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The Wire Season 2: Das Kapital

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
10:20 / 18.09.07
"Before, you wanted to know nothing. Now, you ask. Guns, okay? Drugs. Whores. Vodka. BMWs. Beluga caviar. Or bombs, maybe. Bad terrorists with big nuclear bombs." - Spiros

Time to get this one up and running, I think, and this time I'm not going to write too much in the first post* - I'm hoping lots of other people have stuff to say about this one, and we can get up to 50 posts or so of mostly substantive discussion as quickly as the first thread did. If we do that, then we can get the funding and political support we need to get the canal dredged, so that our boys can start unloading more than just bulk-break, and there'll be real jobs for this community agai-

Sorry, don't know what came over me. I have to confess, I still quite don't understand what "bulk-break" is. I guess I could look it up on Wikipedia, but that feels like cheating somehow. I'd rather find out honestly, y'know? With my hands, like my father did. Not with computers. Computers that are taking jobs away from men who worked here their whole lives -

Okay, wait, I did it again. Point is, I love Season 2 of The Wire. It's both self-contained and it opens the show up and really reveals how it's not, in fact, just an exceptionally good crime/cop drama, it really is all those portentous and serious sound things people say about it: a treatise on the troubles of the American working class in an age of unfettered global capitalism and technological advancement, and so on. I also find Frank Sobotka to be one of the most compellingly tragic figures in the show, because what happens to him is just so inevitable: the very first episode sets it all up - the bad things he's done, the arguably good motives he had to do those things, and the immediate consequences. From there, things just unravel as they must: it strikes me as - and this is over-used but I mean it - genuinely Shakespearean. With a large helping of Arthur Miller.

And yet as Boboss said elsewhere, this show is not like eating your greens, apart from the greens you find tasty. It might be good for you, but this season also has some of the funniest moments the show has seen: drunken McNulty on the rampage, for example, crashing his car twice to make sure he gets it right; or again, the meta-joke of McNulty's bad English accent, plus the man-purse, the Carry On Po-lice situation he gets into on the sting, "spot on!"... Hilarious shit.

Fun trivia fact: just as when in season 1, the writers had Fitz the Fed say that due to 9/11 the Bureau was pulling agents off drug enforcement to focus on counter-terrorism, before any announcement had been made (and the announcement duly came), all the talk about condominiums being built on the grain pier in Baltimore if it didn't reopen turned out to prophetic: there are condos there now.

*This did not go according to plan, the case got legs, "I told you to wrap this up in a month, Lieutenant!" etc.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:05 / 18.09.07
"[W]e are not selling hope, or audience gratification, or cheap victories with this show. The Wire is making an argument about what institutions—bureaucracies, criminal enterprises, the cultures of addiction, raw capitalism even—do to individuals. It is not designed purely as an entertainment. It is, I'm afraid, a somewhat angry show." - David Simon.

The 'opening up' of the narrative is one of the key things here. Although there was a certain unity-of-place to having most of the action in the first series take place in the Pit, the police station, Orlandos and a handful of other places, series 2 opens up the whole city- the whole world even. Instead of being focussed on a single African-American street gang, series 2 shows the Barksdale/Stringer group to be a single point in a network encompassing crooked-but-ultimately-good dock workers and 'Greek' kingpins, brothel madams and even their rivals in Proposition Joe's cartel.
Also interesting was the partial sidelining of McNulty, ostensibly the show's protagonist. For most of the season he's working in the Harbor patrol, and though his part-time investigation into the murdered girl dovetails with Valchek's increasingly ludicrous grudge against Frank he doesn't seem as central to the show as he did in the first season. He's still 100% hard-boiled, but we see a little more to him in this season: the scene where he goes home with Beadie and can't bring himself to sleep with her is as beautiful as any of his drunken rampages. Similarly, Omar gets put on the back burner this season, and is joined by an even more improbable super-assassin in Brother Mouzone.
Obviously we're supposed to sympathize with Frank, and we do, but I found myself equally sympathetic to a less obvious character: Stringer Bell. He's not a soldier like Avon or a people-person like D'Angelo, he's a businessman faced with a nearly impossible situation after his crew starts selling a lousy product and is forced to make a difficult choice: give up part of the Towers or go under forever. Whereas Avon was a feudal lord, Stringer is a CEO, with all that entails.
One thing I didn't like this season was the final act, which felt rushed- at one point the show even had a montage to move things along. There was also non-diagetic music, which I know is a minor concern, breaking up an otherwise consistent style.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:16 / 18.09.07
I always wonder to what extent Springer's actions are always motivated by business to the extent to which he would claim and people tend to assume, though: having D'Angelo killed, without Avon knowing about it, is arguably just as much to do with his relationship with Donette as it is with Dee becoming "out of reach" and therefore a threat.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
13:43 / 18.09.07
I found myself equally sympathetic to a less obvious character: Stringer Bell.

I found myself in the same position in S2, and even into S3. Actually, right now I'm about halfway through Simon and Burns' The Corner, which is sort of nonfiction source material for much of The Wire, and reading it increases the Stringer-is-intriguing factor. He's ruthless, yeah, but it's pretty clear that the entry-level drug market is a motherfucker of a harsh place to come out of, and being a ruthless, murdering drug-cartel CEO is probably still an impressive achievement.

It's arguable that Bell doesn't do much that wasn't done in the founding of other big-money dynasties (the Kennedys, maybe?).
 
 
Spaniel
14:31 / 18.09.07
I completely share your love of Season 2, Petey. In fact Seasons 2 and 4 of the Wire jockey in the Bobossbrain for the title of best telly Season ever in the world ever.

As Phex has already mentioned, this is the season where it all opens up, where we start to get a glimpse of the big picture, and how that picture encompasses everything from the street, to the docks, to city hall, and - in the final reel - we go right to the top: to the national response to the War on Terror. The real trick, though, is focussing on dying industry and a group of white working class men - a move which, if anyone was still in any doubt, makes it explicit this is show more concerned with class than race (although, of course, it is concerned with race).

Must go. Train....
 
 
_Boboss
19:07 / 18.09.07
is season two the one where they have the wake in the pub? a truly excellent ten mins of telly that, due mainly to bunk and lester's eye-rolling reaction to the irish song (which they know every word of - is it the pogues or traditional?), sentimentality so cloying it literally makes you puke in the street. funnier than any recent comedy that comes to mind - amazing the range and diversity of affect the show achieves in this series, i guess that's what you can do not only when you have credible characters, but also give them a credibly compromisd milieu to struggle in.

(sorry, if it's not season two that could be a spoiler, hardly a major one though.)

loving these wire threads folks, we'd planned the great re-watch to coincide with the end of season five, but you're making it very hard not to start right now..
 
 
_Boboss
19:10 / 18.09.07
oh yeah, just remembered the fat comedy sarge gets a moment of real pathos in that scene too, completely against the supposed flow of his character. damn it's good
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
20:10 / 18.09.07
I think that funeral is Season 3.

And speaking of the fat comedy sergeant, that reminds me of something weird I recently uncovered: that character's name is Jay Landsman. In David Simon's first book, Homicide, in which he recounts spending a year with the real-world Baltimore PD, a lot of time is given to a wisecracking Homicide sergeant named Jay Landsman. I thought the recurrence of the name was kind of interesting, and in double-checking to make sure I wasn't misremembering the name of Fat Comedy Sergeant, I found out something weird: the real Jay Landsman appears on The Wire... in Season 3, he's Bunny Colvin's deputy (I think the two of them appear occasionally in S1 and S2, but usually in the background).
 
 
_Boboss
20:55 / 18.09.07
apologies. please remove posts if too spoilerish.

pandemic pandemic.

arse, that's s3 too isn't it?
 
 
sleazenation
10:23 / 19.09.07
I dunno. I agree with everyone about how season two effectively broadens the canvas of the wire, but the thing that disppoints me about it is that there are many characters left at the end of the season that we just don't see again. I guess I'm mainly talking about the dockers here. There are plenty of places to go with the decline of the ongoing decline of the docks. I guess issues of unemployment are addressed more in season three through one specific character (whose identitiy I won't reveal), but it struck me that these characters were being swept aside and ignored when they no longer had a purpose - much like the dockers in real life, I guess.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:15 / 19.09.07
I loved the first series of The Wire, and I don't normally like much TV. Others rave about stuff that leaves me wondering if I've missed something. But the ever-advancing complexity of the story, the depth of the characters, the sense of speed on both sides as Daniels's team built their case and Barksdale's operation got wise to it was superb. It's an achievement unmatched on TV and something only a serial medium can do.

Series two? Not so good. An impression that was shared with all the people I know IRL who watched it, but apparently isn't the case here on Barbelith. It takes me back to my spoilsport assault on Seven Soldiers, but I'd like to understand how it can be someone's favourite series when I found it so obviously flawed. So I'll enumerate my reasons for disliking it and I hope I can be persuaded that I'm wrong.

* The Stained Glass McGuffin
It all began with a window in a church, the Major pissed off that the stevedores' window had taken the spot he wanted for the police. So he abuses his position and turns a personal argument into police business. That could happen, sure, but this was such an obvious kick-off for the plot that the writers seemed almost embarrassed about it. The church and the window were barely mentioned again. A case unit is put together at Valchek's request but, given that we already know how much trouble this causes already overstretched police departments wouldn't that be more difficult than it appears? After all the politics it took in the first series it's hard to believe it's so easy in this one. And that same case unit, so careful to feed their superiors what they wanted while getting on with their own work last time, apparently forget that it's Frank that Valchek has a vendetta against and don't get anything to pin on him. It's an obvious McGuffin, it's badly used and it's unworthy of this show's high writing standards.

* The Bad Guys
Something else that suffers in contrast to the first season. Avon and Stringer are well-rounded, complex, intelligent and sympathetic characters. The villains of this series could be moonlighting from any Steven Seagal movie. Standard Euro-baddies, the sinister old man stepping in at the end of the first episode to personally torture a man being a very familiar cliche. They never become more than two-dimensional, the Greek and his fixer, and never step out of a well-worn villainous groove. They exist to provide a threat. They tell us nothing about the drugs trade, the people-smuggling trade, the problems of Baltimore. They're shadowy bad people who slip off into international airspace leaving not a trace of their presence, and as such they should be in a weak action movie rather than a stellar police procedural.

* Getting The Team Back Together
The case unit had to be recreated for narrative reasons, I understand that. But it was clumsy. Valchek wanting Daniels made narrative sense after his previous achievements. But Daniels picking the whole of the previous unit? What, he never knew any cops from before series one that he'd want to work with? Freamon, who's just been transferred to Homicide after 18 years in the wilderness, is going to be happy to work a bullshit case? It's clumsy and you can see the bones of narrative necessity sticking through.

* Ziggy
This is the big one. Man, did I hate Ziggy. Why was he there? What did he illustrate? A fuck-up fucks up and continues to fuck up until he fucks up royally. Who gives a fuck? He had no narrative arc. He wasn't sympathetic. His relationship with his father, which the last scene they shared tried to imply was the whole point of him, wasn't touched upon. (Presumably he had a mother, Frank's wife. I don't remember her appearing or mattering to anyone.) He took the D'Angelo role, the focus guy on the opposite side from the cops, and got the equivalent screen time but did nothing with it. From D we learned about the game, the toll it takes on a person, and the unavoidable realities of being black in West Baltimore. From Ziggy we learned nothing about the plight of the stevedores or of the white working classes or of his side of the game. That was all Nick, who should have been the focal character but spent much of his screen time as a foil for Ziggy. Nich was the guy who wanted to be like Frank, who couldn't survive waiting for the grain pier to reopen, who got involved in the criminal side and mixed up with some heavy people and ended up a drug dealer, the kind of person he hated. It was Nick who suffered and his suffering that illustrated the stevedore's decline. But instead we spent our time with Ziggy, who had a duck on a leash.

One of the writers of Father Ted explains a subplot that was cut in the scriptbook by saying that if you can remove an entire subplot or character from a script without it affecting anything else, then it shouldn't have been in in the first place. You could cut Ziggy. He could be excised entire and all you'd need to come up with is a new motivation for Frank to meet with the Greek at the end. Ziggy was a waste of screen time.

* McNulty Comes In From The Cold

The narrative arc of McNulty in this series was great until the writers choked. What does a police, a serious police who lives for the job, do when he's not a police any more? How does he cope? He tries to be a police, he uses his skills to take revenge on his old boss, he tries out being that old cliche of the detective that won't quit detecting, and then he gives up. He's getting nowhere chasing stolen women around the state on his own time. He's not missing the politics and bullshit of the job he left behind. He's seeing his kids more than he ever used to and beginning the fragile reconstruction of a relationship with his ex-wife. He seems genuinely to be happier, even if he's uncomfortable with that.

So the next episode McNulty's drunk and self-destructive, in a serious mess, and his friends decide that he needs to be a serious police again. They easily persuade his old boss, who hated him even before the guy fucked him over in a massive way, to let him back on the force. He rejoins the case unit... and does nothing. His skills aren't necessary. The little he does for the case could have been done from the Harbour Police. He's brought back, ending an interesting and novel character arc, to Get The Team Back Together and, as far as I can tell, for nothing more. It stretches credibility, it accomplishes nothing, and it makes McNulty less interesting. Not a great move.

* The Ghost In The Machine

Daniels vs Barksdale, an expertly-run drug operation vs the wire, was a thrilling race. Just as the police put together enough information to make some arrests the dealers would be working out how they were getting caught. The eventual convictions were barely secured, the police not one step ahead but half a step, a tiptoe, their results sensational in contrast to what went before but the drug business's losses are well within acceptable parameters. Avon always knew he'd get caught someday. He was prepared. The game goes on.

Our police are way more up on shit the second time around. They know what they can do with the wire, by cloning computers, with good surveillance. So the bad guys get a Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free card with their contact in the FBI, who apparently sits at an empty desk eating and waiting to tell the Greek what's going on. The case unit doesn't fail because of their own limitations or because they fuck up. They fail because there's a leak on their side, one that's not set up or followed up, who at crucial moments keeps the bad guys one step ahead. It's a cheat and a poor one designed with a chosen ending in mind. It takes away from the resonance that the first series had.

There's lots of stuff I loved in series two. Flyboy's description of Frank's arc as genuinely Shakespearean with a large helping of Arthur Miller is apt. But the holes in the plotting which good writing couldn't cover made it an unsatisfying experience. All argument to the contrary welcomed.
 
 
Spaniel
11:18 / 19.09.07
I think we shouldn't be talking about who turns up again.

I'm interested in the idea that the end of season 2 was rushed. Having watched it (the end of the season) two times recently I have to say that I don't agree, with vigour! Okay, so a lot happens in those last two episode but, to my mind at least, it never feels as if the writers were struggling to fit everything in. It all just sort of slotted into place, neat and tidy like. And, ya know, I was genuinely worried they were gonna fuck it up for a minute there.
Sure, they use a montage at a couple of points. The first isn't used for anything you'd really want to see given more screen time - just a bunch of raids and the criminals housecleaning, if I recall correctly. That's the stuff Simon and co on the whole aren't very interested in, at least they're not interested the whole action movie side of it. The second is the standard close of season montage, which, granted, does a little bit of storytelling legwork, but just about every beat it hits has the cold hand of inevitability behind it: Beady in the radio car*, the dockers on the lash, the Stevedore branch office closed, the detail shutting down, and, most importantly, the corner boys steady slinging.

Also, what's wrong with a bit of non diagetic music? Okay, so the Wire doesn't go in for it too often for a variety of good reasons, but I'm not sure any season is entirely free of it (all the end of season montages are overlaid with a tune). Frankly, I think it usually works a lot better than trying to get diagetic music to do work traditionally farmed out to the non-diagetic variety, something the Wire is guilty of (a particular instance in season 3 springs immediately to mind).

Must post soon on what I like about this season.

*In this case the montage serves to reinforce the cruel reality that the second that detail is over it's back to the car for her
 
 
Spaniel
11:21 / 19.09.07
...After I finish butting heads with Janean

Later for that
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:21 / 19.09.07
I will, but I barely know where to start. The stained glass window thing, for example... the whole point is how something so arbitrary and petty and personal can be what initiates a chain of events that brings Frank Sobotka down. That the death of the 12 girls in that can isn't actually what does it - were it not for McNulty's equally personal grievance, those deaths would not even have been treated as murders.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:40 / 19.09.07
To go into specifics:

A case unit is put together at Valchek's request but, given that we already know how much trouble this causes already overstretched police departments wouldn't that be more difficult than it appears? After all the politics it took in the first series it's hard to believe it's so easy in this one.

This is covered, explicitly. It actually happens because of "all the politics"! Valchek goes to Burrell and says hey, I reckon you're going to be the next Commissioner. Burrell says well, maybe, but the First District guys are pushing some white guy. Valchek - who reading between the lines probably knew that when he went into Burrell's office - says leave it to me, I've got suction with the Hall and the First District, I'll bring them into line. Burrell, seeing how blatant a favour-for-a-favour arrangment this is, can't even hide the laugh in his voice as he says "What, if anything, is there that I can do for you, Major Valchek?"

And that's how things get done in the Baltimore Police Department, and institutions all over the world.

And that same case unit, so careful to feed their superiors what they wanted while getting on with their own work last time, apparently forget that it's Frank that Valchek has a vendetta against and don't get anything to pin on him.

I think this can be easily explained by the difference between Daniels in season 1 and season 2, and the difference between Valchek and Rawls - in the former case, Daniels is less willing to play ball with the chain of command than he once was (there's no mole this time either, remember), and I think Valchek is just taken a bit less seriously by the unit than Rawls - probably with good reason, since even when Prez hits him, he can't do that much about it. And anyway, the only person who might have said "oh hey, I think the Mayor has a personal grudge against Frank Sobotka so we should make sure we pin a charge on him" is Prez, and it's not hard to believe he'd forget.

It's an obvious McGuffin, it's badly used and it's unworthy of this show's high writing standards.

"'What's right,' huh? What's right would be for you to come down here to my house like a decent human being and ask a common courtesy. But that's not you - it's not your way. My old man always said you were a half-assed punk over at Holy Redeemer, as a kid. And my sister said you were a pain-in-the-ass pest at all them CYO dances where none of the girls would even look at you. And damn near everyone at the Point said when you got your badge, it was too much for anybody named 'Valchek' to have even a patrolman's drag. And sure enough, you've been an official asshole every day since. Fuck you! And your window!"

How's that for high writing standards?
 
 
Thorn Davis
12:14 / 19.09.07
It makes me sad to see Ziggy listed as something that was "shit" about Season 2 of The Wire, as he was one of my favourite things about it. I think saying he was somehow an equivalent to D'Angelo misses the point; the second series isn't a symmetrical re-run of the first. It's something rather different in scope and form, which is why I think complaints that certain elements aren't the same as or comparable to the first series are perhaps misguided. By this point, the programme's not really a police procedural, but a kind of 21st century version of Bleak House.

It may be possible to remove Ziggy from the plot without it affecting the outcome drastically, but I think there's an emotional resonance that would be lost. Watching Ziggy trying to step out from the shadow of his forbear with glitz, with acquisitions with posturing and getting beaten down at every turn before cracking up was thematically relevant as well as being plausible, and compelling to watch. Ziggy was a terrific character, and made for an important parallel to Nicky's motivations. I definitely think the second series would have been poorer without him.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:26 / 19.09.07
Agreed. A lot of JP's observations simply do not ring true to my remembered experience of watching season 2 a couple of times - and I don't just mean subjectively, I mean in terms of what actually happens. I don't, for example, think we spend more time with Ziggy than we do with Nick: Nick gets the final shot of the season, and we see a lot more of his home life.

His relationship with his father, which the last scene they shared tried to imply was the whole point of him, wasn't touched upon.

This is also at best an exaggeration. Think of that scene in the third episode, 'Hot Shots', in which the guy who was going to leave the I.B.S. goes to the bar and gets the illicit money that's come indirectly from Frank, while Ziggy sits there just having done a deal on stolen video cameras. That's all about how Ziggy learnt from his dad that you get more money breaking the rules than doing honest work, even when that wasn't what Frank was trying to teach him. Plus, the whole point is that Frank has never been there enough for Zig - that he has a better relationship with Nick, even.

It's worth noting as well that Ziggy is not comparable with the corner boys, say, because his situation is so much less desperate than theirs at the beginning of the season, and so his fate is so much more his own creation. That's true of most of the guys at the docks, actually, and I think it's an important delineation to make - but at least Nicky is motivated partly by the desire to put a roof over his girlfriend and daughter's heads. Ziggy just wants more money, and I think respect, than he has. His problems are arguably more personal than they are political (though The Wire is usually very good at showing how the two interact).

And Ziggy rings true. He is teeth-grindingly hard to spend more than a couple of minutes with at a time. There are so many people out there like that. Human beings are not always well-rounded or all that three-dimensional. I'm pretty sure everybody knows or has met somebody like Ziggy.
 
 
Spaniel
12:36 / 19.09.07
I will, but I barely know where to start. The stained glass window thing, for example... the whole point is how something so arbitrary and petty and personal can be what initiates a chain of events that brings Frank Sobotka down. That the death of the 12 girls in that can isn't actually what does it - were it not for McNulty's equally personal grievance, those deaths would not even have been treated as murders.

Do you know, I was just thinking about producing this very response. Bang on the money.
 
 
Spaniel
12:44 / 19.09.07
I'm pretty sure everybody knows or has met somebody like Ziggy.

I sure as shit have. I found the character extremely compelling viewing for that very reason.
 
 
Bamba
14:04 / 19.09.07
I too had issues with Ziggy in this season. I'm having trouble putting them into words, maybe because it's been a while since I've seen season 2 and I'm currently watching 4, but my memories are of him being whiny, stupid, utterly pointless and so unable to do anything right that the character was approaching some kind of parody. It was so grindingly inevitable that he'd fuck up every situation that it sucked the life out of any scenes he was in, you were just waiting from him to screw up so you could get it over with and maybe move on to something that mattered. Like near the middle of the season where Nick goes to meet the Greek and Ziggy whines at him to be allowed to come along. Before Nick ever says yes you can see the scene in your head. Everyone sits down at the diner, Ziggy insults people and acts like a bumbling child, Nick apologises and rolls his eyes, the end. Which is exactly what happens. Then when he takes a package from Cheese on credit, again you know it's going to go horribly wrong and Nick's going to need to wade in to his mess to try and fix it.

I dunno, maybe I'm looking through whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses are here, but I can't think of a single thing he added, certainly nothing that would make up for the drudgery of watching him bumble predictably through the entire thing.
 
 
Thorn Davis
14:31 / 19.09.07
I can't think of a single thing he added

If you think of it in terms of Frank Sobotka kind of representing the death of the American working class, then Ziggy and Nicky are kind of the offspring of that generation, going in two different directions - one attempting to replicate the lifestyle of his predecessors but unable to do so due to the changes in the economic climate - illustrated in part by scenes such as his visit to his Grandmother's house, which is now ridiculously far out of his price range due to the gentrification of the area, and the lack of work at the docks.

The other - Ziggy - is spoilt by the success his father's hard work has brought. He's lazy. He doesn't need to work - the first time we see him, he's sacked from his job because he's incompetent but it doesn't matter because daddy's power will get him the job back the next morning. He doesn't need to try, but he's greedy, materialistic and, underneath his bravado he's painfully insecure because the fact he's never had to try has destroyed his sense of self-worth, something he thing he can buy up with posessions, with expensive clothes, cars and posturing. He represents people like myself - spolit lazy by their parents' success and conned into thinking that self expression and self worth can be bought. That's why he's essential to the series. He's like Nathan Barley. He's every cockend who thinks shopping is a creative act. That's why he's essential to the series, because he represents the other avenue for his generation.
 
 
Thorn Davis
14:37 / 19.09.07
Sorry. I went off on one abit with the ziggy-love. I do think he represents a significant attitude prevalent in his generation, enough that it was something that needed to be depicted alongside Nicky's motivations and character.
 
 
Spaniel
14:46 / 19.09.07
He's also the certainty or Frank's doom personified if yer gonna get all symbolic about it. I think Ziggy is the primary reason why the season is haunted by an all pervading feeling of tragedy.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
15:32 / 19.09.07
I understand the mechanism of Ziggy in terms of the storytelling and message just fine, but the actual presence of Ziggy was such a toothache that it detracted. Plus, unlike Prez (and I'll get back to Prez again, as his S1 evolution continues in S2), after a bit of Ziggy you realize that there is nothing but inevitability to his fuck-ups, which robs the character of most dramatic potential.

If I felt like there was some chance that Ziggy might get his head on straight and act like a human, I'd have some investment in the character, but after a season of yelling "PLEASE GOD SOMEBODY JUST SHOOT ZIGGY ALREADY" at the screen, I have no patience for him.

Sticking to S1 and S2: Prez, Frank, D'Angelo, Bodie, McNulty in his worse moments... you have this sick lurching "will he or won't he" dread where you know the character can make a good choice or a bad choice. But Ziggy's such a cipher character that you know he's going to make the bad choice.

Again, I understand the why of Ziggy. I just really hated Ziggy. It's like watching a production of Macbeth where Lady Macbeth is played by a combination of Paris Hilton and Hitler. The character is by necessity a crapweasel, but inspires such gut loathing that it's hard not to just spit with fury at what's going on on-stage.

I'm not sure if the actor is remarkably good or just innately annoying. The only other thing I've ever seen him in was an episode of Love Monkey (don't ask) where he basically played Ziggy with a keyboard.

Edit: Checking IMDB, I have also seen James Ransone in Ken Park, in which he played a young Ziggy, and Inside Man, where he plays Ziggy in a bank heist.
 
 
Bamba
16:55 / 19.09.07
Sorry. I went off on one abit with the ziggy-love. I do think he represents a significant attitude prevalent in his generation, enough that it was something that needed to be depicted alongside Nicky's motivations and character.

Don't apologise dude, as I said it's been a while since I've watched this season and I strongly suspected I was painting Ziggy blacker in my memory than he really was. That said, I think a character could easily represent your lazy materialism without actually having to be such a relentless whining loser. It's not that he just sits there expecting everything handed to him on a plate, it's that he's barely capable of opening his mouth without fucking something up or pissing someone off, and generally with no awareness of how or why. He's fucking Homer Simpson in a puffa jacket, and watching this barely believable loon of a character stalk the boards of something like The Wire just, well, it just depresses me. Had he started out like that and actually progressed as a human being then I'd likely have been as invested in him as I am in any of the characters (more so even) but he just doesn't. He's a selfish, self-obsessed, irritating, brainless burden on everyone around him at the start...and he finishes exactly the same way. Granted, I wasn't expecting the shooting at the end so the character surprised me in that one instance --my assumption up until that point was a sticky end at the hands of someone like Cheese after he'd pulled one final hare-brained stunt-- and your comment about him being desperate for respect after never really having to earn it his entire life does have me looking at that scene again differently. From that point of view it could be read that the entire season of him getting laughed at and pissed on is necessary background to make it believable that he'd just snap one day and gun down his most recent taunter. At the time though I was just "Well, yeah, of course he's shot some guy over nothing and is going to jail, he's Ziggy, he's an utter fuckup, it's just what he does. *yawn*". Hell, I could practically hear him yelp "D'oh!" and slap his face with his palm as he sat in the car afterwards.
 
 
Spaniel
17:05 / 19.09.07
this barely believable loon

I think that might well be the key to our difference of opinion, Bamba. Like Petey I know Ziggy. I've fucking met the pillock, a number of times. To me, despite the inevitability of his fuck-ups, he's really very real indeed.

it could be read that the entire season of him getting laughed at and pissed on is necessary background to make it believable that he'd just snap one day and gun down his most recent taunter

Well, I think that's undeniably part of the intention, if not the totality of it.
 
 
Spaniel
17:10 / 19.09.07
By the way, it needs to be said that I did find Ziggy annoying. You'd have to have half a brain not to.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:39 / 20.09.07
Flyboy: The stained glass window thing, for example... the whole point is how something so arbitrary and petty and personal can be what initiates a chain of events that brings Frank Sobotka down.

It's the insignificant domino that ends up destroying the whole union. Which is a concept I like and entirely fits the hubris of Frank's character, the angry Polack willing to take on anybody and do anything to get that dream of a working dock back. But it seemed to me like the show was embarrassed of this first domino, that after the first episode it wanted to forget it, which is what makes it a McGuffin. Once the plot's in motion this instigator, which being a stained glass window is more than ready to carry some weighty symbolism, is forgotten about. Frank's speech is terrifically written but it's still covering something that's treated as a weak link and forgotten in subsequent episodes.

You're right about the politics of putting together a case unit being covered, but I can't agree with you on why Daniels failed to follow his original brief. If you're asked to do a job, and especially if it's clear that this is personal to your boss, you make sure you're throwing him bones. If you worked as a concept artist for Jaguar and they asked for a sketch of an XF in front of the Grand Canyon you'd better make sure the car is the focus. Saying "Well, once I got working I found the Grand Canyon much more interesting to draw so I moved the car to the side of the composition and made it much smaller," isn't going to cut it. Saying "We ain't got much on Frank Sobotka, the target of this case unit, but look at the great stuff we're doing for other departments," is stupid and out of character. To me it's another example of the McGuffin being treated as an obvious and embarrassing device.

I don't, for example, think we spend more time with Ziggy than we do with Nick: Nick gets the final shot of the season, and we see a lot more of his home life... Ziggy just wants more money, and I think respect, than he has. His problems are arguably more personal than they are political (though The Wire is usually very good at showing how the two interact).

I'd swear we get a lot more of Ziggy than of Nicky but I'm not prepared to watch the series again to check. Either way, Nicky isn't an engaging character but his problems are representative of the stevedores that Frank is ostensibly trying to serve. He's interesting because of what he is and where he is and what he represents. Ziggy's problems are more personal and can't all be directly related to his upbringing, who his dad is, or the culture of materialism he's surrounded by. And while no, not every character has to have a symbolic role in the narrative, when you've essentially got only three stevedore characters to weigh one down with such serious personal problems that he's repulsive to other characters and viewers alike seems an odd move.

Bamba: My memories are of Ziggy being whiny, stupid, utterly pointless and so unable to do anything right that the character was approaching some kind of parody. It was so grindingly inevitable that he'd fuck up every situation that it sucked the life out of any scenes he was in, you were just waiting from him to screw up so you could get it over with and maybe move on to something that mattered. It could be read that the entire season of him getting laughed at and pissed on is necessary background to make it believable that he'd just snap one day and gun down his most recent taunter. At the time though I was just "Well, yeah, of course he's shot some guy over nothing and is going to jail, he's Ziggy, he's an utter fuckup, it's just what he does. *yawn*".

Nothing enlivened Ziggy like his end. The irony being that he's finally not fucked something up, he's stolen a bunch of cars and intelligently sends any investigation in the wrong direction, and then he gets fucked over. But because we'd seen nothing but a series of stock situations where he tried to impress his peers and got it diametrically wrong, like a character from Little Britain jumping through predictable hoops, then it was no surprise when he fucked up yet again. It wasn't crucial to the narrative, just one more tragedy at the end of Frank's world. And if it said anything about a youth culture of materialism it was too confused to come across.

Thorn: He's greedy, materialistic and, underneath his bravado he's painfully insecure because the fact he's never had to try has destroyed his sense of self-worth, something he thing he can buy up with posessions, with expensive clothes, cars and posturing. That's why he's essential to the series, because he represents the other avenue for his generation.

Ziggy as an icon of materialism hadn't occurred to me but yeah, in retrospect it's clear that's his role. And rather than the equivalent of a spoiled middle-class kid, I'd suggest his jealousy is more of the corner boys with their tinted Navigators and their bling, to use an outdated term. These are the peers he's seeing every day, from the same streets and the same school, but they've got the money and the clothes and he hasn't. That understanding gives him another level of meaning and thanks for pointing it out. But it still doesn't explain why he had to be that fuck-up guy.

Boboss: He's also the certainty or Frank's doom personified if yer gonna get all symbolic about it. I think Ziggy is the primary reason why the season is haunted by an all-pervading feeling of tragedy.

Nah, Frank's the reason. From the first episode we can see that this is a man who's holding onto a dream of the past so tightly that he can't see what his docks, his men, and he have become. Even if he'd not been arrested there's no guarantee the grain pier would have reopened. He'd become, like Nick, useful to some people for his access and his money but there was never going to be much reward and certainly not the reward he hoped for. The docks are already over but Frank won't believe it. His failure to confront the realities of the modern age dooms him and everyone else.

Like Petey I know Ziggy. I've fucking met the pillock, a number of times. To me, despite the inevitability of his fuck-ups, he's really very real indeed.

Yes, I've known someone similar as well. And I didn't trust him to come to the pub with me, let alone go and meet major drug traffickers.

I like this insistence by both of you that you know Ziggy. I can't help but picture you side by side, Flyboy saying "I know Ziggy, man," and rolling his eyes pointedly in Boboss's direction, Boboss saying "Boy, do I know an arsehole like Ziggy," and inclining his head meaningfully towards Flyboy...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:55 / 20.09.07
But it seemed to me like the show was embarrassed of this first domino, that after the first episode it wanted to forget it, which is what makes it a McGuffin. Once the plot's in motion this instigator, which being a stained glass window is more than ready to carry some weighty symbolism, is forgotten about. Frank's speech is terrifically written but it's still covering something that's treated as a weak link and forgotten in subsequent episodes.

See, this just seems to me like wanting the structure of the season to conform to a certain familiar kind of writing, and then projecting a negative explanation of why it doesn't. Where are you getting this idea you keep repeating that anyone was "embarrassed" by the window stuff? Because it wasn't mentioned again sufficiently when it could have been given some anvil-icious (TM Television Wihout Pity) "weighty symbolism"? The whole point is that once it sets a chain of events in motion, it's pretty much forgotten by the characters!

How crap would it be to have Frank Sobotka shaking his head and going "All this over a stained glass window!" every other episode? Or Valchek saying "You should have let me put my window where I wanted, Frank" right at the end? Answer: very crap, but much more familiar as a storytelling device in TV drama. I think that final scene of Valchek looking at the envelope of polaroids of the stolen van, as it continues to make its way around I.B.S. ports even after Frank's dead and the case is closed, and shaking his head ruefully but almost affectionately, is all the reminder of how this started that we need.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:54 / 20.09.07
Very crap, but much more familiar as a storytelling device in TV drama.

I'm not fond of the familiar storytelling devices of TV drama, or indeed movies. That's why I'm complaining about a McGuffin. You thought it worked fine; I thought it was contrived.
 
 
Spaniel
11:33 / 20.09.07
Just on my little aside re Ziggy being the doom that haunts the show, I completely get that Frank has a very important role to play here, hence my use of the qualifier "primary", but for me, whether it's intended or not, the series of ever larger fuck-ups that is Ziggy served to articulate the ever present anxiety underlying the season's direction. Sure, with Frank you know the shit's going to hit the pan, but Ziggy made me feel it.

As for the stained glass window and Daniels not throwing Valchek much in the way of bones. Daniels realises early on that the case is shit loads bigger than Valchek's petty concerns, has no respect for Valchek, and finds that his unit is supported/pressured from elsewhere (Rawls, the Deputy, ultimately the FBI), and decides to run with the real case. We also need to take into account 2 further factors 1) that Daniels is convinced that Sobotka is going to go down with the ship (so to speak), this is pointed out to Valchek on (I think) more than one occasion, and 2) that Daniel's, at least intially, clearly doesn't think he's doing anything wrong, as illustrated by his bewlidered response to Valchek's complaints. By the time Daniels understands that Valchek is pissed off Valchek has become a small player in the operation, so it's all irrelevant anyway.

Janean, I really think you need to watch this stuff again to criticise it properly. It's dense stuff, complex stuff and you're not doing it justice - probably, I suspect, because you can't remember it clearly, or you missed some of the detail the first time around.
 
 
Janean Patience
11:49 / 20.09.07
Janean, I really think you need to watch this stuff again to criticise it properly.

Now that really does remind me of last year, when I had the audacity to criticise Seven Soldiers...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:55 / 20.09.07
Criticising The Wire is not thought of as sacrilege (I did it myself in the general thread, and much debate was had), but people who have watched episodes of season 2 more than once have different impressions of that season to you, and think that their understanding of the show has benefitted from these repeat viewings. In that light, statements like I'm not prepared to watch the series again to check are bound to rankle. (Personally, I was holding off advising you to watch it again because I always remember that cringe-making moment when somebody (can't remember who) said anyone who didn't think Watchmen was the greatest comic of all time needed to read it as many times as it took to come to this conclusion...)
 
 
Spaniel
12:14 / 20.09.07
Hey, man, I respect your opinions more than most, it's just that I've watched this series recently and I'm not connecting with a lot of your points. Let's leave the sacriligious stuff at the door, shall we? That way lies silliness.
 
 
Spaniel
12:18 / 20.09.07
(Also, I think you'll find that I joined in with the SS criticism)
 
  

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