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Celibacy as Body Politic

 
  

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xenoglaux
00:50 / 06.10.07
I have recently been toying with the idea of celibacy. To me it seems like it can be an excellent way to get in touch with oneself rather than getting caught up in relationships with other people. I have also read some chapters of Sally Cline's book, Women, Celibacy, and Passion, and find interesting her ideas about celibacy as a kind of resistance politics.

Cline states in her conclusion that "[c]elibacy is the rebellion against all the masculine definitions of women's sexuality in a society that is based on genitals and the heterosexual couple" (347). [Note that I translated that from the Spanish version, so the original version probably says something a little different.]

Just wondered what y'all think about this concept.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
01:37 / 06.10.07
Question: if you decide to go ahead with the whole celibacy thing, will you cease masturbating too (presuming of course that you ever did)? To perhaps put it more succinctly, is sexual pleasure entirely off the cards, or only sexual pleasure arrived at with another?
 
 
Papess
02:37 / 06.10.07
xenoglaux, I really like this topic. I have been celibate for going on a year in January. I have done it mainly as a dedication to the Goddess Athena, but it has given me a completely new perspective on myself and my body.

Celibacy defies the false conditioning of being a "female receptacle". Taking focus off "needing sex" or "wanting sex" and having a neutral reaction to notions of sexual intercourse is liberating. It is not just the not having sex, but the mental and physical resources that are freed up as well. No looking for sex, or even wondering about sexual prospects. Which, incidentally leaves one to focus on an amazing range of fine details of relationships. As it states in The New Celibacy, "In most cases, celibacy represents an inward turning of one's attention away from a need to be fulfilled outside oneself."

As for masturbation: I think there is some debate on this. Gabrielle Brown in the link above, states: "If you want to indulge in celibacy, you don't masturbate". She is also quoted in A History of Celibacy By Elizabeth Abbott, who says that "Modern feminists see it [celibacy] as a beneficial adjunct to celibacy."

BTW: If anyone has some links to these works, I would love to read more.

Moving on, Abbott continues with: "Thinkers primarily concerned with celibacy as sexuality argue that masturbation defeats or nullifies the decision to be chaste." Which may need some discussion for celibacy versus chastity.

That is about all I have for now. I am not a headshoppy type so, my apologies now if this post seems insubstantial, anecdotal, or just uninformed flake.
 
 
xenoglaux
17:16 / 06.10.07
I think that celibacy, at least for me, would allow for masturbation. To pleasure oneself can be part of a very healthy sexuality, and since it is fulfilled by none other than oneself, it avoids the potential entrapments of sexual relationships with other people.

I suppose one could argue that celibacy is the avoidance of sex altogether, and that since masturbation is defined as sex with oneself, it should be avoided as well. One might also argue that practicing masturbation does not allow thoughts of sexual pleasure to leave the mind and therefore is counterproductive to the purpose of celibacy.

But whether or not masturbation is a part of it, I like the way Gabriell Brown phrased it (and as Medulla has already quoted): "In most cases, celibacy represents an inward turning of one's attention away from a need to be fulfilled outside oneself." I think this would be the main idea, at least for me.

The potential feminist politics of celibacy interest me as well. I came across this website, which purports to sum up Sally Cline's book. She's militant, but she has a lot of good points. I suppose what bothers me about Cline's position is that she presents women's sexuality as rather black and white. Either we are celibate or we are slaves to the male sex. I'm of the opinion that it's often more challenging to find the middle ground (if indeed one exists) than to take a side and stick to it.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
12:35 / 07.10.07
I think the masturbation deal depends on the reasons for being celibate--my particular brand of celibacy (I'm sort of new to it, so I'm not sure if I can call it my "brand". But I've been celibate for six weeks now! Whooo) does not allow for it. I suppose if one is choosing celibacy as a change from an outward perspective to a more inward, than masturbation may be cool...my only question is wether or not the fantasies conjured can foot the bill as something "fulfilled by none other than oneself".

The idea of celibacy as a political choice intriques me--I realize my choice may have political ramifications, but it never even entered my mind that celibacy could come from such a choice. Looks like I've got some reading to do.

I've heard that the no-masturbation brand of celibacy can have negative impacts on one's health. Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to health professionals, so I can't find any definitave answers on this. Can anyone help?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:08 / 07.10.07
It strikes me that celibacy is in some ways a surrender. To put it colloquially, it suggests to me that you (one) may not own your own shit. Instead of being a measured decision about sex as and when the opportunity is there, it's a blanket decision made to protect one from having to think about it too much.

That's not necessarily bad if it's about getting some space to think, or if your relationship with sex is vexed.

A friend of mine was a zen monk for some time, and when he left the monastery, he felt he was leaving zen and was a bit miserable. His teacher said, no, no: you're not leaving the life. You're going to practice your zen where it is most difficult and most necessary - in the loud, real world. Anyone can be tranquil here - can you do it there?

See what I'm getting at?
 
 
xenoglaux
16:59 / 07.10.07
Absolutely, Nick. I think this is what is most troubling for me about Cline's "militant celibacy," as I've come to think of it. It seems to be an altogether rejection of partner sex, as if the rejection of it were the only way to solve the problem of the sexual objectification of women in gendered/sexual power relations. (That was a bunch of terminology, but I don't know how else to say it).

In short, her method of dealing with the problem doesn't seem to deal with the problem at all. Instead, it avoids the problem altogether.

And I certainly don't think that the logical response to asymmetrical gendered power relations is sexual abstinence. I'm beginning to think that the more political the choice of celibacy, the less effective it is personally. How much healthy satisfaction can I really derive from denying men my body? Must the personal always be political?
 
 
Ex
19:47 / 07.10.07
Nick, it looks rather as though you're rejecting anybody else's potential experience of celibacy as always already negative. You're suggesting that sex is intrinsically part of life, therefore choosing not to have it is always a removal from reality. That may be the case for you, but I feel it's a bit of a dismissive approach to the subject.

Why can't the decision not to have sex be a 'measured decision'? Any other kind of sexual decisions - such as the decision to be monogamous, or to commit to a relationship, for example - will also be, to some extent, a 'blanket decision' - broad foundations for a sexual behaviour, on top of which you do the kind of daily negotiation you describe. I don't know that not having any underlying sense of what you want from sex, and dealing with it entirely on a incident-by-incident basis, would be healthy, and I'm sure you're not advocating that. Celibacy seems more akin to those other baseline decisions than you're describing - most celibate people are going to be moving in the ordinary world, having interractions with people, and friendships, and even romantic-flavoured relationships, and have to conduct them and work out how to handle them.

To use a probably shoddy comparison, it sounds a bit like saying 'If you don't drink, then you're less mature and reasonable than someone who deals with how much and when to drink day by day'. They're both things that have big cultural significance, and can be fun, and can be ways that you can learn a lot about yourself, and things that can be problematic, but (I think) neither is a thing that is always a sign of a significant failure of will or maturity if you don't do them.

I don't want to drift off into entirely abstract discussions of celibacy when there was an interesting and strong start with the Cline, but on the other hand, I haven't read her in a while.

I will say that if a woman perceives sex as prohibitively complex and problematic because of cultural gender stuff, then to say to that woman 'You should soldier on there, you shouldn't give up, that's a surrender' - I feel that's another reinforcement of the idea that women should never get to deny people access to their bodies. I'm sure that's not how you intended it, but I think you're missing a gendered dimension. That insistence that women's bodies be available comes in about 53 different flavours, and it's really pervasive.

For a straight bloke who's been lucky enough to be brought up with a sense of control and agency over his body to say 'I'm not doing sex' is a different thing for a woman who has not had that sense of control and agency (obviously, there will be people from both genders experiencing more or less of that, and it'll be cut across by considerations such as sexuality and class). I've been brought up with and experienced a whole load of stuff about when and to whom I should give access to my body (and what it would mean for me if I do or don't). It's not the same stuff as my male friends have been brought up with - equally complex, just very different. Saying no to sex would therefore have different meanings for each of us.

You say it's a sign of owning 'your own shit' - I think it's also everyone else's shit, and the society's shit, that you end up dealing with as a sexually active woman, and one should entirely be allowed to opt out of doing that, without it being blamed on a personal failing.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:03 / 07.10.07
Ex: Mmm, I wouldn't say I was dismissing celibacy, so much as cautioning. More specifically, I distrust blanket solutions. I'm also not happy with the comparison with not drinking, which seems to make a tacit appeal to questions of alcoholism. If someone were addicted to sex, that would be slightly different; decisions contingent on sickness are not theoretical so much as practical.

I will say that if a woman perceives sex as prohibitively complex and problematic because of cultural gender stuff, then to say to that woman 'You should soldier on there, you shouldn't give up, that's a surrender' - I feel that's another reinforcement of the idea that women should never get to deny people access to their bodies.

I'm extremely uncomfortable with that. I think your concern could and should apply equally to men, of whatever sexual inclination.

In short, though, I was expressing a concern about celibacy as one of a number of ways of avoiding things which trouble us, which does not necessarily deal with the problem.

I'm sure that's not how you intended it, but I think you're missing a gendered dimension.

It might be fairer to say I wasn't engaging at a complex enough level, but in any case I think any gendered dimension here will be significantly more complex than binary, and in fact I suspect there will be socioeconomic, personal and emotional considerations. It depends how you take your generalisations, doesn't it?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
20:19 / 07.10.07
Medulla, you've said that: I have been celibate for going on a year in January. I have done it mainly as a dedication to the Goddess Athena

If you feel comfortable sharing this with the readers of Barbelith, I'd be fascinating to know what Athena makes of your dedication. I can't claim a personal relationship with her, but I've always found it interesting, and perhaps problematic, that a female avatar of wisdom (among other things) was born of an immaculate and violent conception...

Your Athena, of course, may not be 'my' Athena, but if you're happy to respond, I'm all ears.
 
 
Ex
20:36 / 07.10.07
I wouldn't say I was dismissing celibacy, so much as cautioning.

Excellent - If you'd said ' celibacy can sometimes be a surrender' rather than 'celibacy is in some ways a surrender' than I wouldn't have seen it as a blanket description.

I think any gendered dimension here will be significantly more complex than binary

Yes, and I acknowledged that. But gender is the biggest binary that we have relating to sex, and it's the binary addressed in the thread starter, and it was absent from your post, so I thought I'd bring it up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:07 / 07.10.07
I'm also not happy with the comparison with not drinking, which seems to make a tacit appeal to questions of alcoholism.

For the record, I saw no such appeal, tacit or otherwise, and think it rather odd to assume that there was one. Possibly I do not associate the decision to drink with alcoholism. Is this unusual of me?

So, celibacy and gender. That seems a more interesting angle to explore here than celibacy as monasticism. Going back to Cline, she says:

Not to be sexually active suggests a woman is ugly, old or unfeminine. A focus on appearance or youth keeps women in a constant state of anxiety and distracts them from the main issues in the ongoing struggle against oppression. Mandatory heterosexual consumption as integral to this way of thinking keeps women in line by keeping their attention firmly fixed on men. Compulsory congress has always been a smart move on the divide-and-conquer frontlines of attack. Never more so than now when women have made so many legal gains in legal and social directions.

It's worth noting that she also says:

Men find a celibate choice so threatening that they bring in verdicts of mental disturbance.

That's one to keep in mind, chums.

The way gender has interfaced with the discussion so far is interesting - Tuna Ghost, for example, has asked whether not masturbating as part of a celibate existence is bad for one's health - without apparently distinguishing between the possible variance in the physiologies of the celibate person. This is a handy reminder that when we talk about what people think about sex, we are often talking about what we think about sex, or in this case the absence of it.

So, starting from zero. Do we think that having sex, and by extension not having sex, have different meanings and different implications for different people, and that gender is a significant factor in how those differences manifest?
 
 
xenoglaux
21:09 / 07.10.07
Ex: "gender is the biggest binary that we have relating to sex, and it's the binary addressed in the thread starter"

I'd like to point out that gender is not a binary. Gender is socially constructed. For example, masculinity does not mean the same thing or include the same aspects in every culture. Gender encompasses what we attribute as a society to males and females (and gets even more problematic when you add intersexed people into the equation). In my original post I did not make reference to gender being a binary. Just wanted to clear that up.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:22 / 07.10.07
I'd like to point out that gender is not a binary. Gender is socially constructed.

There is no contradiction between these two sentences, as far as I can tell - I mean, gender as social construct, definitely, but at least in our familiar social constructs it is constructed as a binary, however imperfect we may find that construction for our purposes. However, the way we are treated in society - certainly the societies where to the best of my knowledge we so far involved in this thread - often depend very heavily on whether that society, or a particular instance of interaction with a part of that society, codes us as "man" or "woman", regardless of what specifically is ascribed to "man" or "woman", and indeed regardless of our own feelings about our gender or our physical attributes, initial or post-reassignment.

That said, there is certainly a lot of complexity to gender, hence my starting-at-zero question:

Do we think that having sex, and by extension not having sex, have different meanings and different implications for different people, and that gender is a significant factor in how those differences manifest?
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
21:24 / 07.10.07
Do we think that having sex, and by extension not having sex, have different meanings and different implications for different people, and that gender is a significant factor in how those differences manifest?

Yes, yes, and yes. Tuna Ghost's not wanking = possible health troubles claim seems at least to me to be an inversion of the Victorian wanking = possible health troubles claim. Such binary thinking leads us down all sorts of problematic paths. On the one hand, Sir Cliff Richard is looking very good for his age. On the other, his sigils remain very much uncharged. Just ask Sue Barker.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:28 / 07.10.07
Perhaps we should just close the Head Shop.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:48 / 07.10.07
Hopefully to close off the "Masturbation - ask me how!" strand, Tuna Ghost has read or heard something about this. According to that survey, although sex with multiple partners increases your risk of prostate cancer, regular ejaculation reduces it. So, regular masturbation, at least in one's twenties, is a good idea if one is not regularly ejaculating through other means. Further examination of the medical effects of masturbating or not masturbating probably best placed in the Laboratory. What I found interesting was that TG simply assumed that the subject was male, or that the health aspects of masturbation would be equal across different biologies, either of which is of potential interest in terms of how one conceives of matters sexual.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
21:48 / 07.10.07
Well, the closing down sale could be fun...

1 x copy 'Mille Plateaux' (leafed through, but not exactly read).

1 x copy 'Queer Theory, Gender Theory: A Instant Primer' (ex libris Haus).

1 x sense of humour (Unused).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:58 / 07.10.07
Please don't troll me, Magick/Medeiros/Horse, or at least if you would like to troll me do so in the Conversation, where it if not belongs at least fits. This discussion has at least some chance of being interesting, and in the interests of attempting to keep it so, I'll be moving any further rot for deletion.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:59 / 07.10.07
So, back to celibacy. Something about the comparison of celibacy to going to a zen monstery was interesting to me - effectively, because it positioned active sexual relationships in the metaphorical role of everything that takes place outside a zen monastery, celibacy as the absence of all those things inside the zen monastery and zen itself, if I understand aright, being something like the ability to deal in a productive and useful way with sexual feeling - which is easy to maintain in the monastery, and hard to mantain out of it, but much more valuable outside the monastery than in.

That model is an absence model - where sexual activity, or being open to sexual activity, is a thing to have, and celibacy is therefore a retreat from having that thing. This isn't how Cline sees it, though. For her, celibacy is in itself a sexual thing - what she calls "sexual singlehood". Is this dishonest? Can one only describe an interrelationship as "sexual" if it involves actually having sex? More broadly, is the absence model correct - one or more relationships involving sexual intercourse, or openness to same, are a fundamental part of one's lived experience of the world, and declining this is therefore denying onself a full experience of that lived experience - or is it more that sexual intercourse is something that one can do with one's life, like childbirth or going to university or going to college, and that while it is often important for people, it is important in the way that owning a home or Duran Duran might be important, rather than the way that a spleen or language is important?

There are a bunch of holes in that one, so please poke away. I'd like to keep the gender issue in mind at the same time, if possible.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
07:23 / 08.10.07
Haus--thanks for the info. After having been celibate for a few weeks, I started hearing stories from people along the lines of "oh so-and-so tried that and he went to the doctor like three months later and his x and y were all out of wack". It's hard to take stories like that seriously, but I figured it couldn't hurt to find out about any possible health risks for male celibacy.

What I found interesting was that TG simply assumed that the subject was male, or that the health aspects of masturbation would be equal across different biologies, either of which is of potential interest in terms of how one conceives of matters sexual.

Well yes, I admit I did assume the subject was male, or rather that the readers of the thread would assume that I was refering to myself. Which I suppose raises the question of why I would assume that they would know that I have dangly parts. It's not as if I am so well-known around here that I can assume that safely...is it because I am used to discussing this person-to-person and not over an internet message board, or because my vanity helps me take a more self-oriented view of matters sexual? A little of both?
 
 
Ex
07:23 / 08.10.07
That model is an absence model - where sexual activity, or being open to sexual activity, is a thing to have, and celibacy is therefore a retreat from having that thing.

I think this model is dependant on where your social norms are - working from a baseline in which people having (some amount of) sex is the norm, or not. A lot of people feel sex is so fully part of an adult life that to decline it is somehow to step back from the world (I get into a lot of arguments about religious celibates on this point). But a celibate life is still a life.

If you instead take as the baseline instead 'people usually have sexual desires' (dodgy, but less dramatic), then celibacy is a decision to satisfy or work round those desires, without recourse to sex with others.

I do think that whether to participate in sex should be an entirely freely made decision, and the stigma on celibacy warps that decision-making.
I think anything else is dodgy. At a personal level it's dodgy, and politically it's really dodgy: if someone's social position tends towards them only really being offered inequitable, exploitative sexual interractions, and society propogates the idea that people generally have sex unless something's a bit wrong with them, then that norm benefits the person who's got the exploitative sexual access.

If the gender angle seems obtruse, simplistic or uncomfortable, then I'm quite happy to suggest that this would be beneficial for everyone. I think men would fare far better without the pressure to have sex as an instrinsic part and proof of man-ness.


This strand of the discussion reminds me a little of the debate on childcare Barbelith had a while back - I think it's easy to look at archytypes: parents = altruistic, sex = interractive, therefore childfree people = selfish, celibate people = withdrawn. I know so many people who have sex, repeatedly, in ways that only increase the shit they have to sort out, and the sex in no way makes them more open, self-knowing well-regulated people. So I'm sceptical of sex being used as a shorthand for maturity ('You need a girlfriend!').

I'd like to point out that gender is not a binary. Gender is socially constructed.

I'm not saying it's a pre-existing, pre-discursive, outside-of-culture binary - I agree that gender is socially constructed, and I suggest that it is constructed as a binary. I agree that it becomes insanely contradictory and self-defeating in society's efforts to present it as a binary, but that's how it's often conceptualised.
 
 
Ex
07:59 / 08.10.07
So yes, sorry xenoglaux - didn't mean to attribute the binary-ness of gender to your introductory post, just that you'd introduced the topic from a gender-related angle.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:46 / 08.10.07
To begin at the end:

I'm not saying it's a pre-existing, pre-discursive, outside-of-culture binary - I agree that gender is socially constructed, and I suggest that it is constructed as a binary.

It may be, but individuals reject or simply don't fit into those constructions, and so we get sub/counter cultures which accept different constructions. Not fitting the mainstream conception of appropriate gender may be part of what this is about. In fact, in a way, given that genders are frequently asserted through or because of sexual shapes, is celibacy a gender in and of itself?

In reply to Haus, it occurs to me that shapes like celibacy have few or no inherent qualities, they're about constructions and/or deconstructions. Even the physical consequences of sex (to whatever extent they are purely physical rather than partly psychological, and let's not get into the question of mind/body health if we can avoid it) may be mediated by self-perception. So more questions emerge. In no particular order:

What does celibacy mean to the mainstream society?

What does celibacy mean to the person practicing it? (Whether this is the original poster or someone else.)

What stresses and conflicts are created by the interactions of these perceptions?

What other groups and individuals will present an interest in the decision to be celibate, and what minority perceptions of that decision will affect the celibate, and in what ways?

Celibacy seems to stem from a variety of possible motivations, and some if not all of these are teleological. To what extent can they be successful? If, for example, it is a refuge, as it has been historically for various sexual orientations and motivations, does it achieve its end? Or is some physical retreat also necessary? If the desire for celibacy stems from a desire not to be troubled with the discourse of sex as much as a decision to avoid intercourse, does the decision itself immediately provoke the discourse one seeks to avoid? And if - as appears to be the case with Cline, although I will confess I have not read the book - celibacy is a revolutionary strategy, what is the goal of the revolution and does celibacy achieve it, or does it represent a retreat to a safe space which simply hands the battlefield to the enemy?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:57 / 08.10.07
Let me introduce a parallel aspect of the discussion:

What might be the motivations of a person P to choose the celibate life?

in consequence of that question, two more:

What is celibacy?

and the corollary:

What is sex?
 
 
Ticker
14:59 / 08.10.07
I'm also curious about the connection between appereances/ public signifers and private/public status of sexual availability. If one ceases to look as if one is advertizing one's sexuality does that accomplish the same public political function regardless of if one is practicing celibacy privately? Or conversely if one is practicing celibacy but retaining the public signifiers of being sexually available how does that impact the practice? If people assume the incorrect status how does this impact the experience of the practice?

My experience is dramatically changed in daily life if I present sexual availability in dress and to which gender/orientation I am read as attractive to. Interestingly enough what is read as attractive or signifing sexual availability to one group may read as null or celibate to another.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
16:49 / 08.10.07
Please don't troll me, Magick/Medeiros/Horse

Don't believe I was, Haus old chap. Indeed, if you check upthread you'll notice that I answered 'yes' to your starting-at-zero question, and then made a serious point about Tuna Ghost's inversion of the Victorian 'masturbation-bad' mindset, albeit one sprigged with a gag about Sir Cliff Richard and his woefully undercharged sigils. You then suggested closing the Headshop, following which I suggested that a closing down sale at said Headshop might included a skim-read copy of 'Mille Plateaux', your own copy of 'Queer Theory, Gender Theory: A Primer' (you seem to me to be fully primed in such theory, so hats off), and an unused sense of humour (not, you'll note, an underutilised possession that I attributed to you). It was after that that you started accusing me of trolling you.

Careful readers might note that if anybody is doing the trolling here, it was your good self when you suggested, pace my comments on Tuna Ghost's posts, that the Headshop should shut up, um, shop. I don't really mind, though, so lets hug like awkward brothers in law at a barbecue wake and forget all about it.

Aaaaand back on topic

If one chooses to publically announce one's celibacy, but to have sexual relationships with other individuals in private, might this have some (self)emancipatory potential?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:07 / 08.10.07
XK: That's an interesting one - and one could extend the question to, for example, somebody in a monogamous relationship behaving in such a way that gives the impression of sexual availability. Is this about the actions of the individual, or the expectations of the individual's society?

What does it mean to say "I am celibate"? I think this thread is throwing up some interesting answers to that. For Nick, celibacy suggests surrender and retreat from the world, involving as it does sexual intercourse. For Medulla Oblongata, it is quite the opposite - a means of interacting more richly and more successfully with the world:

Taking focus off "needing sex" or "wanting sex" and having a neutral reaction to notions of sexual intercourse is liberating. It is not just the not having sex, but the mental and physical resources that are freed up as well. No looking for sex, or even wondering about sexual prospects. Which, incidentally leaves one to focus on an amazing range of fine details of relationships.

Ex identifies that celibacy is nuanced by gender, much as sexual activity is:

For a straight bloke who's been lucky enough to be brought up with a sense of control and agency over his body to say 'I'm not doing sex' is a different thing for a woman who has not had that sense of control and agency (obviously, there will be people from both genders experiencing more or less of that, and it'll be cut across by considerations such as sexuality and class).

There is the question of what constitutes a sexual interaction - Cline has it that celibacy opposes _genital_ interaction, but not necessarily sexual interaction, but in doing so, i think, supposes a model of sexual activity at general variance with traditional understanding.

Which, I think, dovetails back into XK's question:

If one ceases to look as if one is advertizing one's sexuality does that accomplish the same public political function regardless of if one is practicing celibacy privately?Or conversely if one is practicing celibacy but retaining the public signifiers of being sexually available how does that impact the practice? If people assume the incorrect status how does this impact the experience of the practice?

I think I'd like to understand better how one is portrayed as advertising one's sexuality in this question - I mean, Cline would, again, probably be happy to accept that celibate people could and would advertise their sexuality, or radiate it or similar, but would not be available for two-person genital-based sexual acts. Which raises other interesting questions about whether that distinction of sex is relevant - there are certainly sexualities the primary expression of which is not genital.

So, I think that "advertising sexuality" might mean "advertising status as a sexual being" or "advertising availability for (genital) sex", and that those two forms of advertisement, or, to use a word I am more comfortable employing in this context, those two forms of display are different things. In your example, XK, whether you present as sexually available affects how you are treated (although, as you say, signifiers vary), but presumably it does not affect whether you are in a very broad sense having sex (not right at that minute, but as a general principle), and likewise whether you present as advertising your sexuality might actually not communicate information, except by implication, about whether you are sexually available.

Perhaps there's a case not just for comparing monogamy (or indeed polyfidelity in some strains of the unlovely neologism) to celibacy, but for likening the one to the other, in the sense that they are ways of locating a self in a fixed relation to sexual activity. Is one of those, then, a retreat, and another an engagement?
 
 
Ticker
18:30 / 08.10.07
I have a reply in another browser that seems to be frozen in a doom state...

Anyhow for now I thought perhaps this might be of interest to the discussion:

sworn virgins

Wiki: Sworn Virgins
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:21 / 08.10.07
I don't have anything to add at the moment but an observation.

Now whatever celibacy might be, we all seem to assume that sexual attraction is the norm, whatever the genders, angle of attraction and signifiers involved. I think we need to dissociate sex drive from sexual attraction. Why? Simply because of the surveys that show that there are asexuals that still have sex drives. The reverse too, that of attraction without drive, has been noted. Interestingly, and in contrast to celibates and celibacy, asexuality (aside from the problems potentially ensuing from not fulfilling one's marital duties) has flown under the radar.

I think that we are here defining celibacy as the states resulting when people who usually have a libido, a sex drive, choose not to act on it in interpersonal or outer-directed engagements. That might well be the majority experience.

I don't know if this changes anything of what was said before. Medulla touched on the subject in her post, how she found celibacy to free up her attention.
 
 
Ticker
16:29 / 09.10.07
I'm going to try this again and hopeful it will post...

Is one of those, then, a retreat, and another an engagement?

I've been thinking of examples of signifers of celibacy. In secular environments certain religious uniforms operate as a way of engaging without the sexual dynamics, or that's an intended function. One could probably find examples of other uniforms meant to convey sexual unavailibility, costumes meant to redirect the engagement to a focused level: see me only as X not as an available sexual Z.

There's an interesting element of not sexual at all versus only to/for certain people. Removing negotiating by presenting an absolute non negotiable fact.

In the accounts of the sworn virgins by adhering to a life of celibacy the women gain a range of freedoms in their culture not normally given to their gender. Because of their non sexual availabilty they are allowed to engage in a way not allowed to sexually active women.

I'm not sure but I suspect that signifing celibacy in secular life is often done more to refocus/redirect engagement than it is to retreat. Look at me (and so treat me) as this, not as this.

Monastic life is already one of retreat and so the signifiers further layer that withdrawal.
In the case of no signifers it probably matters little in monastic community where the very placement of the self would convey intentions and certainly there are very clear restrictions on acceptable behavior in most monastic communities.

I suspect but have no proof that without a signifer (or change of usual sexual signifers) one would remain in the usual state of sexual negotiation with others simply because interested parties might keep checking or new parties would have no way to know it was inappropriate. Kind of hard to be in retreat if people keep asking or checking?

If I wanted to retreat my sexuality by opting for celibacy but had to remain in the usual world for survival reasons I'd dramatically change my appeareance to remove the sexual signifers to greatly reduce the negotiation attempts. If I wanted to engage in other ways than sexual I would still change my signifers but less drastically. For me this might be the difference between shaving my head and simply sporting a really short hair cut.

In rereading this I'm not sure if it useful or just silly...

Anyhow.

IMO a sworn virgin is an act of celibacy for engagment while a monastic nun is an act of retreat. A nun in the world maybe an engagement...

Is it me or am I arriving at the conclusion that being in the world does not allow for a successful level of retreat without some massive costuming changes?
 
 
Papess
14:44 / 10.10.07
If you feel comfortable sharing this with the readers of Barbelith, I'd be fascinating to know what Athena makes of your dedication...

Not in this thread or forum. I would prefer to save that discussion for the Temple.

I think that we are here defining celibacy as the states resulting when people who usually have a libido, a sex drive, choose not to act on it in interpersonal or outer-directed engagements. That might well be the majority experience.

I don't know if this changes anything of what was said before. Medulla touched on the subject in her post, how she found celibacy to free up her attention.


Nolte, that is an interesting way to put it. I'm certain there are many reasons for celibacy. And if someone didn't have a libido, I don;t think celibacy would be an issue. Then again, it may. Simply because there is so much of one's daily life that can be(as in has the possibility of being) tied up in one's sexuality. From what we have for breakfast, how one dresses oneself, to what field we decide to study and work in. My own experiece of celibacy is to try to remove the "sex" aspect of sexuality. In this way my sexuality is not based on my availability, or someone else's judgements of me. By being celibate I am both retreating from the commonly accepted constructs of what my sexuality is, and I am creating a new engagement for interacting with the outside world.

In other words: If someone else views me sexually, it is not my problem. Well, joking aside, that is an important element, IMO, for women today who choose celibacy. We can still be sexual beings, but our sexuality it is transmuted from focusing the attainment of the sexual act to self-development, or whatever one wishes. My attention is liberated from my sexual mobjectification.
 
 
Ticker
15:32 / 10.10.07
I'm not sure if sexual mobjectification is a typo but it's pretty great in this context.
 
 
Papess
15:48 / 10.10.07
Heh, that is a typo, XK, but it is an interesting one.


I would like to respond to XK here:
I suspect but have no proof that without a signifer (or change of usual sexual signifers) one would remain in the usual state of sexual negotiation with others simply because interested parties might keep checking or new parties would have no way to know it was inappropriate. Kind of hard to be in retreat if people keep asking or checking?

Yes. People ask because of their own preoccupations. That doesn't translate anymore to me, as something that I have to deal with. Their own drives and desires are their issue. For me, not becoming distracted by those drives and desires is part of the celibacy. It is a celibacy of the mind as well as the body, in a way.

If I wanted to retreat my sexuality by opting for celibacy but had to remain in the usual world for survival reasons I'd dramatically change my appeareance to remove the sexual signifers to greatly reduce the negotiation attempts. If I wanted to engage in other ways than sexual I would still change my signifers but less drastically. For me this might be the difference between shaving my head and simply sporting a really short hair cut.

Some people find shaved heads sexy. What does one do then? This is why I have just opted to not concern myself with the drives of others. I feel that by making the effort to change is also catering to another's perception of my availability and sexuality. Just my opinion, YMMV.
 
 
xenoglaux
18:36 / 10.10.07
In the accounts of the sworn virgins by adhering to a life of celibacy the women gain a range of freedoms in their culture not normally given to their gender. Because of their non sexual availabilty they are allowed to engage in a way not allowed to sexually active women. (XK)

I think this just goes to show that gender is not even socially constructed as a binary across time and space. I realize my mistake now in saying that gender is not binary but socially constructed, because in the western world, gender is socially constructed as a binary. And it's fine that we're speaking of celibacy in a western social context, because it is the one in which we (most of us, I'm guessing) situate our sexualities.

This bit about the sworn virgins of the Balkans is interesting because it takes us outside of the western world and into a place where gender is not necessarily binary. I suppose that one could certainly argue here that even sworn virgins come from a dichotomous mold because they are a third sex only in the sense that they are not allowed to have sexual relations of any kind (similar to eunuchs in the 21st century BC[?]). The difference, admittedly, is that eunuchs were castrated and thus were thought to have no sexual desire whatsoever. Sworn virgins, on the other hand, are biologically female and perform no bodily modifications to obtain their status.

This brings me back to the question of celibacy: Sworn virgins were socially and culturally necessary for the people of the Balkans after the male population was nearly decimated. Does this kind of celibacy give us any insight into the kind of celibacy we're discussing (i.e. celibacy practiced willingly by a person for personal and/or political reasons)? Is the celibate in western society regarded as something of a "third sex" in our binary social construction of gender?

We can still be sexual beings, but our sexuality it is transmuted from focusing the attainment of the sexual act to self-development, or whatever one wishes. My attention is liberated from my sexual objectification. (Medulla)

I think that last sentence is a very good way of putting it. It's not that the celibate person suddenly expects not to be sexually objectified by others, but by choosing not to focus attentions or energies on others' gazes/sexual advances/questions/misunderstandings can be liberating. But note that I don't mean ignoring them altogether, because I think that recognizing outside sexual objectification is an integral part of celibacy for personal or interpersonal growth. If one were to just turn off one's mind to outside sexual influence altogether, she would be missing the point. It's like Nick said near the beginning of this thread:

A friend of mine was a zen monk for some time, and when he left the monastery, he felt he was leaving zen and was a bit miserable. His teacher said, no, no: you're not leaving the life. You're going to practice your zen where it is most difficult and most necessary - in the loud, real world. Anyone can be tranquil here - can you do it there?

It seems to me that it's the interacting with the (generally non-celibate) world and holding to one's convictions/lifestyle that one can gain the most from being celibate.
 
  

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