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Wonder Woman!!!

 
  

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Grady Hendrix
14:06 / 11.12.07
I couldn't find the thread where I was asking people what they thought about Wonder Woman in order to steal their ideas for an article I was writing, so I'm starting this one to let folks know that the article is up online.

Two things that really came across in doing way too many interviews for this piece and reading way too many issues of Wonder Woman are 1) the huge gap that exists between Wonder Woman fans and the current Wonder Woman comic book; 2) that what has made Wonder Woman last so long is largely owed to William Marston.

If there's a primal idea to Wonder Woman it's the one Marston really believed in: women are better than men. Wonder Woman is an embodiment of this idea as much as Superman is an embodiment of Truth, Justice and the American Way and Batman is an embodiment of the idea of justice. Or whatever he's the embodiment of these days: sweet, sweet love-making? Frank Miller's id? With Democrats choosing between Clinton and Obama this year I find that a lot of discussions soon veer away from the question of, "Will Clinton be a better president than Obama?" and into the more primal territory of "Would a woman be a better president than a man?" The world of international finance has already weighed in on this discussion, coming down firmly on the side of women. Banks that make micro-loans to struggling communities refuse to give money or credit to men because they've found they get over a 90% repayment rate when loaning to women, and they found that women reliably and regularly use the money to better their lives and the lives of other folks in their communities. Men usually blow it all on cheap hootch and tranny hookers.

Wonder Women seems to exist to give voice to this politically incorrect, almost unspeakable point of view. It's one of those questions that can never be answered but that reverberates with people on a gut level, the way the current debate over "Are whites smarter than blacks?" seems to keep taking up space. It's unanswerable, it can't be proven, it's sort of pointless even if you could prove it, yet it jibes with some of our deepest assumptions and prejudices.

The more I read about Marston the more I liked him and I really do think that Gail Simone's run, at least based on the first issue, is a return to that kind of energy he brought to the book: a superior woman trying to change the world, run through with a strong whiff of eroticized sexuality. Totally healthy! As Marston once wrote in response to his editor pulling out his hair over the bondage fans who were writing in to Wonder Woman, “You can’t have a real woman character in any form of fiction without touching off many readers’ erotic fantasies. Which is swell, I say – harmless erotic fantasies are now generally recognized as good for people.”

Also, just so folks know, I picked the 1944 start date for DC Comics because that was the year that they absorbed All-American comics which was the last slice of their pie in the early days.
 
 
Slim
21:19 / 11.12.07
Banks that make micro-loans to struggling communities refuse to give money or credit to men because they've found they get over a 90% repayment rate when loaning to women, and they found that women reliably and regularly use the money to better their lives and the lives of other folks in their communities. Men usually blow it all on cheap hootch and tranny hookers.

Umm...what?
 
 
Aertho
21:29 / 11.12.07
I couldn't find the thread
 
 
FinderWolf
02:47 / 12.12.07
well-done article - interesting to learn more about WWM! Nice work, Grady!
 
 
Grady Hendrix
03:43 / 12.12.07
Thanks for the link to the thread. For some reason I couldn't find it on "search."

The micro-loan thing is crazy, isn't it. Like scientific proof that women are more responsible than men. There's the flawed wikipedia entry, then there's this sort of girl power piece by the US State Department, and finally there's a piece in the Star Tribune . But yeah, women apparently are better risks than men. I thought it was weird too.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:13 / 12.12.07
So the thing about "cheap hootch and tranny hookers" is teh scientific fact, then? It may not be politically correct, but it is proven by teh science so hah, in your face!


...I don't think Slim was saying "what?" in awe or anything.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:10 / 12.12.07
Do you really have to describe Gail Simone as 'fan favourite and ex-hairdresser' Grady? Way to minimise what she's done in the industry. I'll buy you a drink if you write an article about Stan Lee describing him as a 'sandwich deliverer and newspaper subscription salesman'.
 
 
Spaniel
10:01 / 12.12.07
Fucking ditto
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:59 / 12.12.07
The ex-hairdresser comment was inserted by the copy editor after I filed the piece and I wasn't aware of it until it hit print. I think it was their attempt to be snarky but I thought it came off as tacky and apologized to Gail Simone about it. She said it didn't bother her and she's not ashamed of her former career, which was nice of her to say.

It's frustrating, but that's working in newspapers. Your name's going out on something and sometimes you aren't 100% in control.

Besides, it's hair stylist. Never hair dresser.
 
 
Spaniel
13:50 / 12.12.07
Shit, man, that's rough
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:13 / 12.12.07
Indeed. How did the copy editor even know that Gail Simone was formerly a stylist? I mean, who on Earth knows that as general knowledge?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:16 / 12.12.07
I'd like to repeat my question about the scientific basis for the bit about "tranny hookers".
 
 
Grady Hendrix
14:45 / 12.12.07
There was just a piece on Gail Simone in the New York Times and they mentioned - about fifty times - that she had been a hair stylist before writing comic books. It was weird that they were so fascinated by it - like they'd never heard of a writer having a day job before - and people in the New York newspaper world (or at least my small part of it) have been making fun of it.

As for the tranny hookers, according to a piece in the New York Times I read a few years ago talking about micro-loans down Mexico way, the head of one of the loan divisions at a bank that was expanding its micro-loan business said that men would take the money and spend it on - if I remember correctly - booze, leaving their families and moving away, their mistresses, or they'd make other bad choices with it. In my world, the ultimate Other Bad Choice is, of course, tranny hookers. Seriously, haven't you ever been on top of the world, having a great day, driving along, and you think, "I'm feeling so great, let me give that tranny hooker a ride to wherever he or she is going." And then...well...just ask Hugh Grant and Eddie Murphy how that turns out.

Tranny hookers...always the wrong solution.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:50 / 12.12.07
Right, glad we got that cleared up.

Now here's a suggestion: take this time machine - this one here -



- and use it to go back in time to precisely the moment in time when your interactions with Barbelith led you to believe it to be a place where joking about "tranny hookers" being "always the wrong solution" would go down well.

Then, make a different choice.
 
 
Aertho
15:16 / 12.12.07
Grady, "the post you couldn't find" was only on the second page in this forum. Titled "Wonder Woman's Birthday", and authored by you.

I find it hard to believe you even looked... and THAT's where you lost me. Still, I read on.

Regardless of your questionable diction, and out of step sense of humour, I feel you're ignoring a great bit of cultural history and making enormous leaps of thought from harmless erotic fantasies to female superiority to low-risk business loans on the basis of gender.

I'm not convinced you even read the thread you started before and I linked above.

Also: The Maid of Steel is Supergirl.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
15:39 / 12.12.07
I did do a search on "Wonder Woman" and the previous thread didn't pop up. Sorry that lost you.

You're right, by the way, Maid of Steel is Supergirl. But besides the Amazing Amazon I couldn't think of a good nickname for Wonder Woman that had a ring to it. The Astounding Amazon? The Wonderous Woman?

I'm not sure why, on a Grant Morrison board, of all place leaps in reasoning are annoying, rather than encouraged. I think there's absolutely two reasons Wonder Woman is still published:

1) She's a merchandising goldmine and has considerable financial value for DC.
2) She's managed to tap into a debate that goes unspoken a lot of the time but that really resonates among people: are women better than men? There are definitely places, like in the micro-loan industry, where women are better than men, they're better risks, they're better money managers, etc. And every now and then someone publishes some data about experiments that show men or women excel in some area more than in the other which usually stirs up a lot of coverage of the issue, usually more than the limited experiments warrant if they weren't reflective of this larger debate. And I certainly think in the US right now there's a lot of argument over whether a woman would exercise a different approach to foreign policy based solely on her gender. Wonder Woman gives a voice to all that. She was never intended to be a feminist icon of female equality to men, she was intended by Marston to be an icon of female supremacy to men. Which I think is fascinating, since it flies in the face of the assumption by a lot of folks in comics that Wonder Woman is somehow related to feminism. It kept coming up in the interviews I was doing and I felt like it really missed the point. Almost like asking if Wonder Woman had something to do with socialism - it's an entirely unrelated idea applied for no other reason than the fact that Wonder Woman is a woman and once appeared on the cover of MS. magazine.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:45 / 12.12.07
I'm not sure why, on a Grant Morrison board

It's really a shame we didn't change that name.
 
 
Aertho
15:48 / 12.12.07
on a Grant Morrison board

Stop now.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
16:19 / 12.12.07
I agree. Grant who? In fact, why don't we form a ring around the next person who mentions his name and dance around them chanting an insulting rhyme. I can see no better way to teach them a lesson as to the difference between the cool kids on this board who are insiders and those who are less cool and therefore outsiders.

Suggestion number two: if anyone mentions that Grant fellow again let's not let them sit at our table at lunch? 'kay? If we don't have cliques then there's no way to judge our own worth, is there?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:21 / 12.12.07
Grady, why not address On Final's concerns upthread?
 
 
Grady Hendrix
16:22 / 12.12.07
By the way, Aertho, the post in question definitely doesn't come up when doing a search on "Wonder Woman." Is something wrong with the search engine? It's searchy-ness seems in question.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
16:23 / 12.12.07
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to address that hasn't already been said.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
16:26 / 12.12.07
The Barbelith search engine runs on fairy dust and moonbeams, and provides results that often might be described as fanciful.

The more reliable search method is to use:

"search term" site:barbelith.com

in Google -- this turns up rather a lot of WW-related results.

On the whole, I'm happy to see a positive WW article in the mainstream press, particularly one oriented on a healthy change in direction for the character in terms of having a decent writer.

Too much comics coverage is focused exclusively on "Death/Major Character Change of Given Iconic Character," so a "hey, this might turn out well" tone is a nice change of pace.
 
 
Aertho
16:29 / 12.12.07
Grady, this may be an effort in futility, but my major criticism of your article and of your posting style is that you seem to not read and to not understand others —and do not hesitate to post your own opinions before an attempt is made at grasping what is being delivered to you.

This site has long been adamant about being something other than a Grant Morrison forum. It may have started that way LONG ago, but it's far from that now. Even frequent lurkers know that.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
16:51 / 12.12.07
Aertho, this may be an exercise in futility but I fail to see why you continue to fixate on the use of the name of He Whose Name Shall Not Be Mentioned and ignore my longer response to the hazy criticisms you originally registered which I'm more than happy to debate and discuss.

First you get up my nose about not finding the earlier post on Wonder Woman. I explain that it didn't show up in the search engine (I know, I know, I'm an idiot for thinking that the box marked "search" might actually do what it says, but I guess I'm a naive optimist). Then you register a lot of airy objections to the article which I address, maybe not in a manner you find satisfactory, but instead of engaging with that you proceed to object to the use of the Name of the Man Who Cannot Be Named.

I'm sure this time around you'll find a way not to address the main point I'm making here (for reference: let's return this discussion to Wonder Woman) but instead focus on some minor faux pas that offends your sensibilities.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:56 / 12.12.07
On the search function: yes, the search function is basically utterly borked. You're better off going to google and searching with the string "site:http://www.barbelith.com".

As such, it is not fair to criticise Grady for not being able to find his original thread. Things it may be fair to criticise Grady for include:

1) Blaming his copy editor for the bit about Gail Simone being a hairdresser.

2) Also wandering off into the stuff about William Marston's private life, which is what every piece about Wonder Woman does to add a bit of spice (he invented the polygraph! He was polyamorous!).

3) Claiming that Barbelith is a Grant Morrison fansite in the belief that the holy name of Grant will silence criticism. Then, when it is pointed out that it will not, being a whiny victim about it, demonstrating that he has not done the one thing that he was expressly asked to do when joining Barbelith - read the FAQ, to avoid precisely such fuckery as this.

4) Claiming repeatedly and without substantiation that the reason for Wonder Woman's popularity is that she evokes a wider debate about whether women are better than men. Particular points lost for then stating that this debate is usually unspoken (and thus not a debate). This is particularly odd when half the thrust of the article is that Wonder Woman is not successful, compared to Batman and Superman. See also "politically incorrect" and "unspeakable".

5) Telling us what feminism is and does in a sentence.


6) Making a statement like:

The world of international finance has already weighed in on this discussion, coming down firmly on the side of women.

And then offering in substantiation anecdotal evidence from one very, very small part of international finance - the microloans system. This is like saying:

The world of football has already weighed in on the discussion, coming down firmly on the side of the inherent superiority of women, because one linesman in the English Premier League is in fact a lineswoman.

7) Tranny hookers. They're funny - because they're trannies!

I think that pretty much covers it, but YMMV.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:01 / 12.12.07
Crosspost - and thinking that clumsily grafting the words of the person one is responding to onto one's response is a brilliant debating tactic, rather than a bain et douche - playground style.

Mattshepherd's post is interesting, I think, in highlighting the lower expectations one often finds when dealing with comics-related artefacts in other media. Whereas one might expect an article about physics or art to be well-written, if it is about Wonder Woman it is not only enough but more than expected that it has a positive message. See also the enthusiasm for films of comic books, where, even if the film is manifestly bad, at least it is getting Daredevil out there...
 
 
Spaniel
17:07 / 12.12.07
Just to add:

No one gives a shit whether you mention Grant Morrison. People only give a shit when posters appeal to him as if he's the patron saint of Barbelith.

So please stop with that bloody "he who must not be named" arse. It's utter, utter bollocks.
 
 
Mug Chum
17:21 / 12.12.07
the way the current debate over "Are whites smarter than blacks?"

There are people debating that?

Outside "Sheet-heads" meetings?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:34 / 12.12.07
There are, although those who are doing so are usually doing so with bad proofs, just as the microloan example is a bad proof either for the inherent superiority of women or for its acknowledgement by the world of international finance.

Most notably, recently, Nobel prize-winner James Watson apppeared to be saying that Africans were genetically less predisposed to intelligence than Europeans; he subsequently claimed that he had done no such thing, but has not so far successfully adumbrated what he _did_ mean to say. William Saletan provided a rather salutary if unintentional lesson on how this throws down by discussing the supporting "scientific" material for such a claim, without noticing that one of the studies on which he based most of the putative argument for a genetic difference, was coauthored by ... well, let me quote Saletan directly:

For the past five years, J. Philippe Rushton has been president of the Pioneer Fund, an organization dedicated to "the scientific study of heredity and human differences." During this time, the fund has awarded at least $70,000 to the New Century Foundation. To get a flavor of what New Century stands for, check out its publications on crime ("Everyone knows that blacks are dangerous") and heresy ("Unless whites shake off the teachings of racial orthodoxy they will cease to be a distinct people"). New Century publishes a magazine called American Renaissance, which preaches segregation. Rushton routinely speaks at its conferences.

There's a lengthy skewering of Saletan's articles here.

The general consensus seems to be that we do not currently have a tool that can tease out genetic presdisposition to smartness from all other social, environmental and cultural factors, and that believing that the IQ test is such a tool is at best naive and at worst highly politicised.


Is there a great, constantly rolling internal debate about whether white people are smarter than black people, occasionally roiling up into view in mediated forms - to use the same sort of examples, say, underpinning a discussion of whether Obama is smarter than Clinton - well, no, I don't think so. Do people potentially bring their issues about race to what they feel to be clear-eyed debates? Yes, no doubt, just as they do with their issues about gender.
 
 
Axolotl
17:36 / 12.12.07
I think he's referring to works such as The Bell Curve, which though underpinned by a certain sheet-wearing mentality, is/was considered an attempt to undertake such discussion. Personally I think it's cobblers, but ymmv. I think there's a couple of threads in the Lab if anyone wants to read further.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:44 / 12.12.07
Cross-posted from a PM, with edits for the privacy of the one Grady sent me:

The assumption that sex workers are bad and dirty, the assumption that transvestites or transexuals are especially bad and dirty, the eliding of the two concepts - these are the problematic things about treating "tranny hookers" as the Ultimate Bad Choice. I don't like those elements of what you said: I may be wrong in my assumption that neither do a considerable number of people on the board, but I hope not.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
17:52 / 12.12.07
Thanks, I appreciate the points. Let me see if I can respond.

1) Blaming his copy editor for the bit about Gail Simone being a hairdresser.
- It's what happened, but because my name is on the article I'm ultimately responsible that it's in there. I did do the right thing and apologize directly to Gail Simone, so my conscience is pretty clear at this point.

2) Also wandering off into the stuff about William Marston's private life, which is what every piece about Wonder Woman does to add a bit of spice (he invented the polygraph! He was polyamorous!).
- Marston's private life is relevant to Wonder Woman, the same way any writer's private life is relevant to their creations. I find Marston remarkably well-adjusted for a guy who was living an alternative lifestyle at a time when living an alternative lifestyle could be very dangerous. He was also using Wonder Woman as "propaganda" (his word, not mine) to teach the world that women were superior to men, something he believed in very deeply, from everything I can tell. I also think his Wonder Woman is one of the best incarnations, and I believe it's one of the best precisely because he was putting so much of his personal life into the stories.

3) Claiming that Barbelith is a Grant Morrison fansite in the belief that the holy name of Grant will silence criticism. Then, when it is pointed out that it will not, being a whiny victim about it, demonstrating that he has not done the one thing that he was expressly asked to do when joining Barbelith - read the FAQ, to avoid precisely such fuckery as this.
- Sorry for the "fuckery." I wasn't invoking Grant's name to silence criticism, I was making a joke. I probably should have put one of those little emoticons at the end of the original sentence - maybe one that was doing a little wink? If I came across as whiny I apologize. I hate whiners. Tone is difficult to convey online, and it was silly of me to think the jokey tone of that comment would be clearly communicated to people who are obviously very sensitive about this board's connection to Grant Morrison. Yeah, come to think of it, I probably should have used a winky face.

4) Claiming repeatedly and without substantiation that the reason for Wonder Woman's popularity is that she evokes a wider debate about whether women are better than men. Particular points lost for then stating that this debate is usually unspoken (and thus not a debate). This is particularly odd when half the thrust of the article is that Wonder Woman is not successful, compared to Batman and Superman. See also "politically incorrect" and "unspeakable".
- You're right that I used the word "debate" incorrectly. I probably should have said "internal cultural debate." The idea of one gender being superior to another is one that crops up in the press quite a bit, the same way that those godawful debates on race and intelligence crop up on a regular basis. It's a non-politically correct idea that attracts people like moths to a flame. These questions/issues/whatever-you-want-to-call-them seem to strike a nerve with people, giving the amount of attention and responses they receive when they crop up, and as a society we should leave them alone. I mean, any sane person knows that one gender can't be "superior" to another any more than one race can be "superior" to another. And yet people keep circling around these issues, coming back to them again and again. They obviously resonate with folks on a very basic level. When looking at Wonder Woman you have to wonder why she's survived for sixty-six years. It can't all be crass commercialism. I posited in the article that the reason she survived is because of a resonant idea her creator embedded in her: women are superior to men. I may be right, and I may be wrong, but that's what I think. Glad you disagree. That's the spice of life!

5) Telling us what feminism is and does in a sentence.
- The article wasn't about feminism, and I didn't have room to give a complete history. But at its most basic level, yes, feminism is the politics of gender equality. I'm not sure what the problem is with that description. There are many different aspects to feminism, but they all start from the basic assumption that the genders should be treated as equal.

6) Making a statement like:

The world of international finance has already weighed in on this discussion, coming down firmly on the side of women.

And then offering in substantiation anecdotal evidence from one very, very small part of international finance - the microloans system. This is like saying:

The world of football has already weighed in on the discussion, coming down firmly on the side of the inherent superiority of women, because one linesman in the English Premier League is in fact a lineswoman.
- I expanded on this in a post up the thread.

7) Tranny hookers. They're funny - because they're trannies!
- No, I don't think they're funny because they're trannies. I was trying to make a reference to the sleazy stuff men blow their money on, and as far as streetwalkers go, tranny hookers are about as sleazy as it gets. Seriously - work with some one day. It doesn't get any worse. I'd use another phrase if I was writing that post all over again since this one phrase seems to have offended a large number of people and that was not my original intention. I just wanted to make a colorful and evocative word choice. My sincere apologies to folks who are offended.
Also, I did respond jokingly to the original trannie hooker objections with a post about Hugh Grant and Eddie Murphy. I should have responded in a much more sober and serious frame of mind. To be honest I thought someone objecting to "tranny hookers" on a board where multiple obscenities show up with some regularity had to be kidding at first. Obviously, I know better now.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
17:53 / 12.12.07
Mattshepherd's post is interesting, I think, in highlighting the lower expectations one often finds when dealing with comics-related artefacts in other media. Whereas one might expect an article about physics or art to be well-written, if it is about Wonder Woman it is not only enough but more than expected that it has a positive message.

(crossposted, obviously)

That would have worked better if I'd said anywhere that the article wasn't well-written, Haus.

I agree that the stuff about Marston's private life wasn't necessary, and the position that Wonder Woman inspires some sort of perpetual "Girls vs. Boys" debate comes from out of left field, and the apparently copy-editor-added (and I'm willing to give Grady the benefit of the doubt) hairdresser bit was dumb.

But it was a well-written article summarizing the character, her recent history, the problems the character has faced over the decades, and a hopefully-better future for WW. Broad strokes, but written for people who presumably only remember her hazily as a member of the Super Friends or whatnot.

There is a dearth of comics-related coverage in mainstream media. I think more comics-related coverage, especially coverage that celebrates changes in direction rather than encouraging Death-of-______, "Event"-driven comics, is a good thing.

I can see how it's tempting to conflate that argument with the celebration of terrible movies based on comics properties, but that's not something I've ever said (to my recollection).

I'd much rather have a positive, if mildly flawed, article on Wonder Woman in the New York Post than no article at all.

I'm sure there are probably more perfect articles that exist in the Platonic sphere of ideal Wonder Woman journalism, but given that nobody here seems to be spewing them forth and getting them published in large-circulation media, I am indeed pleased to take what I can get.

So good on you, Grady.
 
 
grant
18:01 / 12.12.07
If it helps, copy editors are always inserting things I dislike into my copy - I think that's their job, sometimes.

Oh, and Henrix writes for the Sun, not the Post - the same paper Poe did his balloon hoax for. That Sun has a smaller circulation and is less virulently tabloid-populist.
 
  

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