guys?

what do you folks think of shamanism? i know that is a bit broad but i am just looking for personal impressions.

i have been talking to a few and something interesting one fellow told me was that there is a fine line between sorcery and shamanism and that there are many sorcerors that call themseves shamans or even think they are shamans, when in fact they are not. he said shamans abide to certain natural and spirtual laws and can only perform magic with the consent of whom upon it is aimed...

eh?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:33 / 24.01.08

It really depends on how one is defining those concepts. What did this one fellow mean by sorcery? What did he mean by shamanism? What do you understand by those terms? Depending on the speaker, Sorceror can mean "guy who does stuff that helps you sort out your material life eg. get a job, keep your humble flat etc." or "evil DARQUE MAGIKIAN who has abandoned the GREAT WORK and PROSTITUTED hir abilities in the service of the RANK MUNDANE."

Likewise the mental shape in his head when he talked about a shaman may be very different from the mental shape I have in my head when I think of a shaman. I've seen the term "shaman" used to mean everything from "person who does a J the size of a shire horse's fetlock preparatory to going out raving on 5 different psychedelics and some tractor fuel" to "person who uses techniques such as guided meditation to achieve hir aims" to "person who went on a 4000 quid retreat in the South of France and is a shaWOMAN, actually" to "person who got dismembered and reconfigured over a period of horrible horrible days whilst suffering from smallpox, underwent a near-death experience, hears voices all the time and gets sick or crazy if ze doesn't do what the voices say."

It's complicated.

22:41 / 24.01.08

his perspective of being a shaman was mainly, a spiritual healer, i take it. he believes in being "called to the way of the shaman" regardless of race or geography. he doesn't seem dependent on plants at all though he didn't discourage them as tools. he did speak of different vibrational planes, 4th, 5th etc. as far as what he meant by sorcery...i assume he just meant magicians in general

Less searchable M0rd4nt

22:55 / 24.01.08

Then he's basically appropriated the term "shaman" to mean something rather distinct from its origial meaning. Nothing wrong with this in itself; "shaman" has become such a loose term over the years that demanding he not use it would be churlish and more than a little unproductive. The problem as I see it is that he wants to keep other people from using the term unless he approves of their practices. Not cool IMO.

For a different take on shamanism, you might want to have a look at this. Be aware that shamanism is a huge field of study and you won't get much from one article, but this may pique your interest and offer new avenues of investigation.

23:16 / 24.01.08

There's many different ways to look at the divisions (I think more like a spectrum) of magical practice, including shamanism...

I think that fellow is drawing the lines in a very different place than anyone else I'm familiar with.

Actually, it sounds like he's drawing the lines along moral divisions, rather than technique, culture, or whatever.

I tend to disagree with definitions like that.

--Ember--

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

23:21 / 24.01.08

not to mention that the Siberian shamans (I believe where ther term originated) are notorious reindeer urine-drinkers (can't let all that fly-agaric go to waste).

I agree that the term has become genericised over the years.

I think less in terms of labelling oneself (I am now a practicing chaos magician of the third circle, 3700 experience points and a magical shaft) than choosing terms that describe one's practice.

enchantment
sorcery
blessings & curses (same thing really)
necromancy
ritual magic
storytelling
spelling
etc...

not that it uncomplicates the issues of definition...

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