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Comics and architectural landscapes

  
  

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yawn - thing's buddy
15:03 / 07.10.07
So if you were going to do an exhibition about comic books and architecture, which examples would you focus on?

who are the key artists?

which comics and comic book characters contain strong architectural readings?

there's the obvious ones: batman and gotham are inextricably linked, so are superman and metropolis.....and let's face it, spidey could never have swung from his webs in a low rise town or city - he NEEDED skyscrapers....

chris ware's america is an obvious choice, so perhaps is Moore and Campbell's London in From Hell. Certainly Watchmen's carbon-free new york is distinct - and vital to the story and plot - as well as being drawn with the hand of a true draughtsman....

morrison's love of architecture is well known...but how could that be shown?

moebius - we all know his influence on blade runner, star wars etc...

those belgian guys who set their stories in the fictional city of Urbicande are kinda interesting....

and mega city one of course.

any ideas, thoughts.....
 
 
Panic
16:42 / 07.10.07
Much of Dean Motter's work dwells on themes of architecture, urban planning and sociolgy. MR. X centers on a city that's driving its inhabitants mad, and the architect trying to correct it. TERMINAL CITY and its sequel both take place in an Art Deco/World's Fair-run-amuck future that's slowly decaying. Also, ELECTROPOLIS covered the same themes, but I'm drawing a blank on the story right now.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:51 / 07.10.07
morrison's love of architecture is well known...but how could that be shown

You could always begin with The Manhattan Guardian, which contains a New York populated by buildings by, among others, Guadi, Frank Lloyd Wright, and Hans Hollein that were planned but never built for the NYC we know.

Link to a New York Times news story on the above
 
 
Mug Chum
18:47 / 07.10.07
- Might not be the example you're looking for but, even not being a big lover of Transmetropolitan, I've always found the city there particularly alive in the sense of being at the same time something alien to our times (like our times would be to a medieval citizen) and normal-understandable (not alien enough, me thinks) due to our POV through Spider Jerusalem's in a way the urban landscape was sometimes unique in its symbols of social circulation and living/working spaces. I can't remember if it was constantly presented in a way you'd find useful, though.

- Jamie DeLano's and Frank Quitely's 2020 had some nice bits as well (if I remember the ending correctly, high cristalyne sterile towers that concentrated the rich folks -- altitude instead of suburbs etc; not really sci-fi considering higher floors are more expensive wanting to get away from traffic-street noise or just "get away" in more vague senses, without mentioning social status etc -- but I remember the disposition of the buildings in the city and their designs being quite something).

But Moore's From Hell certainly is one of the big ones, it seems. Remembering the obsessive symbolic/historical-geographical mapping bits from his book "Voice of Fire" suggests he might have played with architecture in unique ways many times, so you might want to take a further look into him.

(I never saw what was the big deal in GM's New York)
 
 
sleazenation
19:28 / 07.10.07
I'd go for Jason Lutes, just for the shere amount of detail he puts onto his work.

Jar of Fools, for the architecture of rainswept Seattle, complete with all the detritus of modern living.

Berlin for the period architecture of, well, Wehrmacht Berlin.

Something else I noticed recently was how rich and well researched the backgrounds were in many Commando comics, so it might well be worth checking one of those out (at £1.20 an issue this has got to be one of the cheapest comics money can buy).
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
19:36 / 07.10.07
yawn - thing's buddy: great thread. IMVHO exactly the kind of left-field, cross-genre thread needed on the 'lith's comics forum.

In terms of Moore, his treatment of Hawksmoor in 'From Hell' is very compelling (although it draws more than a little on Peter Ackroyd, among others). How about 'The Hoop' in 'The Ballad of Halo Jones' - Moore's housing project for 'increased leisure citizens' tethered off the coast of NYC? On a 2000AD tip, Mills, O'Neill and Talbot's Gothic Empire in 'Nemesis Book 3' is pure steampunk goodness (the floating, heli-carrier-like Lords Cricket Ground!). Fuck it, 'Nemesis' is full of amazing fantasy architecture, esp. Termite (a subterranean fascist state with incredible, tubular freeways). Early-ish Judge Dredd (esp. Block Wars) also did a nice line in out-of-control high-rises. SMS's rendition of the 'Eternal City' in 'ABC Warriors: The Black Hole' is extraordinary, like a 4th Millenium Guadi. Away from 2000AD, Bryan Talbot's treatment of the Sydenham iteration of the Crystal Palace (arguably the first Modernist building) in 'The Adventures of Luther Arkwright' is also rather special.

My all time favourite piece of comics architecture, however, has to be Superman's Fortress of Solitude. Reason is simple: it's a museum for only one person. In other words, an educational environment in which Supes learns (imperfectly) to be a Krytonian, and perhaps human too.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
22:43 / 07.10.07
James Robinson's Opal city in 'Starman' is very much a character in the bigger story. Robinson and Harris put a tonne of work into making that city breathe history. The whole of Starman is in some way a love letter to a meta-city.
 
 
TimCallahan
01:36 / 08.10.07
I'm putting together a book of essays on the Legion of Super-Heroes, and one of the contributors, Sara Ellis, wrote a brilliant analysis of the Silver Age Legion "architecture of the future." She found it to be fertile ground.

(The book is tentatively called "Teenagers from the Future")
 
 
grant
01:58 / 08.10.07
Grendel - look for the Grendel thread. I scanned some of the Matt Wagner stuff from the first run. Big deco buildings.
 
 
garyancheta
03:57 / 08.10.07
Astro City is a good architectural city. The interesting thing about the city is that the whole city is made up of homages to previous comic works and/or creators. The City itself is the only constant, so it works well as a comic book city.

The city in Alan Moore's Top 10 works the same way as Astro City. Again, the city is made up of previous creations and/or have homages to previous creators.

There's Metropolis Y2K, a city that is turned "into the future" due to a virus that attacks Metropolis in the year 2000...which was very similar to the Y2K fears of the 2000. It was a neat neo-futuristic city that reminded me of an updated version of Fritz Lang's Metropolis. I would pick up the "Secret Files: Superman" from that year because it had a nice little piece about the geography of Metropolis.

Watchmen treats New York in a very interesting fashion. True to Alan Moore's form, the whole of New York City itself is built along grids that both contain and examine explosions of design. I wrote a great paper about how the New York of Watchmen fits quite nicely with Rem Koolhaas' Manifesto for Manhattan.

I've always thought city design held some sort of special power with a lot of early creators. Jack Kirby's initial work seemed to be inspired by a very pedestrian view of perspective as compared to large buildings in New York. Will Eisner also seemed to be influenced by blocks and cityscapes...especially in his later stories where he writes these little loveletters to New York and the inhabitants of New York. Along with Yiddish Theatre, cityscapes and set designs were big influences on comic creators in the Golden Age because many of them had to do art design and theatre construction for extra money. I think this, in particular, helped many comic writers and artists attempt to configure interesting stories with a similar perspective of layer and creating different visual planes from their theatre design.
 
 
Spaniel
08:51 / 08.10.07
Aaaaaaahfuckingcocks!

I just wrote a bloody long post to this thread which I then accidentally deleted. I am teh FOOL.

Basically it said this: The superhero relationship with architecture is often (usually?), if not always, about conquering the space, whether that be flipping from flagpole to rooftop, leaping a tall building in a single bound, flying above the city, charging up a vertical surface at superspeed, swinging from a silken cord, smashing a skyscraper into rubble, blowing up a metropolis, shrinking Kandor, or taking on War World.

Of course there are other functions served by individual character's relationships with architecture: the vigilante type is afforded authenticity by hir nightly patrols over the rooftops; Superman, in contrast, seems like a god descended from Heaven when he's made to occupy that same space.

Crikey, there's loads here isn't there. I could probably write a mini-essay on Millar's water towers. Will come back to this thread, I reckon.

Nice one, Yawn.
 
 
garyancheta
10:41 / 08.10.07
I think it is more about "controlling" space rather than conquering space. The Superheroes are agents of the status quo. Their main push is to protect the structure of the city at any cost. If they are agents of the status quo, then their city is proof that they still keep the status quo of the city. When the city is completely out of control, this provides the tension.

Consider how cities are depicted during a DC Comics "Crisis." There's usually a couple of shots where heroes from Japan or Australia are repelling the invasion or dying...and we get the idea that the city may fall if the city's protector dies. These scenes are usually shown to show the scale of the problem. They don't really have anything to do with the actual problem the heroes are facing. These images are used to show the scope.

The city is the thing that is to be preserved if you are a superhero. This is why "pastoral heroes" do not work too well. Heroes in the small towns are usually depicted as such because they aren't old enough to go to the big city. They are wards (like Impulse) or sidekicks (like Supergirl). Until they are given a true city, they are still heroes in training.
 
 
NedB
11:21 / 08.10.07
Alex Maleev on Bendis' Daredevil - he's not inventing anything new but his panels give you a sense of really walking down a particular block, which is missing from a lot of generic depictions of New York etc.
 
 
Spaniel
11:39 / 08.10.07
Well, I think that the concept of controlling the space does have a place here, and I feel dumb for overlooking it, but a fair amount of what I would call conquering (or an effort to conquer) goes on also. For example, take Batman perched on top of some gargantuan Gotham skyscraper overlooking his city - pretty much a stock set-up - are we not supposed to feel that he's somehow bested the building, in the way that we talk about climbers conquering mountains? Are we not supposed to feel that Spiderman has taken on his environment and won when he leaps from rooftop to roof top? In order to control something I'd suggest that we have to acheive dominance over it in some way.

I think this stuff ties into another important feature of the superhero narrative the act of winning.
 
 
Spaniel
11:44 / 08.10.07
Interestingly Wolverine and to some extent the rest of the X Men have very idiosyncratic relationships to architecture. For example, Wolverine is often depicted in pastoral environments, and the main architectural feature (to be defended) in the X Men is the Xavier Institute and grounds.

Unless they're in space.
 
 
Mug Chum
11:57 / 08.10.07
- I thought of League of Extraordinary Gentleman's orphanage (the building is a big hand slapping a huge ass). And the integration of steam-punk on victorian architecture (and the tiny fictional historical details around them -- I can't remember properly, but there are many websites with annotations on those). His top Ten and ABC works supposedly are ripe with interesting architectural background with ligther versions of his psychogeographical readings (remembered now as well the ending's futuristic New Age-esque city in Promethea after the "eschaton" thingy -- and the proprieties of space during the end of the world as well, might be of interest).

- Quitely's treatment of what Metropolis and the Daily Planet's simplicity means in the Superman mythos on issue 1 of A.*.S. (his descent on that panel with the high golden-globe as if zipping down towards the bottom panels and the less-but-sill fantastic 'mundane' daily down-to-earth) and the symbolical doomsday of him wiping out the same globe on #4 -- just a tiny panel that sells the point of that little character being a titanic Gojira!-like element, a finnegans wake-esque metonymy for each other's existence and significance.

- Millar's Red Son, Superman's U.S.S.R. (explored in many interesting ways) contrasted with Lex's America (there was even that shot of the neglected Daily Planet amidst the new architecture of America).

- Dr 13's buildings pointing to characters' goals (instead of Up, now to the side towards times square as they're on a flying pirate ship in NY, which was a square with too many clocks, as if imagined by a overtly literal mind of a nazi vampyre gorilla, and time stood still as a judging purgatory of comic book characters outside of 52.)

- Vinamarama's Kirby-esque underground 'pre-hindu' city (or as Sophia puts it, "a shopping center")

- Morrison's Doom Patrol issue where Constantine is a Kirby-ish Hellblazing superhero had - if I remember correctly - a Manhattan island that was shaped as a man (I think with a hat so it'd be Manhatter or something).

Domination of space certainly is a prime factor in super-hero business (I even remember a Batman issue where he marks his territory, spraying a bat over gang sprays -- even his bat-signal is basically a stance of territorial domination of the skies and the city, like a second moon). Higher grounds in them usually means a better and further reach of what's being guarded.
 
 
Mug Chum
12:04 / 08.10.07
And I wouldn't even want to know what the subtextual notion of conquering space means to a teenage tale of Spiderman, marking territory with his teenage expelled white fluids all over town...
 
 
garyancheta
13:43 / 08.10.07
I think conquering has its place within the superhero narrative, but if that were the case, then Batman would have conquered Gotham City by now. Conquering implies that you take over and enforce law. But within the superhero narrative, especially with ongoing superhero narratives, the story is always going to be one of chaotic dissonance. Superman will not take over Metropolis. Batman will never conquer Gotham City. It will always remain in flux because the narrative refuses to allow the superheros to enforce superhero law within crime to push back against them.

And crime always takes the form of property crime. We never see Superman attempt to solve the problems of social crime and overcrowding that seems to accompany crime in the city. Even though Batman will conquer that building, it is merely a vantage point in order to see where crime is in order to attack it again. Whenever we do see them try to affect change, this change is never permanent.

Superheroes are generally the cowboy retrofitted into an urban setting. He comes into town and tames the little part of it, but instead of going to the next city, he stays because crime is never stopped within their hometown.

- G
 
 
garyancheta
13:44 / 08.10.07
Henry Jenkins has some wonderful essays on Motter's Mister X on his blog:

http://www.henryjenkins.org/comics_culture/
- G
 
 
Spaniel
14:02 / 08.10.07
I think we might be using the word in different ways. I'm talking about a metaphorical conquering, like Bonnington conquering Everest, not a literal one (usually). In addition I am thinking about conquering not so much in terms of narrative, but in terms of discrete instances.

I take what you're saying, Gary*, I really do, but it seems to me that a key function played by architecture in Superhero comics is a gesturing towards the superness of the character. It tacitly says "look at how mega powerful this guy is, I mean, he climbed up/vaulted/smashed me, and I'm a HUGE SKYSCRAPER!!!!". And it does all that very often without distracting from the key action in the scene, without drawing attention to itself in any way.

*Please don't sign your posts
 
 
Spaniel
14:19 / 08.10.07
And crime always takes the form of property crime

Does it? Is murder a property crime? Is rape? Is assault? Sorry if I seem like I'm nitpicking - I completely agree that superheroes hardly ever try and tackle the nebulous social ills that lie behind crime - but I'm not sure what you're trying to do with this assertion.
 
 
grant
15:35 / 08.10.07
MacReady: James Robinson's Opal city in 'Starman' is very much a character in the bigger story.

This is true - it's almost self-consciously true. I think in this case, the space isn't conquered so much as romanced. Starman is set up as the protector of this space, learning its history, moving through it. I think there are maps, too, aren't there?

I'm also getting the feeling that Madman *must've* had a few cool buildings in it, although nothing is coming to mind right away. Allred's X-Statix had some lovely interior spaces. It seems like Madman would've had to have even more, since it's all so designed, but nothing's coming immediately to mind, other than the scientist's underground lab.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:01 / 08.10.07
Surely Danny the Street from Doom Patrol is worth a mention here? Also on a sentient architecture tip, the Authority's Jack Hawksmoor (surely that name should ring a bell or two to architectural historians / Occultists), esp. in that sequence from the Millar-written 'Jenny Sparks' offshoot books in which Tokyo itself rises up like a gigantic battlesuit to fight (IIRC) against its future self? Another example might be Ranx the Sentient City from Green Lantern, who was apparently destroyed by Sodom Yat - an excellent name for a member of the Green Lantern Corps, if ever I heard one. Perhaps he should get together with Jedi Master Yarael Poof for a major crossover event.

(Offtopic) While I suspect that Yat's creator, Alan Moore, knew exactly what he was doing when he named that particular member of the GLC (biblical reference and all), I find it hard to think that Yarael came by his surname through any other process than George Lucas writing down the first thing that came into his head, and his underlings being too afraid to point out to the beardy, fat-necked fucker that 'Poof' might just suggest something more to English viewers than the name 'Smith' or 'Jones' in the Quermian tongue. Either that, or Lucas was displaying the same famous sensitivity to minorites that he did in creating Jar jar Binks. Jedi Master Kit Fisto is, of course, an entirely different matter. Lucas' partner has hands like sides of ham (End Offtopic).
 
 
Spaniel
17:04 / 08.10.07
(I'd hate anyone to think that I'm obsessed by this conquering idea, it just strikes me as reasonably compelling, but far from a one size fits all concept)
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
19:26 / 08.10.07
hey a good debate........thanks for running with it.

what are the definitive visions of characters' cities?

who wrote and who drew the best ever metropolis?

gotham?

megacity one?

new york?

I love miller's gotham in DKR because, well, it's actually EVIL. REALLY FUCKIN EVIL.

mazzuchelli's new york in daredevil: born again - my favourite ever four colour art design......

but who did the best metropolis? no idea...

gibbon's new york in watchmen is phenomenal...real class. the detail, the materiality, it's just so solid.

and yeah, the fortress of solitude - gets me thinking: what are the key buildings (get it?) in comic book history:

fortress of solitude for sure

wayne manor and batcave

arkham asylum

Dredd's city blocks

???

And who would be the artists to focus on:

ware, campbell, gibbons, eisner, ????

ps. paul pope's new york in 100 per cent deserves a mention too...
 
 
Spaniel
19:41 / 08.10.07
Course Millar's Gotham is very New Yorky

Completely agree about Mazz's design in Born Again. One of many reasons why the Bendice run will never touch it.
 
 
garyancheta
20:24 / 08.10.07
>>>I take what you're saying, Gary*, I really do, but it seems to me that a key function played by architecture in Superhero comics is a gesturing towards the superness of the character. It tacitly says "look at how mega powerful this guy is, I mean, he climbed up/vaulted/smashed me, and I'm a HUGE SKYSCRAPER!!!!". And it does all that very often without distracting from the key action in the scene, without drawing attention to itself in any way.

*Please don't sign your posts <<<<

(i like signing posts :-))

In any case, I agree that his choice is that he is greater than those below. Consider the Superman mantra:

Faster than a speeding bullet (he can avoid street crime by being faster)

More Powerful than a locomotive (he is stronger than the one of the fastest thing that helps us commute between places in the city)

Able to leap buildings in a single bound (he is greater than the biggest thing out htere)

Superman (and, by extension, all superheroes) are greater than the city. But they never seem to use that power of being greater to "conquer" the city, but merely keep the city running.

>>> Does it? Is murder a property crime? Is rape? Is assault? Sorry if I seem like I'm nitpicking - I completely agree that superheroes hardly ever try and tackle the nebulous social ills that lie behind crime - but I'm not sure what you're trying to do with this assertion. <<<

Primarily they deal with property crime. Assult is usually dictated by stealing someone's wallet, not general brutalization. The rogues are there to steal money, not kill people. The special cases come from violent and sexual crime and while not a taboo subject, that sort of violence is usually saved for something like Identity Crisis, rather than the latest issue of the Flash.

Roland Bartes mentioned that Superheroes "have civic consciousness instead of political consciousness" and I still think that holds true to a degree. We still have status-changing superhero stories...and I think we can agree that part of the reason for this is the attacks on the US on 9-11...but I think that alot of superheroes work on the realm of preventing crime of the city rather than controlling the city.

Because once they figure it out and settle with running the city, they lose the ability and anonymity to become an "adventuring superhero" (ala Oliver Queen).
 
 
garyancheta
20:25 / 08.10.07
Denny O'Neil once pointed out that Metropolis is New York in the daytime and Gotham City is New York at night.
 
 
Spaniel
20:47 / 08.10.07
I'm still not sure you understand exactly what I'm saying. I am not talking about a conscious act on behalf of the characters - a conscious act of conquering. Rather I'm talking about a function of the pictoral relationship between superheroes and their environment. I'm not sure I can explain myself any better than I already have, however, so I'll stop right here.

On the property thing.

Many, many instances of superhero comic book crime are neither motivated by nor revolve around property. Most Batman baddies are sociopaths, for instance, and Spiderman's foes seem mostly intent on killing/injuring him and his family. I could go on... for ages.
Sure, property crime is ubquitous in superdooper world, very often for the reasons you've mentioned, but I think you're overselling it.

When it comes to signing posts, I admit it's a bugbear of mine. People generally don't do it around here, because, well, it's unnecessary, but, hey, if you enjoy it I won't stand in your way.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:48 / 08.10.07
Superman (and, by extension, all superheroes) are greater than the city. But they never seem to use that power of being greater to "conquer" the city, but merely keep the city running.

They bring with them a civilizing element, much like Hercules conquering the wilderness and defeating monsters-- Hub City's a shit-hole filled with despair and horror but the Question goes forth to civilize.
 
 
garyancheta
21:01 / 08.10.07
Yeah, I agree with your point of "conquering." The interesting thing that I find compelling is that even though they have conquered the normal problems that people have and risen above the architecture of the world, they still find themselves wanting to go back down into the depths or hide behind disguises.

I think it was telling when Morrison wrote that Superman's goal is not to "save people" but to bring everyone up to his level.

>>> On the property thing.

Many, many instances of superhero comic book crime are neither motivated by nor revolve around property. Most Batman baddies are sociopaths, for instance, and Spiderman's foes seem mostly intent on killing/injuring him and his family. I could go on... for ages.
Sure, property crime is ubquitous in superdooper world, very often for the reasons you've mentioned, but I think you're overselling it. <<<

Yes, Batman's villains are psychopaths...but consider their crimes. Two Face's biggest draw is that he commits acts of evil based on whether or not the coin turns up tails or heads...but for the most part he's robbing and getting more money. Sure he's psychopathic, but he's also trying to get paid. The crime comes from stealing, not necessarily beating down people.

The criminals of Gotham are still sort of like organized crime bosses, but even if you take those people out of the element, you still have fights over property. Poison Ivy is still trying to use the natural world to conquer the city. Mr. Freeze is making the world into perpetual cold and stealing stuff. The Joker, although he's now a complete sociopath, is still performing weird "performance crime" that attracts the Batman to saving a part of the city (whether it is the Joker taking out Arkham Asylum or merely just the Joker making "laughing fish.")

The Batman villains are still doing things that hurt the city or the city's inhabitants. They aren't necessarily picking off people on a watchtower.

Spiderman's villains are roughly the same. They may want to hurt Spiderman or mess up his family, but their overall goal wasn't to just outright harm them (except for, maybe, Venom)...their main goal was to get Spiderman to cut it out so they can steal something or take over something.

There aren't too many characters that outright want to rape or cut off human heads. Most are there to routinely take something away from the hero.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:16 / 08.10.07
Denny O'Neil once pointed out that Metropolis is New York in the daytime and Gotham City is New York at night.

Gotham is "Manhattan below Fourteenth Street at 3 a.m., November 28 in a cold year."

I think Metropolis was Manhattan at something like 2 in the afternoon on the hottest, sunniest day of the year. Maybe 5th Avenue.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:31 / 08.10.07
I was going to say I didn't think I could add anything currently to this most interesting of threads, but not sure if anyone has mentioned the peculiar giant advertising devices, fancy billboards with enormous props, that provided Batman with a playground and battleground ~ golf clubs, coffee cups, typewriters of course. I can't remember the decade I'm afraid. An amusing kind of city architecture though, and I think it has some basis in real city publicity.

Scott Bukatman has written an interesting chapter in his book Matters of Gravity on Superman and Batman's very different relationship to city-space.

Also bear in mind that Superman came into his powers on a farm, and Spider-Man lived in Forest Hill, Queens ~ so as teenagers practicing their new-found abilities, they weren't actually in the metropolis. Superboy was leaping barns and grain silos; wikipedia tells me that Forest Hill is typified by six-storey apartment blocks, so not exactly skyscrapers.

I echo the above recommendation of Henry Jenkins' interview with Dean Motter about Mister X and retro-deco comics cities. I'm pretty sure there's a mention of Morrison's city of architecture that never was, though I also think they source it to Bulleteer, rather than the Whip.
 
 
This Sunday
21:40 / 08.10.07
Top 10 and Tokyo Babylon both make their cities intensely present, with the urban structures, the buildings and streets, slums and parks and towers, very clearly marking an atmosphere.

The Metropolis/Gotham thing almost falls apart for me, just because there's been too many artist's interpretations of them, some more defined or well-considered than others.

I really like the way Leiji Matsumoto handles architecture, from the familiar to the alien, as he manages to juxtapose disparate styles and make them work together, as well as boiling down a set-piece to an emotive purity of atmosphere. While alternating, seemingly naturalistically, between immaculate techie precision and very loose, animated abstractions.
 
 
Mug Chum
21:40 / 08.10.07
Funny 'cause I've always pictured Metropolis as sunny, calm, bright and breezy. And Gotham as either night or with bleak gray-to-darker weather tending to hot colors, but mind-bendingly stuffy and in a constant maniac hot fever.

And I think the misunderstanding concerning the conquering aspect ('cause I think nobody is actually wrong -- except for the bit that in a classical sense I think they do represent or are almost paralel to the city in a almost king-ish way and its status quo, a child-like simplicity in their proximity; and the property bit that I can't really relate with the comics for some reason) is that gary seemed to take the notion of conquering in a way just a bit too literal.
 
  

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