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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

The Wire Season 2: Das Kapital

  
  

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Janean Patience
17:53 / 20.09.07
I finished watching series two, and I probably should be trying to remember to call them seasons, about a month ago. So my memories may not be just-caught fresh but they're not exactly faded, either. I appreciate that your recommendation of a rewatch was suggested in the hope that I'd follow more of the smaller details and enjoy the show more but it's clearly a suggestion that has the capacity to annoy because it's not one I can argue against. It's my perception that the same things would disappoint me second time around, and friends who've watched it twice (one friend must have watched it four times, he seriously loves The Wire) substantially agreed with me. I referred back to Seven Soldiers because IIRC I kept getting told I hadn't read that closely enough and to go back to the issues, not because it's a sacred cow here on the Barb. If I'd not mentioned that I didn't plan to rewatch it, d'you think you'd have known?

Anyway. Of my stated reasons, the first, third and fifth kind of tie togther. I felt that the attempt to bring back the cast and put them on a case investigating the stevedores, establishing a status quo of sorts for further series while covering Baltimore issues far removed from the original remit, was at times clumsily done. The writing, script page to script page, was fine but the set-up of the plot and of our bunch of random cops from s1 being turned into a permanent team was sometimes forced. Character arcs were deformed, plot points were glossed over, and the conclusion was unsatisfying because there was work to be done and a third series to be set up.

The inclusion of Omar, Avon and D'Angelo didn't always help, either. Those scenes were good and they were necessary but they were a separate strand to the business at the docks and a distraction that wasn't there first time around. They made the whole thing less cohesive than s1. There was a sense of maneuvering, of getting all the pieces in place for a return to the projects, which possibly also explains the disposable off-the-rack villains. It's the same thing you see in the middle movie of planned trilogies, a certain amount of playing for time and that the big events, any major deaths or triumphs or defeats, are conclusions being saved for next time.

(And I'm only just watching s3, so this isn't written with the benefit of any hindsight.)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:00 / 20.09.07
In defence of Ziggy, while he is pretty much the archetypal useless boy, desperate for the kind of respect that a character like Bodie can take as a given (but that Bodie's been, if not exactly forced then something quite close to it, to earn) he, like Bubbles' drug pal Johnny, I think does need to be there as at least part of an explanation as to why the system fails to work in quite such an unspectacular way. Basically, you need to see characters who've made an active choice to buy into the Corners situation, in whatever fashion, because anything like that requires customers to keep it going.

And surely no one was exactly cheering when Ziggy was carted off to the cells in his last scene?
 
 
Not in the Face
08:06 / 21.09.07
In added defence of Ziggy, he was a necessary component on the strong element of father-son interactions that went on in S2.

Ziggy and Frank don't really get on, Nick always seems is more like the son Frank wanted, and yet its not until the end that Nick's own father makes an appearance, indicating some sort of breakdown in relationship there. This complex dynamic spills over into the drug business as well. The deputy boss, Vondas, clearly feels something paternal towards Nick - although he cuts him loose at the end (but notably doesn't kill him), its what for me saves him from being one-dimensional.

Then you have McNulty - his vague relationship with his kids is one of the things I feel that slowly starts to turn him, plus his ex-wife's boyfriend (and interestingly plays into S4(?)) and how Stringer Bell moves in to D'Angelo's role as father of his child.

As was said upthread, the personal and the political merge together in Wire and the fact that Nick brings Ziggy to a meet with the Greek isn't implausible to me but underlines how much personal contacts and family bonds matter. Ziggy may be a fuck-up who'd be useless if it all went bad, but he would never rat on a family member. This dependance on family, no matter how unreliable, is essential in the face of the uncaring state as epitomised by the FBI in S2.

This ties in with the church window. In a world based on personal relationships status, respect and the power they bring depends on the ability to demonstrate largesse. In this its worth comparing with scenes in the Godfather trilogy. The church window is an element of this. While it may seem trivial to outsiders, to Valchak, Frank and those in their spheres it represents their personal influence and power. Its made abundantly clear that Valchak would never be where he is without the connections he has. The window is confirmation of Valchak's ability to use police resources to gain recognition for that family/ethnic grouping because everyone knows he would never get there on his own merits as police. Similarly for Frank, who consistently fights the informal rules about alternating black and white union chiefs in order to pursue his goals. Having the window is as much a symbol for him to the other dockers that whatever he is doing is working and is raising their profile as it is a key to getting access to the people who make decisions about the grain pier.
 
 
Spaniel
08:22 / 21.09.07
The inclusion of Omar, Avon and D'Angelo didn't always help, either.

I can get behind this. It's difficult because it was necessary for all sorts of reasons to include those elements, but their inclusion didn't quite work for me, not because I wasn't interested in seeing those stories continued/resolved, but because even if they informed the wider plot, I was more interested in what was going on over there.

As for a sense of contrivance, I can get behind that too. I definitely felt that people were being herded together in season 2, but it was done with enough skill so that it didn't bother me. And, if I'm frank, I'm a fan of this show - I love all those bloody characters - and I wanted to see them all playing on the same team, even if that meant we had to skim a little closer to fantasy than usual.

I could've clapped when bunk got on board.
 
 
Spaniel
08:28 / 21.09.07
Another very funny moment was when Freeman and Bunk face off against the FBI guys. I laughed a lot while watching season 2, and that's a big part of why I love it so much.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
01:32 / 22.09.07
The broadening of focus has made me a bit slower to warm up to Season 2. However, this most recent ep had me cackling out loud (Omar testifies) and (just a few moments ago) stomping around the room yelling motherfucker at the TV (D'angelo in the library).
 
 
The Natural Way
07:57 / 22.09.07
Nearly wept last night when I rewatched ep 4. Frank barely containing it in front of the mirror at the end. For one minute there you hate the Bunk and Lester.
 
 
Spaniel
09:40 / 22.09.07
Omar in the dock is fucking hilarious
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
09:51 / 22.09.07
Esp the prosecutor handing him her card afterwards and saying, 'That's good for anything up to aggravated assault.'
 
 
sleazenation
12:35 / 22.09.07
Just out of interest, did anyone here watch this on a one episode a week basis? Seasons 1-3 i watched in boxed sets - season 4 i watched weekly. How about you? How do you feel it affected your readng of it?
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
02:54 / 24.09.07
I liked season 2 almost as much as season one. One of the weak points, I agree, were the flashes back to the characters from the first season.

Prop Joe was included and interacted with the people who were the focus of the season, but the others felt out of place. I expected, with each episode, for someone to meet up with D'Angelo in prison, or for Ziggy to have a run in with someone familiar. It seemed like they were building to some kind of huge revelation that never came. Omar especially seemed to be a forced inclusion. Considering the time that had passed I don't think the series would have lost anything (aside from a great court scene) if the Bird case had never been mentioned.

Ziggy didn't bother me, because he really was just a lower middle class white kid playing gangster and it was done believably. I grew up with plenty of similar guys.

I liked the change of focus in this season, but I wonder if it could have waited until another season, the second being left to deal with the loose ends from season one. Netflix just delivered me season three, but with the way season two ended I don't imagine that we will be seeing the 'Greek' and company again.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:26 / 24.09.07
David Simon did mention, in one of the many interviews I've read, that season 5 could possibly see a return to some of the characters we've seen previously, so mayhap The Greek will rear his beady-eyed head again.
 
 
Spaniel
09:05 / 24.09.07
Potential spoilage in that there post, Pigs. I'm not going to spell out why.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:20 / 01.10.07
S'up young'uns. If nobody else has any points they would like to raise on series two shall we get a new package on the corner of Film TV & Theater for Series 3: War and Peace?
 
 
Spaniel
17:36 / 01.10.07
Yarp
 
 
nedrichards is confused
09:19 / 03.10.07
Just finished season 3 last night so go for it.

I find it very difficult to say anything about The Wire, although I like it immensely. I think it's that everything in it, every concept, every character, is so *big* that I feel the need to let it percolate for say, ten to fifteen years before making a pronouncement. It deserves serious consideration.
 
 
Spaniel
09:34 / 03.10.07
Sleaze, how did you feel about it?

Let's hear a bit more from you, man.
 
 
sleazenation
20:46 / 03.10.07
WEll, given the option I go gorge. It is a danger route than can effect ones sense of reality - I'm up there with Bubs getting the withdrawal shakes as soon as the closeing theme drifts in.

The episodes are substantial enough in themselves, but still leave you waitin' for your man...

Is it the second season where Stringer asks his lecturer what to do in an aggressive marketplace when the product is weak?
 
 
Spaniel
20:53 / 03.10.07
Yeah
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:00 / 07.10.07
IMS, which of the following is the case, since one of them must be:

1) You did not see where it says SPOILERS FOR SEASONS 1 AND 2 ONLY, PLEASE in the summary for this thread.

2) You do not know what a "spoiler" is.

3) You do not give a single solitary fuck about the desire of people who read this thread to remain unspoiled for season 3.

4) You are a completely illiterate motherfucker.

Please let me know which of them is a fact, since one of them must be.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:19 / 07.10.07
I'll take "NONE OF THE ABOVE" Petey, since there were NO SPOILERS IN THAT POST. (Unless saying that Season 3 exists, and it was tragic and it made me appreciate Season 2 more, is in some way a spoiler.)

I've asked for it to be deleted anyway to preserve the peace, 'round here.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:22 / 07.10.07
Are you also incapable of reading your own posts? Look at the bit where you said, about season 3, "I'm a few episodes in and finding SPOILERY SPOILERY SPOILER", and take some responsibility for your mistakes.

Still, it's good you've moved to have that post deleted, although it may be small comfort to the member of the board who PMd me saying that people's inability to be considerate about spoilers is a reason they do not post much in this forum.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:32 / 07.10.07
Only upon reexamination did I see anything in that prior post that could even be vaguely considered a spoiler. I asked for that one to be axed as well, ASAP. On ANY other internet fora I post on, that wouldn't even be considered a spoiler by any stretch of the imagination.

And as for people PMing you? Well, speaking of inconsiderate, maybe they should have PM'd me to complain since it was my faux pas.

But no, I'm obviously a motherfucker, instead.
 
 
Spaniel
17:44 / 07.10.07
I'd just settle for you being a bit of a prat in this instance. Your mention of a certain relationship above is certainly spoilerific in the context of the terms of this thread (which have been discussed).
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:48 / 07.10.07
A prat in this instance I can handle.

Like I said, I didn't consider that observation a spoiler (based as it was, 99% on Season 2 and offering nothing concrete on Season 3) but I also certainly didn't mean to ruin anyone else's enjoyment of the show. I'm happy to axe the offending post, and to use a stricter definition of what is and isn't spoiler-y in the future in these parts.
 
 
HCE
18:26 / 07.10.07
I didn't PM you because the minute I saw 'season 3' I ran shrieking from the room.

I realize that figuring out what is and isn't a spoiler is something that the great minds have grappled with for ages, but I have a crazy idea that just might work:

TALK ABOUT SEASON 3 IN A SEASON 3 THREAD.

Your opinion of whether season 2 or 3 is better? Season 3 thread.
Who is still alive in season 3? Season 3 thread.
What the fucking weather is like in season ? Season 3 thread.

What will happen if you don't mention anything at all whatsoever about season 3 in the season 2 thread? Will your heart stop beating? Do you have a medical condition? Will it be murder?
 
 
Spaniel
08:34 / 08.10.07
This thread has laid out some pretty strong guidance on what should be considered spoilerific hereabouts (and by hereabouts I mean, here, in this specific thread).
 
 
PatrickMM
05:36 / 16.11.07
Please do avoid even descriptions of who's in season three, I love reading the thread after finishing each season, but don't want stuff spoiled.

Anyway, with the show's almost unimpeachable "best show ever" reputation, I thought I was the only one who had issues with the port storyline. But, checking this out, pretty much all the problems I had with the season were listed, mainly the loss of narrative cohesion due to the port storyline, and the less complicated villainy of the Greek and Spiros, next to Avon and Stringer.

That's not to say I didn't love the season. I think it's deeply affecting, and I love that the show chose to broaden its scope beyond drug dealers and police. The end of the season implies that we're returning to that conflict for the third, but to have gone right back to it would have limited possible future exploration of different areas of the city. That said, at the same time, I was much more interested in what was up with the Barksdales. Frank and his crew just weren't smart enough to be a worthy foe for the police. It wasn't like the intricate chess game of season one, where it was quite possible Avon would avoid any charge. Here, it was a matter of waiting for Frank and Ziggy to screw up and either get arrested or killed.

In that sense, it's a Shakespearean approach, we know stuff is going to go bad, it's just a matter of watching it fall apart. I think the show is somewhat stuck by its thematic mission, which is to expose how corrupt and inadaquete the workings of institutions are. That means that we know things will never quite work out for our heroes. Most movies have the problem that you know things are going to be ok in the end, here the problem is you they're not, and never for a second did I think Frank wouldn't end up somewhere awful by the end of the season. That may be what real life is like, but it takes away some of the drama.

Still, there's a ton of great stuff in this season, particularly an expansion of the show's humor. The cops are practically comic relief next to the darker goings on with Barksdale and the port, with the numerous undercover missions and McNulty's trip to the brothel.

And even if things didn't quite cohere in the way that season one did, I'd rather watch a work that has enormous ambition and doesn't quite work out than something which aims low and succeeds.
 
 
Spaniel
07:52 / 16.11.07
While I agree that there is something less complicated about Spiros and the Greek's villainy, there are a number of complicated things that it implies, or points towards

1. The a rather complex relationship between international crime, international terroism and government agencies
2. In light of the above, what happens on the Baltimore streets factors into a much bigger, and even more worrying picture
3. That worrying picture includes crimes other than drug dealing: international human trafficking, for example.
4. That the local drugs trade is a subset of international crime that cannot be tackled by local law enforcement

I'm sure there is some other stuff, but it's first thing in the morning and I'm tired.

Looking at the individuals in question, however, I don't think we can make too many broad statements about them. Sure, they're presented as more straightforwardly bad than Stringer and Avon, but let's not forget Spiros's relationship with Nicky, and let's remember that the Wire is show that always holds the potential to open things up further - that's a big part of what it does. 'Cause while Simon is on record as saying that some characters are supposed to be more sympathetic than others, the beauty of the Wire's way of doing things is that I always assume there is more to character than I might get to see. There is nothing in the show that suggests that Spiros and the Greek aren't just as complicated as BnB, it's just that we haven't seen much in the way of complicating factors thus far.

I can see how that argument could seem really woolly, but it makes sense to me.

As for the show's thematic mission spoiling the drama, I recognise the complaint. I've levelled it at other things in the past - particularly Ken Loach films - but I'm not entirely sure it fits here. For a start the Wire's novelistic approach makes it difficult to cling to any season's set of resolutions, and, I dunno, there are certainly things in later seasons that suggest the show isn't quite as straightforward as you're painting it.
 
 
PatrickMM
05:18 / 20.11.07
In the case of the Greek and Spiros, yes, they're clearly people, not cartoon bad guys, but I don't have empathy for them in the way that I did for Stringer and Avon. And, for them, Baltimore is just one stop on a long journey, they can walk away without losing a lot, that's something Avon and Stringer can't, or won't do. I can certainly see why the characters were the way they were, but emotionally, I didn't respond to it in the way I did to the season one stuff.

Plus, without getting into spoilers, I can see your point about the uncertain resolutions as I'm watching season three. In season one, I wasn't sure what would happen to anyone, I seriously doubted they would get Avon, and was surprised when they did. I have no clue what's going to happen to anyone in season three, but by the mid point of season two I was pretty sure that The Greek and Spiros would walk away from the ports while Frank and Ziggy would end up either dead or in jail. It's still exciting to watch the story unfold, but there's not that uncertainty about what would happen, and as such, it's less exciting to watch.
 
 
Spaniel
07:52 / 20.11.07
Well, I suppose it's a matter of taste. I take your point entirely - Season 2 is less suspenseful (at least it was to me), and could be argued that it is less exciting in some strict sense of the word. However, I found it much more emotionally engaging than Season 1 because I was so wrapped up in the dockers' tragedy. So, as far as entertainment goes, the second season just edges it for me.

Glad you're starting to see what I was getting at about uncertainty. It's not that outright disagree with anything you've said on the point, just that the Wire, at least to these eyes, appears to be a little more fuzzy than you seemed to be allowing for.
 
  

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