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Wonder Woman!!!

 
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
 
Grady Hendrix
18:07 / 12.12.07
"The assumption that sex workers are bad and dirty, the assumption that transvestites or transexuals are especially bad and dirty, the eliding of the two concepts - these are the problematic things about treating "tranny hookers" as the Ultimate Bad Choice. I don't like those elements of what you said: I may be wrong in my assumption that neither do a considerable number of people on the board, but I hope not."

Thanks for the response, I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain your objections. Not to belabor the point, but you know what? I do think sex work, for the most part, is bad. Not really dirty, but definitely bad. I've spent some time both casually and formally with streetwalkers (not paying them! writing about them!) and it was, without a doubt, the sleaziest, most soul-destroying, harmful, BAD BAD BAD world I've ever entered. Of course there are all kinds of sex workers and some talk about it as an exercise in empowerment and get a lot of fulfillment from their jobs. That's great. I think they're greasing a slippery slope for a lot of other people, but it's their choice and their personal experience. What I dislike is applying their personal experience to those in the sex industry who are less fortunate than they are.

I've been in the world of sex work enough to form a personal opinion about it based on direct experience and I think it sucks. I think it destroys women and men. And, to be honest, the most dangerous and depressing sex workers I have ever encountered were trannies. I know several trannies in my personal life and they're all delightful people, to varying degrees. But trannie sex workers that I've encountered have been working the worst corners, in the most dangerous conditions that I've seen.

I didn't want to be a bummer before, and was being lighthearted about trannie hookers, and that turns out to have offended people. And, like I said, my sincere apologies - that wasn't my intention. But I also wanted to take a minute to respond to your comment about sex work. To my mind, it should have a stigma on it because most of it is ugly and bad. Sorry, but that's been my experience.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:07 / 12.12.07
Probably too late to edit my original post, but sorry, yes -- I mixed up my New York _____ papers.

(and dammit, this is another freakin' crosspost now. I'm going back to bed.)

And -- mod hat on -- can we take the whole "sex work" thing to a relevant thread in Switchboard/Head Shop, or start something in Policy if it is really that grating (or Barbannoy if not)? There's still good conversation to be had here about this article and Wonder Woman in general, but we're definitely drifting far off-topic here.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:12 / 12.12.07
That would have worked better if I'd said anywhere that the article wasn't well-written, Haus.

Well, no, Matt. Because if the article is not well-written, and you believe it is, then that merely reinforces the argument about low standards being applied to artefacts in other media about comics.

However, as it happens I did not suggest that you had said that it was well or badly-written, which is rather the point I was making - you were interested in the message rather than the quality of the writing. If you sincerely believe that it is a well-written article, then clearly the idea that you were cheering it for its content rather than its quality - which was poor is mistaken. However, no such idea has so far been proposed, I believe. So, your statement:


There is a dearth of comics-related coverage in mainstream media. I think more comics-related coverage, especially coverage that celebrates changes in direction rather than encouraging Death-of-______, "Event"-driven comics, is a good thing.


And my statement.

Mattshepherd's post is interesting, I think, in highlighting the lower expectations one often finds when dealing with comics-related artefacts in other media. Whereas one might expect an article about physics or art to be well-written, if it is about Wonder Woman it is not only enough but more than expected that it has a positive message.

Are perfectly congruent. On reflection, your subsequent statement of the importance of the "large circulation" of the publication in which the article suggests that I should have added "and that people outside comics might read it". But thank you for your thoughts, which are as ever welcome, although the sarky stuff about Platonic versions doesn't do a lot for you.

Fact check, by the way: it was published not in the New York Post, but in the online section and possibly also the print version of the New York Sun. The New York Post is a right-wing tabloid owned by Rupert Murdoch. the New York Sun is a right-wing broadsheet originally set up by Conrad Black and a group of associates.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:22 / 12.12.07
Well, no, Matt. Because if the article is not well-written, and you believe it is, then that merely reinforces the argument about low standards being applied to artefacts in other media about comics.

Actually, it just reinforces an argument that we have different criteria for "well-written."

And the Post/Sun thing has been pointed out and apologized for above, but I appreciate your thorough attention to detail.

But I'll add the pleadin' hat to the mod hat now: if there is more about Wonder Woman to discuss, let's go for it. If you want to argue semantics about my earlier post, please take it to PM or Barbannoy. Please.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:33 / 12.12.07
Actually, I'd like to protest that misusing the word "semantics" to disparage somebody else's post in the same breath as "mod hat" is irresponsible practice. If you'd like to get a refresher on the dangers of the word "semantics" as a means to try to shut people up, I'm sure I could dig some up, but in lieu of that I would ask you not to do that, as it generally incites rather than reduces offtopic discussion.

Otherwise, I have already commented on the article, and also on Grady's responses to some of the criticisms of it here. I am not certain if you feel that the beliefs about sex work that inform the language used to describe the belief in the ultimate fecklessless of men as opposed to women as recipients of loans, which in turn inform the underlying debate on the superiority of women that makes Wonder Woman such an enduring character is ontopic or not. If we're looking to have a Wiggum thread, probably not.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:49 / 12.12.07
I'm comfortable with "semantics" as used, but if you'd like to PM me, I'd be more than happy to stand corrected. You're perfectly right in saying it would be threadrotty to get into it here.

I honestly don't know if the beliefs about sex work that inform the language used to describe the belief in the ultimate fecklessless of men as opposed to women as recipients of loans, which in turn inform the underlying debate on the superiority of women that makes Wonder Woman such an enduring character is still in the sphere of the Comic Books forum.

I'm still not convinced that it is the "underlying debate on the superiority of women that makes Wonder Woman such an enduring character". Above, Grady says it's something he more or less put forward as a theory.

Do you (or anyone else here) believe that such a debate is responsible for making Wonder Woman such an enduring character?

If not, what accounts for the character's remarkably consistent publication history in the face of what seems to be a perpetual lack of commercial success?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:03 / 12.12.07
A suggestion, Matt. If you want to move a discussion to PM, don't say "I am right/comfortable/other, but please respond in PMs". Simply say "If you would like to continue to discuss this, please respond in PMs". Otherwise, what is the incentive for the other party to feel that the last word in-thread, if being sought so eagerly by you, should not be seen as a thing of value?

Like this:

OK, I'll PM you.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:06 / 12.12.07
Grady Hendrix: please, please, PLEASE listen to the people who are telling you that jokes about transvestite sex-workers are wrong on any number of levels. Go and read some of the threads we've got hanging around on the topics of sex-work and gender. Please. Even if, having done so, you still come away feeling that transvestite sex-workers are a valid source of funnies--humour us, okay? Otherwise I fear that your tenure here will be as short and bitter as a saucer of Angostura.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:30 / 12.12.07
It's an interesting final question, Matt, and here are some thoughts.

I wonder if DC wouldn't be extremely reluctant to fold any remaining WW titles now or in the future, simply because she's one of the three characters they can currently say has been running since their inception in 1944 ~ as indeed the first line of the Wikipedia Wonder Woman entry tells us.

It's almost as if that's one of her prime characteristics. She's one of the Big Three. That's one of her key traits, as a character.

Which is to suggest, I don't think she's much of a character. In that respect, as I think Grady notes in the article, she's quite distinct from Batman and Superman. She doesn't have a broadly-known, easily-graspable origin, or a set of primary traits, or a fictional city-setting associated with her, or a familiar rogues' gallery of grotesques, all of whom seem to echo and twist something about her in a neat, readily-understandable way.

I couldn't tell you much about her, and I count myself as a comics fan; maybe my ignorance of WW disqualifies me, but I could tell you a great deal about Superman without really having bought Superman titles on a regular basis, while Wonder Woman is, to me, a bunch of miscellaneous and probably very out-of-date information. I could tell you her secret identity, describe her costume and weapons; I'd mention Steve Trevor, who's probably been outta-continuity for decades. I know she's made out of clay, but I don't really know how that works or what it means in the stories. I have some idea that her mother took her role for a while. Um... she had an invisible plane.

No doubt there's a rich and complex set of histories about Wonder Woman, but my sense is that she's been rebooted a lot, and none of the reboots have ever really taken. None of them have really lodged in the broader popular consciousness, whereas I think most people in the street could tell you why Batman does what he does, and where Superman comes from, and who they fight, and where they live.

Is it because of the lack of feature-film adaptation? Possibly, but then I think Batman and Superman were comfortably familiar to non-comic-readers before the features of 1978 and 1989, because of film serials, live-action TV and cartoons. Wonder Woman has also had a high-profile, popular TV series, and I'm pretty sure she's appeared in animated cartoons.

Maybe if there'd been a big-budget, successful WW feature around 1985, setting her continuity straight and giving her a potent, accessible origin, she'd be on the same iconic level as Batman and Superman now, in terms of non-fan knowledge.

As it stands, she's a weird contradiction in my eyes: she's treated as an icon of DC and more broadly of the American superhero genre (and by extension, of Western comics), but her details are pretty much unknown to anyone who doesn't actually engage with the primary comics text.

I wonder if her role as an "icon" is to do with her longevity ~ a self-fulfilling phenomenon whereby the longer she's around, the more remarkable it becomes that she's survived, and so she becomes worthy of celebration just because her comic is still being published. But again, I think the fact that she's survived this far could possibly be the key to her survival now ~ I would like to see sales figures for whatever WW titles are on sale in 07, compared to Superman, Batman and whatever the top sellers are, and see whether her comic is allowed to get away with minimal figures.

It'd be interesting to know if there were points in the 20th century where the comic was genuinely about to fold (as I believe happened with Batman a couple of times) and what saved it.

Finally for now, I wonder if that iconic status is something to do, simply, with the costume. Superman looks iconic because he's dressed in the flag. So does Wonder Woman. And she fills a certain visual role, next to Superman and Batman: they clearly fit different mythic aspects of America, as Gotham and Metropolis neatly represent different sides of the mythic American city. Maybe she just seems to fit that part, as some kind of mythic national symbol, next to them, whereas, say, Martian Manhunter and Flash, or Green Lantern and Aquaman, do not. Batman, Superman and Flash would be confusing, with Flash a redundant figure. Flash doesn't say anything extra about American masculinity. Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, as iconic trio, gives the impression of offering a more complete picture.

So maybe that works on a pretty superficial level, distinct from the actual detail of the comics. Maybe the idea of the "Big Three" like that is effective and powerful, and useful to the company, and maybe actual comic sales of Wonder Woman stories are just trickling along on some minimal level, with exceptions made because she's Wonder Woman and DC isn't going to let that title drop now, after 67 years.
 
 
Hieronymus
19:44 / 12.12.07
How is it you can bitch about threadrot, Haus, while making your own long contributions to it... or continue to make your complaints about others taking the "last word" as your last word.... or fail to recognize complaints about your hairsplitting on grammatical errors and syntax for what they are, an overwhelming desire to see you to wrap up any further threadrotting? It's really become a unfortunately reliable nuisance and deviation from a potentially meaty topic. And it's getting mighty old.

Can we see more of the thread please?

I honestly would curious to see Matt's questions tackled, as the topic, last time I checked, regarded Wonder Woman and, possibly as an aside, the author's perspective on transgender. It was not born out of whether or not a PM request has any value to you or to anyone else.

Fer fuck's sake.
 
 
Hieronymus
19:44 / 12.12.07
much thanks to miss wonderstar.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:45 / 12.12.07
I wonder if her role as an "icon" is to do with her longevity ~ a self-fulfilling phenomenon whereby the longer she's around, the more remarkable it becomes that she's survived, and so she becomes worthy of celebration just because her comic is still being published.

Possibly compare with the Martian Manhunter, who doesn't have that continuity. He's always around, always acknowledged in the history of the JLA and included in every incarnation, because it's not the JLA without him. Also, he's sort of the connoisseur's mainstay - he precisely _doesn't_ have public recognition, so it feels like more of a sneaky nod, more like fanservice, to see him in, say, Smallville. However, Martian Manhunter series sell badly, and are cancelled. The will is there, and the affection, but he doesn't have the continuity of publication.

Also, Infinite Crisis - but more on that when I get home.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:47 / 12.12.07
Two posts from hieronymus, neither of them ontopic, one of them a personal and abusive - if rather incoherent - attack.

Bless.
 
 
Ticker
19:47 / 12.12.07
Grady I'd like to point out some problematic language you are using.

- No, I don't think they're funny because they're trannies. I was trying to make a reference to the sleazy stuff men blow their money on, and as far as streetwalkers go, tranny hookers are about as sleazy as it gets. Seriously - work with some one day. It doesn't get any worse.

I know several trannies in my personal life and they're all delightful people, to varying degrees.


The exploitation of sex workers is a a horrible tragic thing but the people themselves are separate beings from this aspect of their lives. Their entire value as a being is not regulated to this one aspect of their social economic position. you are presenting them as two dimensional beings.

One is not automatically a sleazy being because one is a trans sex worker. You are using language which represents an entire spectrum of people in an absolute way. Adding gasoline to the fire of 'I know several' sets yourself up as an expert about someone else's experience. Your experience of transpeople does not make you an expert nor does it gift you the ability to speak about their experience.

If you are seeking to express sleazy universal stereotypes why not the power hungry politician?
 
 
grant
19:49 / 12.12.07
I think there's a far cruder way to say what you're skirting around, miss wonderstarr, and that's that Wonder Woman does have a set of primary traits... or at least one.

She's a superhero for girls.

I think that's why she wound up on the cover of Ms, and on sleeping bags, and on TV, and in the popular imagination. And I think that's why she doesn't need a specific story. Her role is to be a strong female figure.

I'm also not sure I'd read Batman in as unitary a way as you seem to be -- the Adam West gizmo Batman is miles apart from the Dark Knight figure in Bob Kane's and Frank Miller's stories. But I can't dismiss the fact that there is a Big Three, and it's always the same Big Three.
 
 
grant
19:51 / 12.12.07
Jeez, this thread moves quickly. Obviously, a few interposts there...
 
 
Mug Chum
19:55 / 12.12.07
(Sorry for being off-topic)

(Haus)There are, although those who are doing so are usually doing so with bad proofs, just as the microloan example is a bad proof

Yeah, that seemed more likely. But the existence of these other cases where a pretense of scientific validation appears to occur (even if for ten seconds only for most) is a bit jarring and unknown to me.

---

Having clicked on the thread to perhaps get to know the pop icon WW a bit better besides bondage jokes (from DC I only know mostly about Batman and now Superman due to his holyness' run), miss wonderstarr's post is really good material that serves for repeated readings (so thanks for that).

(damn, this thread is faster than a speeding bullet)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:05 / 12.12.07
Possibly compare with the Martian Manhunter, who doesn't have that continuity. He's always around, always acknowledged in the history of the JLA and included in every incarnation, because it's not the JLA without him. Also, he's sort of the connoisseur's mainstay - he precisely _doesn't_ have public recognition, so it feels like more of a sneaky nod, more like fanservice, to see him in, say, Smallville. However, Martian Manhunter series sell badly, and are cancelled. The will is there, and the affection, but he doesn't have the continuity of publication.


I think that's a productive comparison. My thoughts about the iconic "Big Three" and why they work like that were vague, but again, consider if Batman, Superman and Martian Manhunter were the "Big Three", DC's major brandmarks, the company's gift to culture.

Batman and Superman ~ deeply embedded in the popular consciousness through various screen incarnations from the 1940s to the present day, but also, or perhaps because of, the way they so effectively present a myth of light and shadow, a parallel narrative about two orphans one of whom came from outside and became the mightiest champion of American values, one of whom represents the arguably equally-American but less respectable values of getting your own back by doing it your own way, doing it harder, doing it richer, doing it outside the law if necessary. Anyway, you get the idea. They seem to reflect something. They seem to say something about nation. They seem, together, to say more than they say on their own.

Martian Manhunter ~ OK, nobody even knows who he is outside comics, but delve a bit deeper and you find he's a green, alien-looking alien who can change shape and works as a detective. He's got Superman's powers and something of Batman's private-eye schtick, which could actually work, surprisingly, as a third term in the Big Three, but I think it comes across as baffling that here's some green alien as powerful as Superman, but without any of Superman's obvious values and ideals, or his motivation. He's just too hard to put your finger on, too other. He may well tell us a great deal about otherness in America, from immigration to queerness, but identifying that aspect of the character, as Haus suggests, is more of a connoisseur's pleasure.

Wonder Woman, finally ~ I suspect, ironically, she works in the public consciousness of the Big Three because people think she's the female Superman. The broader audience, I think, tends to think of Superman as American, even though people know his origin. I suspect people think Wonder Woman is basically an American patriot. Some kind of peacekeeper, cause she's a woman (I am guessing at the stereotypes that might be in play here) ~ her best-known weapons are bracelets for defence, and a lasso for interrogation, so I think her approach to crime-fighting is probably seen to complement the more underhand, necessary-roughness of Batman and the inventive use of brute force characteristic of Superman.

I believe she's seen as somehow representing and reflecting an aspect of the national (American) myth ~ some kind of American diplomatic figure who will negotiate up to a point, and help out the oppressed, but turn a vaguely-understood "Amazon" fury on anyone who steps out of line.

That's my loose, unfounded general impression of how I suspect the non-comics-fan sees Wonder Woman, and I think that might help to explore why she's in that iconic trio. Again, I hypothesise that this iconic role and her survival this far may be the reason for the non-cancellation of her comics. I don't know how popular she is in sales terms. I suspect a diehard readership.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:08 / 12.12.07

I'm also not sure I'd read Batman in as unitary a way as you seem to be -- the Adam West gizmo Batman is miles apart from the Dark Knight figure in Bob Kane's and Frank Miller's stories. But I can't dismiss the fact that there is a Big Three, and it's always the same Big Three.


Sure... I was thinking of how the average person in the street might reply today if you asked him or her about Batman, and it would probably be shaped now by the most recent film rather than the Adam West version, and I doubt they'd know much about Bob Kane. (I suggest Batman isn't much of a dark knight in the majority of stories by Kane, but that's a different matter).
 
 
Hieronymus
20:11 / 12.12.07
It's certainly an anomaly. No feature film because her story, outside of being part of the Big Three, hasn't really made her a major seller in the comics realm (and thusly no story, rebooted or otherwise, you can readily sink your teeth into)...and yet DC/Warner Bros seem awfully hungry to exploit any other property they can wheel out as a potential franchise. Which is a shame because I still hold to the idea that the story economy of a film would cut the fat from her origins and various reboots.

I would also argue that her iconic value has fallen since the days of the TV show. Her image, of anything, isn't what it used to be. As wonderstarr and the article mentioned, most people don't know a thing about her. My friend's daughter had a hard time seeing anything interesting about Diana, even after I pushed the Justice League cartoons into her little hands. She seemed to find Black Canary and the Huntress cooler.
 
 
grant
20:39 / 12.12.07
it would probably be shaped now by the most recent film rather than the Adam West version, and I doubt they'd know much about Bob Kane. (I suggest Batman isn't much of a dark knight in the majority of stories by Kane, but that's a different matter).

I was trying to nutshell - there's the public vision of the "Holy Mackerel!" goofy Batman and the genuinely spooky Batman. The recent movies have gone both ways on that one (although Nolan's squarely in the "spooky" camp).

Martian Manhunter is, in some ways, the two figures combined - spooky, alien, smart, strong.

I suppose Wonder Woman might be the female Superman - she's certainly a patriotic immigrant with amazing! powers!

I'm trying hard not to make a Jungian shadow/anima reading here, actually, but it does sort of fit. The American dream, split three ways.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
20:50 / 12.12.07
A quick note on Wonder Woman sales figures. I haven't been able to find any from her early days (possibly because I'm using the wrong search engine) but anecdotal reports indicate that she was a big seller and extremely popular when she launched. The only indicator I can find to judge just how popular is that Marston was driving his editors crazy with his continued insertion of bondage devices in the comic and they kept trying to reign him in, but would never do anything that endangered continued publication, mentioning in some memos the "enormous success" and "continued success" of the title.

A 1965 sales chart puts the top ten sellers as:
1) Superman DC 823,829
2) Superboy DC 672,681
3) Superman's Girlfriend
Lois Lane 556,091
4) Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen 554,931
5) Action Comics DC 525,254
6) Adventure Comics DC 520,440
7) Archie Archie 467,552
8) World's Finest Comics DC 465,842
9) Batman DC 453,745
10) Walt Disney's
Comics & Stories (Gold Key) 410,209

Wonder Woman clocks in around number 64:
63) Combat Dell 210,687
64) Wonder Woman DC 209,918
65) Adventures of Jerry Lewis 209,691

In May 1997, the numbers look like this:

Superman, 73,500
Action 69,800
Batman 58,300
Detective 52,600
Wonder Woman 36,900

Then in 2006/2007 you've got this from the direct market estimated sales charts:

08/2006: Wonder Woman #2 — 84,618 (- 36.2%) [ 87,276]

09/2006: –

10/2006: –

11/2006: Wonder Woman #3 — 76,998 (- 9.0%)

12/2006: –

01/2007: –

02/2007: Wonder Woman #4 — 69,860 (- 9.3%)

03/2007: Wonder Woman #5 — 64,414 (- 7.8%)

03/2007: Wonder Woman #6 — 62,458 (- 3.0%)

04/2007: Wonder Woman #7 — 60,168 (- 3.7%)

04/2007: Wonder Woman #8 — 58,772 (- 2.3%)

05/2007: Wonder Woman #9 — 58,561 (- 0.4%)

06/2007: Wonder Woman #10 — 54,472 (- 7.0%)

07/2007: Wonder Woman #11 — 52,983 (- 2.7%)

08/2007: Wonder Woman #12 — 50,880 (- 4.0%)

09/2007: Wonder Woman Annual #1 — 48,395

Basically, at 48,000 copies Wonder Woman sells in the same bracket as either Superman or Action Comics. The problem is that Superman has several titles, as does Batman, each of which sells roughly about the same as Wonder Woman's single title. One thing Dan Didio did say was that they do get a sales bump when Wonder Woman, Batman or Superman makes a guest appearance in another title, but he didn't expand on that.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:53 / 12.12.07
That's my loose, unfounded general impression of how I suspect the non-comics-fan sees Wonder Woman, and I think that might help to explore why she's in that iconic trio.

Little add to this, except, perhaps, that the idea of Wonder Woman as a demi-goddess who comes from elsewhere - her love affair with Steve Trevor seems even more hopeless than the Lois/Clark situation, for example - is involved, somewhere in the general view of the character? One could see her as an embodiment of the statue of Liberty, but isn't there a sense that the statue of Liberty might have been the very thing the invisible plane was designed to avoid.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:12 / 12.12.07
Very interesting stats Grady, thank you.

The only indicator I can find to judge just how popular is that Marston was driving his editors crazy with his continued insertion of bondage devices in the comic and they kept trying to reign him in, but would never do anything that endangered continued publication, mentioning in some memos the "enormous success" and "continued success" of the title.

She was also mentioned in Wertham, in (as I remember) a notorious and bizarre series of ellipses, if that's the term, that describes her and the Amazons as "the holiday girls... the gay girls". So I'd be surprised if there wasn't some modification of the mythos after the Senate Sub-Ctte Hearings, just as there was in Batman. Those hearings closed down a whole lot of crime and horror comics, I believe. If WW wasn't dented and didn't have to dodge, like I say, I'd be surprised.

09/2007: Wonder Woman Annual #1 — 48,395

Basically, at 48,000 copies Wonder Woman sells in the same bracket as either Superman or Action Comics.


I don't think you gave figures for Superman in 2007, and is an annual sale representative of the normal monthly title?

The 48,000 is the lowest figure from recent years. So Action and Superman are on the same sales level as the lowest-selling WW title?

Anyway, if Wonder Woman is on 48,000 odd in 2007, and Batman/Superman titles are selling about as much per title, but with (what?) half a dozen titles for each character, I guess that is pretty low sales.

It surprises me that she's even on the same level as Action and Superman, but perhaps it shouldn't ~ her readership is no doubt die-hard comic fans, but then I bet the people who actually buy Action and Detective are a tiny minority too. That everyone knows Superman's dad's name and Batman's butler doesn't necessarily translate at all into comics sales.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:17 / 12.12.07
I should add that I don't think Wonder Woman has remained popular because there's an ongoing but largely-unspoken debate about whether women are better than men. It could be just as likely that she's remained popular because the type of people who tend to buy comics like reading picture-stories about attractive women in skimpy outfits.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:49 / 12.12.07
wonderstarr: She doesn't have a broadly-known, easily-graspable origin, or a set of primary traits, or a fictional city-setting associated with her, or a familiar rogues' gallery of grotesques, all of whom seem to echo and twist something about her in a neat, readily-understandable way.

I've been thinking about the Rogue's Gallery thing (and the problems faced by Superman and Wonder Woman versus, say, Batman and the Flash) and can definitely see the potential for a strong set of rogues for Diana -- Heinburg's run was pretty lackluster in pacing and production, and the resolution was just stupid, but it did reestablish some of her gallery.

And a lot of them have doctorates, or claim to have doctorates. Doctors Psycho, Cyber, and Poison. Doris Zeul (who may or may be in the process of being co-opted for Ryan Choi) and Barbara Minerva both have doctorates. It was an odd detail, but I still think there's something there with Diana as a truth-muse and bringer of education, understanding, and communication -- as well as counterbalancing her education on Paradise Island and the rigid education hierarchies of "Patriarch's World." Villains like Osira reflect her mythological standing. There's absolutely no reason - and we've debated this before - that Diana can't be just as well-developed as Batman. Why? Because titles about women (particularly "clean" ones like those put out by DC) don't sell as well?

I picked up the first two issues of Simone's run on Wonder Woman today, having avoided the title beyond the Heinburg arc (distended as it was). I hadn't before on the grounds that I just didn't like what I saw whenever I poked my head in during the intervening issues, and Amazons Attack! just seems ridiculous, but I liked the pair of them. Solid, clean, displaying an imperfect understanding of Diana that probably has more to do with her cypher quality in general -- but even still, there's clear evidence that with another issue or two, Simone will have it all worked out. I think part of it is the weird status quo they've set up for her, with the random "Diana Prince does not have powers / Princess Diana does."

Did anyone else read them? There's this thing going on with the Amazons and children that I'm not entirely convinced by but it does lend weight to the reasons for Diana's origin, why Hippolyta would want a child, without necessarily making the Amazons weak (or cut-and-dried).
 
 
Grady Hendrix
22:22 / 12.12.07
Here's the figures for Detective comics:

10/2006: Detective Comics #824 — 62,431 (- 2.8%)

11/2006: Detective Comics #825 — 58,940 (- 5.6%)

12/2006: Detective Comics #826 — 59,657 (+ 1.2%)

12/2006: Detective Comics #827 — 55,031 (- 7.8%)

01/2007: –

02/2007: Detective Comics #828 — 55,206 (+ 0.3%)

03/2007: Detective Comics #829 — 52,943 (- 4.1%)

03/2007: Detective Comics #830 — 52,395 (- 1.0%)

04/2007: Detective Comics #831 — 56,284 (+ 7.4%)

05/2007: Detective Comics #832 — 51,727 (- 8.1%)

06/2007: Detective Comics #833 — 54,104 (+ 4.6%)

07/2007: Detective Comics #834 — 53,461 (- 1.2%)

08/2007: Detective Comics #835 — 50,479 (- 5.6%)

09/2007: Detective Comics #836 — 49,475 (- 2.0%)


And for Superman:
11/2006: Superman #657 — 62,327 (- 3.1%)

12/2006: –

01/2007: Superman #658 — 60,682 (- 2.6%)

02/2007: Superman #659 — 58,258 (- 4.0%)

03/2007: Superman #660 — 57,169 (- 1.9%)

04/2007: Superman #661 — 55,738 (- 2.5%)

05/2007: Superman #662 — 55,236 (- 0.9%)

06/2007: Superman #663 — 53,384 (- 3.4%)

07/2007: Superman #664 — 52,313 (- 2.0%)

07/2007: Superman #665 — 51,936 (- 0.7%)

08/2007: Superman #666 — 53,566 (+ 3.1%)

09/2007: Superman #667 — 48,608 (- 9.3%)

The annual is included there because it's actually a normal issue, the conclusion of Heinberg's run. It came in so late that they ended his arc at his fourth issue, had a fill-in by Pfeiffer and then started up with Jodi Picoult's five issues. The fifth and final issue of Heinberg's run was the annual, issued just before Gail Simone picked up the ball with issue #14, if I remember correctly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:25 / 12.12.07
OK, so, Crisis on Infinite Earths. I realise that talking about why Wonder Woman’s high profile is not matched by sales inside comics or exploitation of her intellectual property outside comics in terms of something that nobody outside comics has ever heard of is a bit of a tangent, but bear with me.

One of the main problems - arguable term, but let’s go with it - that the Crisis was supposed to address was that you had two Batmen, two Supermen, two Justice _things_ of America. Old Batman and young Batman, old Superman and young Superman. Thing is, this doesn’t really apply to Wonder Woman - she’s probably immortal, and she doesn’t necessarily age as we understand aging (opinions seem to differ) - unlike Superman, she doesn’t need to start off as a baby, since her narrative starts when she is injected into “our” society not as a baby but as an adult. This should make things easier, but doesn’t, because you can’t have Wonder Woman kicking around showing up the joins in the other characters' timelines.

Thus is born a godawful continuity kludge which makes the character totally incoherent. Enter the Fury, a character introduced purely for the purpose of taking the place of Wonder Woman in the All-Star Squadron, who is also called Hippolyta, which is also the name of Diana’s mother, who becomes Wonder Womoh my God shoot me.

Wonder Woman was looking for coherence for a fair bit before the Crisis - note her incarnation as a mod superspy, which the recent OYL stuff attempted to refer back to with the white jumpsuit and the TIME membership. However, this really knocked the stuffing out of the character, I think. Grant Morrison was making good progress on getting her back into coherent shape, primarily by ignoring her own series and her backstory, but then got caught by the editors (painful) and had to swap her out for Hippolyta again, so Hippolyta could be killed off in “Our Worlds at War” - which neatly slips between “Kingdom Come” and “Civil War” in the pantheon of comics in which people in tights hit each other while captions relate great speeches by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Livy or God.

Faced with this mess of different agents, I think I’d be less certain of getting name recognition or even a decent kind of a plot out of the property - this before you bring in the scaffolding around the Wonder Women - Cassie Sandsmark, Artemis, Donna Troy et hoc genus omne. All of this _could_ be jettisoned in a film treatment, but the desire to “honour” the franchise, and the desire to bring comic and film treatment vaguely into line with each other for cross-selling purposes create the kind of problems that can end up killing a treatment, as seems to have occurred. So, part of the difficulty Miss W. is having in understanding the character is that the character makes very little sense, which means there are fewer comic-to-mainstream-media transitions, which means and so on. It’s a vicious cycle.

Which sideswipes grant’s statement - I think another problem with the cloudy branding is that Wonder Woman wasn’t conceived as a comic for girls. She was conceived as a comic for men who were into bondage. I’m slightly amused that so far we have only looked at Marston's own selling of this as the accidental arousing of erotic reveries in young men caused by a strong female character. Yeahright. However, you have a limit to the number of people who will want to write that, and how obvious it can be before people will not want to read it - at least in public, and ironically as your audience become more exposed to the idea of superheroines who use their tentacular labia to fight crime (Witchblade, take a bow), the harder it is to have a character who ties people up and makes them say things they don’t want to say but is in no way so associated. An unkind writer might add that possibly some comic book writers are not so happily aligned with their own sexualities as Marston seems to have been. Joe Kelly, if I recall correctly, seemed to go through a period of having Batman joking about Diana’s lassoo offering “bondage therapy” and John Jones being forced to confront his shame and guilt through the healing power of forced confession. However, there is a limit to how much play you can give this in a “clean”, to quote, character, which is awkward.

So, she is a strong female character, who relies largely on a male potential readership and until very recently largely male writers. She is a “character for girls” who wears a miniskirt or skintight lower garment and a straining bustier. She is an alien, sort of, but also a goddess, sort of, and a secret agent, sort of. I’m astounded that she sells 48,000 a month, really.

On the plus side, Gail Simone has a good track record on doing interesting things with compromised properties (Deadshot, Ragdoll III, Catman), and writes good women, so there might be some decent stories, but there just doesn’t seem to be an iconic heft to Wonder Woman’s narrative - no Death and Return of Wonder Woman (I mean, she died and came back, but nobody really noticed) or Wonderfall. Longevity probably helps sales somewhat, assuming that one accumulates a small number of long-term collectors each year, but I can’t really imagine who actually reads Wonder Woman month in, month out. Does anyone here?
 
 
Grady Hendrix
22:28 / 12.12.07
I don't feel like digging around in my notes right now but Marston died in 1947 and his last scripted issue was published in 1948. After that the series became much more about Wonder Woman as a romance object in relation to Steve Trevor with additional bits of mythology such as the fact that if she married Steve she'd lose her powers. Wertham, I think, actually did call Wonder Woman out as a lesbian or encouraging lesbianism, and that did a lot to drive the comic more in a hetero-centric direction, but I got the feeling it was already heading that way. One of the examples that really stands out is mentioned in Les Daniels' great book about Wonder Woman, that the back-up feature of the book was changed from highlighting great women in history to highlighting marriage customs around the world.

As for the villains, I agree. Wonder Woman has never really had an evil doer that sticks out in the pop culture consciousness. Batman's got the Joker, Superman's got Lex Luthor and Wonder Woman has some drag kings, a couple of doctors and the Cheetah. Oh, and Mars. Greg Rucka mentioned that he thought this was one of the biggest problems with the character and one he tried to address by introducing Veronica Cale, but I'm not sure if Veronica Cale is the type of rogue who really will stand the test of time.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
22:41 / 12.12.07
Hausing, I think you're right that Marston was pushing the bondage element but his belief that women were superior to men was a part of that. One of the last lines he wrote was, “The only real happiness for anybody is to be found in obedience to loving authority.” And I think in Wonder Woman he was creating the ultimate fantasy authority figure for himself. From everything I've read about Marston, female superiority and domination seemed as much a component of his sexuality as bondage. I get the feeling that for him the two went hand in hand.

Wonder Woman's been restarted and rebooted so many times because it's what she needs - the table to be swept clean of years of cluttered and complex continuity. Unfortunately it's been done so much that the title has developed a resistance to reboots. Fortunately, it's selling pretty well right now given the book's history and Gail Simone seems committed to keeping her head down, staying out of massive cross-overs and just writing a consistent, straight-forward Wonder Woman comic. She says she's got about a year and a half worth of stories pretty much ready to go, at least in her head.

But for me, the only Wonder Woman I've ever felt excited about reading is Tintin Pantoja's.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:52 / 12.12.07
From everything I've read about Marston, female superiority and domination seemed as much a component of his sexuality as bondage. I get the feeling that for him the two went hand in hand.

Well, yes. That's not wildly uncommon, is it?

(Incidentally, I've just noticed your response over the fold to my seven points. I'm not hugely impressed by a couple of them, but generally I think they close it off pretty well, and the discussion appears to have moved on, so I'm thinking it might be best to leave it.)
 
 
Grady Hendrix
23:02 / 12.12.07
Well I'm not a terribly impressive person, so it stands to reason. I say, let the conversation flow forward to greener pastures and happier meadows. Why journey back to Grumpy Land?

(If you really can't resist, PM or email me. I'm happy to continue the conversation there.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 12.12.07
(Nah, I'm good. I imagine that any unexamined croppers may be come upon later in life, and the corollary was that I thought most of your responses filled in my understanding of where you were going - although if international finance were that keen on women, I'd expect JP Morgan to have had more female CEOs, really . Sorry I didn't see it before - the thread was moving rather frantically for a bit, there.)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:31 / 13.12.07
I can't remember where I heard it, possibly Comics Should Be Good, but I believe it's the case that DC only own the character as long as they give her her own solo title, so part of the problem with the character is trying to find a way to tell stories about someone who, without that caveat, might only be down in the mid-leagues with characters like Damage or Spoiler.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:04 / 13.12.07
One of the main problems - arguable term, but let’s go with it - that the Crisis was supposed to address was that you had two Batmen, two Supermen, two Justice _things_ of America. Old Batman and young Batman, old Superman and young Superman. Thing is, this doesn’t really apply to Wonder Woman - she’s probably immortal, and she doesn’t necessarily age as we understand aging (opinions seem to differ) - unlike Superman, she doesn’t need to start off as a baby, since her narrative starts when she is injected into “our” society not as a baby but as an adult. This should make things easier, but doesn’t, because you can’t have Wonder Woman kicking around showing up the joins in the other characters' timelines.

As I've said, I'm no expert on Wonder Woman, but I believe there was a younger version of the character ~ in fact, two young versions, a teenager and a baby ~ around the same time as we were seeing the adventures of Superboy and Superbaby. I suppose we should count ourselves lucky there was never a Bat-baby (though there was of course a Bat-mite).


Also, the Earth-Two Wonder Woman from Infinite Crisis does seem to have aged. I'm referring to wikipedia here. (I did a link, twice, but it banjaxed twice)

As for her adventures starting as an adult, that online authority tells us "although not named Wonder Girl, Diana was originally introduced as a girl in "All-Star Comics #8", 1941, and a back story in the Wonder Woman comic as a teen-aged Princess Diana of the Amazons in Wonder Woman v1 #23, May-June 1946, Written by Charles Moulton A.K.A. William Moulton Marston and designed by H.G. Peter"

But that just goes to show that it was even more of a mess than you're suggesting.

Faced with this mess of different agents, I think I’d be less certain of getting name recognition or even a decent kind of a plot out of the property - this before you bring in the scaffolding around the Wonder Women - Cassie Sandsmark, Artemis, Donna Troy et hoc genus omne. All of this _could_ be jettisoned in a film treatment, but the desire to “honour” the franchise, and the desire to bring comic and film treatment vaguely into line with each other for cross-selling purposes create the kind of problems that can end up killing a treatment, as seems to have occurred.

It could have been jettisoned, and I'd say it was in the case of all the recent Batman and Superman movies, which choose one line of continuity to follow, or conflate a few to create their own. It's interesting that Wonder Woman should inspire this loyalty to the "franchise", when the WW franchise is really just the brand, the image as far as I can see, rather than even a few basic key traits (except that she's a woman, she's got super-strength, a lasso and an American-flag costume). Nobody seems to have taken up a Batman film project and given up because they can't fully honour the complexity of a character who both scares the shit out of gangsters and has his own personal flying saucer. Nobody abandons the Superman movie because they feel they have to work in the mullet and the blu-ray version of the character. They just trimmed it down to whatever basics seemed to work at the time, and filled in details at odds with both continuity and, arguably, the whole idea of the character (eg. Michael Keaton's version having a girlfriend in the Batcave).

And that's Superman and Batman, who you would have thought film producers, screenwriters and directors would be more reluctant to mess with than Wonder Woman, whose mythos is barely-known. In the late 1980s I believe Burton announced that his movie was too big to care about the fans. The fans were a miniscule slice of his audience. It didn't matter if fans stayed away (I think they didn't, anyway).

Why this tangled loyalty to Wonder Woman? Maybe a movie needs to be written by someone who doesn't really care about the continuity ~ someone apparently unlike Joss Whedon.
 
  

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