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GRIM
06:43 / 10.07.01
A while ago in 'Creative' I mentioned that the book me and a friend wrote...
"The Munchkins Guide To Powergaming"
Was up for an Origins award.
These things are like the Oscars of the Roleplaying world.

Well, we won in our category!

I'm on cloud bloody nine

GRIM
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
06:43 / 10.07.01
Awww... WELL BLOODY DONE!

Did you get a little gold statuette of a power-gamer?

Anything else planned?
 
 
GRIM
06:43 / 10.07.01
Thanks

We get some little statue, our friend Tim collected it for us.

Plans for the future?
Victorian Superhero style game (A la League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen but)

working on my free Neverwhere RPG offering.

Maybe try to get some work on SLA Industires.

GRIM
 
 
rizla mission
11:55 / 10.07.01
writing stuff for role playing games ... wow, I imagine that's pretty cool work if you can get it..
 
 
reidcourchie
13:42 / 10.07.01
Congratulations!

Where can I get a copy? And how can I make sure that my palyers don't get any.
 
 
GRIM
13:51 / 10.07.01
Amazon have them.
Or your local game shop should be able to get them and are far more deserving and needy of your support.
Failing that, the Steve Jackson Games site.
SJG could do with your money too.

GRIM
 
 
reidcourchie
13:53 / 10.07.01
I'm going to Traveling Man in Leeds on Sunday I'll try and get it then and if it does what it says on the cover I may have to bye all copies im my area.

Once again well done Grim, nice one.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
18:09 / 10.07.01
Congrats GRIM. I've seen it on the SJG website but I wasn't sure if I wanted to pick it up. Now that I 'know' one of the authors I'll have to get it
 
 
grant
18:21 / 10.07.01
What IS powergaming?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:17 / 10.07.01
gaming with the intent to WIN!!!

I'm sure GRIM has a more complete answer but to me powergaming is about getting the most 'power' for your character without breaking the letter of the rules. Of course, it almost always breaks the *spirit* of those rules and the game.

My own bias against powergaming show in my definition though
 
 
GRIM
06:48 / 11.07.01
What is Powergaming?

Roleplaying is (generally) supposed to be a cooperative enterprise.
Have fun, eat pizza, chill with your friends while your characters work together towards a common goal.

Some people see RP as an art, some people just see it as fun.
Powergamers play to win, and to dick over everyone else's characters.

For the non RP Savvy a Munchkin is like 'Camper' in an online multi player shoot-em-up, or someone who cheats online to be invulnerable and so on.

In a nutshell anyway...

GRIM
 
 
deletia
07:27 / 11.07.01
A nutshell of....utter incomprehensibility.
 
 
GRIM
11:40 / 11.07.01
What parts are you having issues with?

GRIMACHU
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:41 / 11.07.01
Hey GRIM, I see a new thread coming on: "Roleplaying games, the MeMePlex, and you"

Do you think us old roleplayers should take our geekness (or should that be geekdom)to the next level of absurdity and tout it as the next great ego-reconstructuring discipline?
 
 
GRIM
13:46 / 11.07.01
Why the hell not?
RP has been very rewarding for me, trouble is, if you make that argument you give fuel to the "Its satanic and rots your brain!" lobby.
Bah.
Perhaps Nobilis would perk some Barbelithers interest? :-)

GRIMASAUR
Crusty old gamer
 
 
moriarty
04:56 / 12.07.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Thorns:
A nutshell of....utter incomprehensibility.


In most roleplaying games there is no quantifiable way to "win". RPGs are meant to mirror real life in that your characters develop personalities, change goals, develop relationships, etc. There are no set standards for success, only what you get out of it. A powergamer is someone who has a hard time accepting this lack of set rewards. The only way the powergamer can be satisfied is to boost their character's abilities to higher and higher levels, in any way possible. Especially by bending the rules that were probably not set up to restrict violations of the spirit of the game. This allows them a certain feeling of superiority to the other players in the only way that makes sense to them. Numbers. Hard and fast facts that prove that they are winning. "My character can beat up your character." I can't count how many times I've heard a player say that.

Powergamers play a game that is supposed to be like real life as if it were a shoot-em-up video game. Simple goals, no characterization, highest "score" wins.

I'm wearing my "Fuck Thac0" shirt. Who here wants to start a gaming thread?
 
 
GRIM
07:05 / 12.07.01
Guess we could.
See who used to indulge in it, who of these open minded individuals harbours prejudice to the dice-wielding few

It could be interesting...

Conversation? Creative? Here?

GRIMACHU
 
 
Traz
07:19 / 12.07.01
Did someone mention gaming? Awright!

Dungeons and Dragons is still the industry standard, despite the silly name and clichéd image. By and large, I have to say that the reputation its gamers possess--young, geeky and just barely evolved beyond the point of using a six-sided die instead of a joystick--is completely accurate. Even the newly released third edition and several decades worth of fine-tuning, the game has barely changed at all. "Characters" are still two-dimensional killing machines. They don't have personalities, foibles, dreams or hopes; they have races, classes, alignments and levels. A "prince struggling to maintain his family's power and his own dignity while his father brutally oppresses his subjects" is not considered a viable player character, but a "12th-level chaotic-neutral half-elven sorcerer" definitely is. And, of course, all starting characters are horrendously weak, dependent on the acquisition of magical objects that boost their might, thus reinforcing the whole sordid theme: kill something, take its treasure, repeat.

Vampire: The Masquerade and the other games produced by White Wolf are on the opposite end of the scale, at least in theory. The players adopt the personas of the youngest members of the undead, preying on the largely inconsequential humans and battling each other in a war that is over six thousand years old. The sample characters provided in the various Clanbooks are each fully fleshed-out, with their game statistics clearly ranking in secondary importance to their background stories. You can play almost anything you can imagine: professional kidnappers, traumatized children, dapper businessmen or chanting cult-members; social development is the object of this quest, not the possibility of obtaining the hallowed Axe of the Dwarven Lords. Admittedly, this game harbors its share of power-gamers, too, the ones who want to play the meanest, toughest, baddest-assest vampire who ever swung a demon imprisoned in a katanna. However, despite the incredibly sophisticated level of writing, I no longer play any White Wolf games. This is because of one of their books, The Guide to the Sabbat. When rape, torture and child abuse are depicted as something to engage in, even in a clinically detached mode, in order to lend realism to one's understanding of the psychology behind playing depraved monsters...something's gone just a tad too far. The book is filled with warnings about players who take these games too seriously and ruin the image of the saner gamers, but you have to wonder if the thought of playing vampires attracts dangerous fruitcakes, or slowly creates them.

Steve Jackson Games puts out a line of books called GURPS, which stands for Generic Universal Role-Playing System. As far as I am concerned, it is the greatest gaming engine ever created, because I value the flexibility it offers in creating fresh, customizable campaigns and characters that are actually innovative. They offer sourcebooks on nearly every genre (Fantasy, Space, Time Travel, Supers), character type (robots, wizards, warriors) and locale (Egypt, Greece, Atlantis, Riverworld). Just a few days ago, I spent several hours creating the covers to a handful of new sourcebooks that I thought might be entertaining: GURPS Australia, GURPS Microverse, GURPS Immortals, GURPS Dreams (picture of a Dalì painting), GURPS Biochemical Warfare (picture of a can of Spam), GURPS Bimbos (Britney Spears) and even GURPS The Letter "S". I should have put up the bitmap files for public viewing, but I couldn't see the point in creating a one-joke webpage...

And that's just a few comments on gaming. Now, what was the original question?
 
 
deletia
07:41 / 12.07.01
Thanks, Moriarty, but my own experiences of RPGs in my early teens got me through that bit. I was bewildered primarily by the "Camper in an online multi-user etc." bit, my expeirence of online yumtetumtetum being nil.

Anyone? Beuller?

Oh, and well done, Grim, but does this mean you are pro- or anti- powergaming?
 
 
GRIM
08:21 / 12.07.01
I'm pro having fun.

We play Feng Shui as much as we play Vampire.

We have an ongoing EPIC Legend Of The Five Rings game going on which has never failed to be involving as long as we've been playing it.

I also... ::hangs head:: LARP, in The Camarilla, a White Wolf fan organisation. Though I find the pretension level a little high for me sometimes.

I can't stand GURPS. (Generally Unpopular Roleplaying System) but I LOVE the sourcebooks. Everything you could need.

I used to adore White Wolf, but 3rd Edition Mage is heresy, as, I hear, is their new treatment of Werewolf.
Of all their games I like Mage the most, a few of the Magick people here should check it out.

D&D - Hate it. Its so stereotyped and so lame. 3rd edition is no better and WOTC are killing the business with their BORG attitude.
Trying to apply their rules to Star Wars just didn't work, and won't work for anyone else.
I will never forgive them for droping Dune.

GRIM
 
 
Traz
08:46 / 12.07.01
Yes, but is power-gaming the way you have fun? When you play Vampire, do you assume the identity of a ten-year-old Malkavian who growls "Red Rum! Red Rum!" or an Uzi-toting Brujah anarch who's diablerized his way into the Fourth Generation?

What precisely has gone wrong with Mage? And while I'm asking, whatever happened with the "Year of the Reckoning" schtick? The Antediluvian founder of the Ravnos died, then...nothing.
 
 
reidcourchie
08:46 / 12.07.01
Originally posted by Flunitrazepam

"Dungeons and Dragons is still the industry standard, despite the silly name and clichéd image. By and large, I have to say that the reputation its gamers possess--young, geeky and just barely evolved beyond the point of using a six-sided die instead of a joystick--is completely accurate. Even the newly released third edition and several decades worth of fine-tuning, the game has barely changed at all. "Characters" are still two-dimensional killing machines. They don't have personalities, foibles, dreams or hopes; they have races, classes, alignments and levels. A "prince struggling to maintain his family's power and his own dignity while his father brutally oppresses his subjects" is not considered a viable player character, but a "12th-level chaotic-neutral half-elven sorcerer" definitely is. And, of course, all starting characters are horrendously weak, dependent on the acquisition of magical objects that boost their might, thus reinforcing the whole sordid theme: kill something, take its treasure, repeat."

This is a little depressing. Any game system is there to provide the simple mechanics for the game. What you then do with it is completely up to your own imagination. If that is all you can see to do with D&D then that's all it will be. RPG's are supposed to be about using your imagination. Yes White Wolf games (which I love by the way) do have a lot more advice on how to roleplay but do such things need to be spelt out? Do you need to be spoon fed. Play to your audience run the kind of games you enjoy in the style you want. D&D is just a system whereas White Wolf tens to print background with their games which I suspect is where people perceive the differance. There has however been a lot of very good background material put out for D&D.

Originally posted by Flunitrazepam
A "prince struggling to maintain his family's power and his own dignity while his father brutally oppresses his subjects"

In quite a bizarre coincidence this is exactly one of the characters I have running in my campaign at the moment.
 
 
GRIM
08:46 / 12.07.01
Do I munchkin to have fun?

I spend a lot of time defending wwhat other people call "munchkinism".
Playing a specialist or a good fighter doesn't HAVE to mean you're a munchkin.

I tend to play extremely weird and off the wall characters for the most part.

In vamp LARP currently I play a gun toting Brujah Anarch, but he's a fanatical Noddist amongst humanist vamps, famous, respected, intelligent with the violence, a mentor to many.

I have been known to play the odd 'munhckin' in terms of power before though. hell sometimes its fun, and with Aberrant, you can't help but be munchkin.

With the system/background thing 'tother geezer brings up...
Well, form follows function.
D&D supports combat heavy experience seeking.
White wolf doesn't so much, but you still get gooby types in that.

I found D&D worked really well when I converted it to the system from Blood! A very obscure horror game.
"You take 8 hits" doesn't have the same impact as their nose being sliced off
Bring in horrible wounds and the possibility of gangrene, not to mention medieval medicine, and suddenly the whole dynamic changes.

Very squalid and brutal, but FUN!

GRIM
 
 
moriarty
11:36 / 12.07.01
Does anyone else find it funny that a thread that has evolved into a discussion on power gaming is called "We Won?"

I forgot to mention it in my last post, Grim, but congratulations! And the THAC0 award goes to...

Haus, I'm having a hard time understanding the "camper in an online game" bit, myself. But I won't let it bother me, because it's not like those are real games.

I personally can't stand TSR or White Wolf. I would allow Top Secret (loved that combat system) and Mage to survive, but that's all. My games of choice would include most of the esoteric GURPS books (Bunnies and Burrows, Callahan's Crosstime Salloon, Riverworld, Conan, The Prisoner, and God knows what else I have in the box), Castle Falkentstein, a souped up War of the Worlds, All Flesh Must Be Eaten, Feng Shui, Paranoia, and the Grande Dame of Games, Call of Cthulhu. Mind you, I haven't actually played any of these games, because I'm usually GM. Always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

All this talk makes me realize I haven't actually gamed in half a year. Hmm.

And, Grim, you have good taste. Fuck the unusable GURPS system.
 
 
GRIM
11:42 / 12.07.01
I'm almost always the ST as well.
Which accounts for my out-there PCs.
I never get the chance to develop a theme.
We really should start a new thread in 'Conversation' or something, flush the others out of the woodwork

Call Of Cthulu was a masterpiece, in spite of the rude sounding acronym.
Alas, it has fallen to the d20 madness now too.

I get GearKreig tommorow.

Mmmmm

GRIM
 
 
grant
13:01 / 12.07.01
Yeah, I joined a Star Wars group a while back just for nostalgia's sake -- was shocked at what had happened to the rules.

Oldstyle Call of Cthulhu (specially the "Cthulhu Now" supplement) rocked.

What you say, d20? What unspeakable horror has transpired there?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:06 / 12.07.01
I started playing D&D when I was 12 (way back in...oh shit! 1980). I was a pretty die hard gamer until I graduated High School and then picked it up again on a regular basis in my early 20s. I played every week until 3 years ago. My group fell apart when my marriage did. Now I just don't have the time or the gamers around to play.

quote:Originally posted by GRIM:


We play Feng Shui as much as we play Vampire.



I LOVE Feng Shui. I played once and it's probably one of the few games that might make me want to try and recruit gamers again.

quote:We have an ongoing EPIC Legend Of The Five Rings game going on which has never failed to be involving as long as we've been playing it.

I like 5 rings also. I also thought 7th Seas looked like a worthy game to try.

quote:I also... ::hangs head:: LARP, in The Camarilla, a White Wolf fan organisation. Though I find the pretension level a little high for me sometimes.

I live-roleplayed the WOD (not Mind's Eye but using the live action rules in the main rulebooks (half live action, half table top) and I liked it a lot. I tried Camarilla once and I too didn't like the pretension.

quote:I can't stand GURPS. (Generally Unpopular Roleplaying System) but I LOVE the sourcebooks. Everything you could need.


I played a lot of GURPS from around 1986 to the early '90s and I have to defend GURPS. During that time GURPS really stretched what gamers and gms could and couldn't do. It provided a lot of freedom for creation that other games weren't allowing for and I think a lot of the newer games owes a lot to the climate that GURPS helped create (building on the back of The Fantasy Trip which was also a blast in the early 80s).

GURPS definitely has some problems (I especially hate that there is only one non-physical stat) and it's not what I want to play now but it deserves some respect .

And the worldbooks still rock!

quote:I used to adore White Wolf, but 3rd Edition Mage is heresy, as, I hear, is their new treatment of Werewolf.
Of all their games I like Mage the most, a few of the Magick people here should check it out.


I thought 1st edition Mage was a sound and well developed system but I hated the world and the magic system. It was just too... superhero comic book for me. I didn't think it felt like it belonged in the World of Darkness and I was interested in something closer to what "Kult" was or what GURPS "Voodoo: The Shadow War" was. Personal Taste.

I agree also in that I loved White Wolf up until around Wraith and Changeling and now I really can't stand it. I really liked 1st ed. Vampire and 1st ed. Werewolf though.

quote:D&D - Hate it. Its so stereotyped and so lame. 3rd edition is no better and WOTC are killing the business with their BORG attitude.
Trying to apply their rules to Star Wars just didn't work, and won't work for anyone else.
I will never forgive them for droping Dune.


I agree. My 'step'-son and his friends wanted me to teach them how to RPG and they wanted to try D&D do I picked up 3rd Ed. and we gave it a shot. I didn't think it was necessarily a bad system but it was just...uninspired (which might make it a bad system) and we all just lost interest. They enjoyed the Werewolf campaign I then put together for them but the RPG 'bug' didn't infect them (multiplayer computer games dominates their lives). Maybe Feng Shui though .

I also love Call of Cthulhu. I started playing that back in the early 80s and would continue to do pick up games until I stopped gaming. Pagan Publishing's Delta Green stuff is cool too and their magazine The Unspeakable Oath was great (I don't like the issue that just came out though... very disappointing).

I really miss Kult.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:29 / 12.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Flunitrazepam:
And while I'm asking, whatever happened with the "Year of the Reckoning" schtick? The Antediluvian founder of the Ravnos died, then...nothing.


A bunch of weird prophecy stuff happened (only thing I remember was a new red star appearing in the sky as part of the Werewolf prophecies) which finally culminated in their 6th storyteller game "Hunter: The Reckoning". An interesting concept but the main book didn't make me want to start gaming again.
 
 
nul
15:58 / 12.07.01
The Malkavians all got Dementation, the Assamites escaped their blood curse, Ravnos started killing one another, Tremere came back (sort of)... eh... Various other kooky things. Basically, they're prolonging the "End Times" storyline for as long as they can in Vampire.

Mage apparently had a brilliant idea and poor execution in it's new release. Werewolf is dragging out it's own end times storyline. Wraith is long gone. And Changeling looks the same as ever.

Oh, and then there was Hunter, which isn't as great as one would hope.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:00 / 12.07.01
Tann> A 'camper' in a first-person shooter (think Quake 3, Unreal Tournament) is someone who sits in the same place all the way through the game, picking people off as they run past. Generally derided for having completely no skill, acting cowardly and going against the spirit of the game.
 
 
rizla mission
16:49 / 12.07.01
I've never actually played an RPG (well, not one that was anything more than a drunken 30 minute laugh anyway), mainly due to the sheer unpleasantness of most of the people I've run into who play them.

But <whispers> I love reading Call of Cthulhu and GURPS books .. they're full of good story ideas and generally cool stuff..

Oh, GRIM and pals, I you could do me a bit of a favour could you? My younger brother's big into gaming, but he can't get a regular group together and wants to play something horror/conspiricy related via email? I don't s'pose you could help point him in the right direction..
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
17:22 / 12.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:
Oh, GRIM and pals, I you could do me a bit of a favour could you? My younger brother's big into gaming, but he can't get a regular group together and wants to play something horror/conspiricy related via email? I don't s'pose you could help point him in the right direction..


I highly recommend "Delta Green" by Pagan Publishing. It's a modern day conspiracy campaign book for Call of Cthulhu.

Check out Pagan Publishing and Delta Green sites.
 
 
Traz
09:21 / 13.07.01
reidcourchie, I have to disagree. Yes, TSR and Wizards of the Coast have come out with some interesting settings, especially the Planescape campaign. But take a look at some of the characters that populate that setting; let's take the weakest member of the rilmani race, the plumach, as an example. Their skin is as tough as banded mail and they have a ten percent chance of shrugging off hostile magic. They take no damage from electricity and half damage from acid, gas and poison. Worst of all, they're only struck by magical weapons.

Now, what does all this mean? It means that a first-level warrior with a glow-in-the-dark sword has a better chance of taking this guy out than a twentieth-level barbarian with a club the size of a small elm tree. Enemies of this nature encourage, by their very existence, the acquisition of treasure and experience that will help even the odds. For crying out loud, a first-level mage in the second-edition rules could only cast one spell per day, and then he was cannon fodder for the rest of the session! Which brings us back to the old equation: get more stuff, get more stuff, get more stuff. Kill and take, kill and take, kill and take.

Admittedly, there are ways to circumvent these bizarre notions of so-called "game balance." The first is to tone down the enemies and the second is to allow the character to have powers, instead of items, that put them on equal footing with their adversaries. If the players don't have to spend all their time grubbing around for arcane weapons and used spellbooks, they can focus on social interaction instead. But I've got a question: why should I play D&D, where I have to redesign the rules on character generation into something usable, when I can play GURPS, where the rules are already engineered to flex and bend to my wishes?

[ 13-07-2001: Message edited by: Flunitrazepam ]
 
 
rizla mission
12:55 / 13.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:


I highly recommend "Delta Green" by Pagan Publishing. It's a modern day conspiracy campaign book for Call of Cthulhu.



Already got it. And pretty damn marvelous it is too. I wish it was an ongoing comic book rather than a gaming thingy..
 
 
reidcourchie
06:45 / 16.07.01
Is this to be the role playing thread then?

Originally posted by Rizla
"I've never actually played an RPG (well, not one that was anything more than a drunken 30 minute laugh anyway), mainly due to the sheer unpleasantness of most of the people I've run into who play them."

It would appear you are a closet role player heavily in the denial stage. Actually this does make me wonder. I was actually quite reluctant to admit to being a role player on this forum to the point where I think I was unintentionally a bit rude to someone on a thread about wicker men in one of the previous Barbeliths (I think it was actually Grim, whoever it was I apologise). My feelings about this and comments like the above which having been to Gen Con twice (once my mates persuaded me to go and the seconf time I was working there, I lasted a day and though I'd best leave before I hurt myself or someone else, this lead onto the story of the 2nd shag that saved my life but that's another story.) are not completely without substance. So what's the story is the stigma justified? If so why does this hobby attract so many "unpleasant people"?

Flunitrazepam, I don't really want to get into a which system is best argument. I use D&D because I find the rule very simple, more simple than say the White Wolf stuff which whilst claiming to be a system that very much encourages role play has a time consuming and very dice heavy system. If you prefer Gurps then use Gurps. Now there are systems out there I won't touch because they're messy (like Rolemaster) or because they're too complex for me (like Millenium's Edge), however one thing you should never really hear in a hobby which is supposed to be based primarily around imagination is that the systme makes or forces players into running specific types of games.
 
  

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