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Thoth and that

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Pyewacket The Elder

21:23 / 15.09.07

Thoth. Anyone have experience with invocation of Thoth-as-magician? Advice? pointers? Information?

Methodology, result and impact.

How? What? When? Where? ... Why?

Experience only ta, no conjecture from the 'well-read'...

09:42 / 16.09.07

You could begin with your own experience or reasons for your interest. It might make a more substantial first post, and give people something a little more to respond to.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:27 / 16.09.07

Quite. Furthermore, Scrotox, please stop making virtually content-free posts worded in that frankly rather irritating style. You're annoying other posters and in some cases discouraging them from participating.

15:44 / 16.09.07

A more suitable place for your question would have been the "stupid questions" thread. "Soooo, Thoth?" isn't a thread by itself.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:58 / 16.09.07

Werl, in general I'd say that one-deity threads where people can discuss their direct experience of working with that deity are fine. However, they certainly require more substance than our chemically-challenged friend here has offered.

16:06 / 16.09.07

Yes, the Hel thread (for example) was nice.

harmonic series

20:47 / 16.09.07

You're annoying other posters and in some cases discouraging them from participating.

However, they certainly require more substance than our chemically-challenged friend here has offered.

While this isn't the thread in which to have this kind of debate- I can't help but point out that these kinds of personal attacks are making me uncomfortable and are discouraging posting in themselves.

Perhaps you know the poster that started this thread, I don't, not everybody does- and if you have an issue with him/her it could go to an admin or to a personal message.

It is very hard for new posters to separate personal problems among board members from harsh constructive criticism about the topic itself.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

21:21 / 16.09.07

I have no personal problem with Ivor/Pyewacket/Scrotox. He may be perfectly lovely. All I know of him is what he's posted on Barbelith. Since joining, he's demonstrated a recurring pattern of posting material with little content in a hard-to-read style, notably here and in the Headshop. I'm not the only poster to have noticed this and to have got a bit fed up with it. The odd one-liner or scruffy drunkpost is not too much of a problem, but if that's all a person contributes then they swiftly become a net negative on the board.

The standard of discussion on the board is important to me, especially here in the Temple. For all its faults, the Temple remains one of the best, most varied and sophisticated spaces of its kind on the web. If we want to keep it that way, then we've got to encourage people to try and post to a certain standard. I'm sorry, but threads like this don't meet that standard. (Neither do a lot of this poster's contributions elsewhere.)

Aside from the good of the Temple, a topic that starts out like this one is unlikely to attract people who might be able to supply the poster with the information he needs. I don't work with Thoth so I can't help anyhow, but if someone started a thread like this on one of the Gods I do knock around with I'd be unlikely to contribute anything beyond a rebuke.

21:28 / 16.09.07

HS, while I appreciate the sentiment behind what you're saying - you'd like to see more positve posting and less discord, yes? - I don't think necessarily taking things to PM solves anything. Sometimes it's good to have arguments out in the open, it keeps discussions clear and public and to a degree, this can help to set standards for the forum (I'm as likely to praise what I think is a great opening post, as I am to criticise a weak one.) There's long-standing Barbelith discussion about this actually, scattered throughout various policy threads.

Anyway, I didn't like the opening post because it comes over a little as fishing for other people's weird experiences, and I feel the net renders such experiences pretty kind of ... empty.

Anyway /end threadrot and in an attempt to add content:

Here is a nice Invocation of Thoth and there is a brief mention of him in Phil Hine's Rites That Go Wrong

The closest I've come to the mysteries of Thoth is through using the Tarot and reading Crowely's Book of Thoth, quite incredible if you've not looked at it, but seeing as Thoth as embodied therein is Lord of the Mysteries of Writing and Communication, I find your admonition "no conjecture from the 'well-read'..." a little weird. I'd argue that some well placed secondary reading can enhance your understanding of a God and their mysteries no end.

00:56 / 17.09.07

ok...so a few questions that may or may not help this thread...

who exactly is Thoth...I have a vague recollection of an Eqyptian Godform of Magic, is this nonsense or broadly correct?

why might one wish to invoke/evoke him/her/it?

what are your (poster-prime or other posters) experiences/impressions/ knowledge of Thoth?

if you have evoked/invoked him/her/it what results did you garner?

02:09 / 17.09.07

why might one wish to invoke/evoke him/her/it?

Speaking personally, Thricey was first on my list for hir patronage of language and magick. I forget where I first picked the idea up, but invoking Thoth was suggested as a good early step for the budding sorceror.
With all this and hir famed skill as a mediator and diplomat, Thoth is well placed to act as intermediary between below and above.

I believe Pop Magick suggests Ganesh as a similar entry point.

I think it might also be interesting to ask why shouldn't one invoke hir as well, for which I unfortunately have no answer I'm willing to share.

who exactly is Thoth...I have a vague recollection of an Eqyptian Godform of Magic, is this nonsense or broadly correct?

Thoth is the ibis headed egyptian deity, yeah. Ze invented magick according to some, because hir domain is the communication of ideas. (some stuff about Thoth)
One of hir jobs is to speak for Ra, and so to communicate big god-given ideas as words and speech. The reason so many folks go to Thoth is this ability to commumnicate.
Thoth is also part of the god known as Thoth-Hermes, or Hermes Tresmegistus.

Oh, and Crowley wrote a book about tarot(and a deck) named after hir, but you probably knew that.

02:36 / 17.09.07

Is there a reason you're gender-neutralling Thoth? Is there a feminine aspect of which I'm unaware?

02:45 / 17.09.07

I'm using the same system I use for humans. Personal experience hasn't made me sure that Thoth is male and, until it does, I'd rather not categorise the dude.

I'm gender-non-specific until I can be certain.
(If you hadn't told me you were a man I'd be doing the same thing for you)

03:48 / 17.09.07

so ze is a sort of bridge between the uncommunicable communications of Ra and man, yes? A crossroads deity possibly? in the same way that Legba opens communication with others within his pantheon? Or this this wildly grasping...

how did it become conflated with Hermes then? I understand there is a certain amount of interplay between the Egyptian and Greek pantheons but is this conflation based solely on the concept of 'messenger' and 'magic' or there some deeper connection that I'm missing? Or maybe I misunderstand Hermes-Trigestumus entirely...

04:13 / 17.09.07

As I understand it, they combo came about through syncretism between Hellenic and Egyptian schools in ye olde Alexandria. The resulting idea-pool gave birth to what we now know as Hermeticism, which of course is a discipline named for Hermes Trismegistus.

This is all often repeated information and will be prolly pretty easily found on google, so do let me know if I'm boring you with the very obvious.

I don't think Ra is a big part of most Hermeticists practice, so it might be more useful to think of THT as a kind of intermediary with 'The All', 'God', 'The Universe' or whatever, depending on which thing behind the curtain floats your boat.

04:29 / 17.09.07

sorry to go back to it, but...

I have no personal problem with Ivor/Pyewacket/Scrotox.

That's fine, but I have to admit I think HS' complaint about the way you spoke of hir seems fair. 'Chemically challenged' may be a comment based on your reading of the text, but I can't see what it is meant to do but insult.

Speaking as someone who has experienced 'challenges' of the 'chemical' variety, both self administered and naturally occuring, I find such a reference to drug use and/or mental illness to be counter to one of barbelith's stated aims, to engender good discussion.

04:36 / 17.09.07

boring? No...my knowledge of Teh Majiques is rather broad but really quite shallow, so most anybody with any in-depth knowledge is interesting to me!

feel free to elaborate. A starter for ten. What is the primary difference between Hermes-Thoth and Thoth? do they have different 'applications' or could you 'use' them interchangeably?

(pardon the scare-quotes, if I were less inebriated I might be able to phrase things slightly better...c'est la vie)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

06:57 / 17.09.07

"Chemically challenged" was a reference to Scrotox having self-described as drunkposting in another thread. I would have thought it a fairly minor jibe at worst, and one which would be equally applicable to me on occasion, but I'll avoid making similar comments in future if it's going to create unecessary discomfort and strife.

07:53 / 17.09.07

hi this is my first post. At the risk of sounding like a kook heres a couple of observations I've made about Thoth

Sounds of Thoth

Thoth is supposed to be a chatterbox with a high pitched voice. If i remember correctly, there is an animation of the Moses story, where they characterize him like this. I haven't heard Thoth 'talk' yet but i imagine he would have perfect diction and hypnotic tones. What i do know is that the noise of a flock of ibis taking off sounds a lot like a bullroarer (a sacred instrument of Australian Aboriginees).They are easy to make, or you good try using a vibrato guitar pedal for a similar effect.

Why the Ibis Head?

Here Ibis' are something of a pest. They eat garbage and a lot of people find them ugly. I haven't been able to find out why exactly the ancient Egyptians venerated them. Some say they eat snakes and scorpions. From watching them i would say that the reason would be something to do with their habit of sticking their long beaks into the ground. They fly in the sky, walk proudly on the ground, and peer into the underworld. They could be seen to be impregnating the wetlands with their phallic heads.

Thoth Master of Symbols

Thoth invented symbols i.e. speech, writing and math, all of which were considered magic and are now basic skills. Thank him for this.
Ponder on how wonderful it is to have these things.
Ask yourself whats Thoth up too now?
Here is a hint It's right in front of your nose.

Thoth recorded the laws of everything in his book. before that nothing was fixed. If you ask him nicely he might make an adjustment. Just this once.

Book of Thoth? Thoth Tarot? Of course they are his. So are the bible, the telephone directory and the Nike swish.
He owns them.
If you want to use his things show some gratitude.

I hope i haven't broken the rules on my first post. my next post will be better formed, promise.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:39 / 17.09.07

If I remember my Budge, Thoth has the head of an ibis because in the Ogdoad myth structure, he is a lunar deity - the crescent moon resembling the beak of an ibis. Zehuti, the spelling of which is probably morphologically antiquated at this point, but if it's good enough for Teth-Adam - means "ibis".

Mind you, scholarship may have advanced since then.

09:07 / 17.09.07

Thanks for that invisible. The article posted by life critic says the same thing. Whats also Interesting is that they show several pictures of Thoth holding a scribe, in line with his beak. Scribe is almost an anagram of ibis. And he was known as Thoth the Scribe.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:16 / 17.09.07

I have no idea what that means. Thoth is a koptic transliteration of hieroglyphics the pronunciation of which is uncertain, but which comes out as something like Dzwti (Outbreath with flat tongue, short inhalation, breathed "t", consonantal "i"- this may well be utterly wrong, for a number of reasons) - in Greek script, that becomes θωθ - breathed t, long o, breathed t. If the attribution is correct, the root form of ibis would be dzw or thereabouts. I don't know what "scribe" would be, but anagrams would function very differently in a pictographic language, obvs.

09:24 / 17.09.07

Small point, but can we stop with the gender-neutralling 'ze's please. I'm pretty sure that Thoth is not going to have a bit of a hissy fit if we call him a bloke.

'Oh, you should have SAID something Thoth! And for the past 6 thousand or so years! God! We feel so STUPID!'

09:34 / 17.09.07

The wikipedia article has some of Thoth/ḏiḥautī's names and titles down the right hand side.

None of them really do anything to link with the ibis explicitly, but looking around I did find out that the word ibis comes from Greek, originally borrowed from Ancient Egyptian hîb which may provide a beter link.

The ibis is currently not found in Egypt, but it is still about in other parts of Africa. (Thoth-loving Egyptians used to sacrifice them in massive numbers, so maybe they died out or emigrated as a result)

The ibis is also said to be the last to take shelter before a storm, and the first to return after it passes.

09:40 / 17.09.07

can we stop with the gender-neutralling 'ze's please.

Of course you can. If you are asking me to, then no.

09:50 / 17.09.07

Yes, i'm asking you to. Please.

Also not quite sure where you are going with the anagram business slithy tove. The most common term that was used for scribe is tranliterated as SS ('Sesh' or 'Sash'). Pronunciation, as Haus pointed out, is pretty much unknown when it comes to Ancient Egyptian. Verbal structures of syntax in particular. It is an interesting word as it has its own hieroglyph to represent it. Not sure i can find it online but if you give me a few minutes i'll write it down and post it.

10:09 / 17.09.07

The anagram thing is just a silly synchronicity.
As is the fact that Thoth is very similar to the word thought (I didn't make that one up its in one of the posted articles).

This argument about language pleases Thoth. But the question is not "are you an ancient Egypt Scholar" It's "have you evoked Thoth".

10:11 / 17.09.07

Here we are...

The second hieroglyph of the seated man is a common determinative and is not pronounced. Not really that sure what the hieroglyph is meant to represent. A sribes palette and tools i think.

10:14 / 17.09.07

As is the fact that Thoth is very similar to the word thought (I didn't make that one up its in one of the posted articles).

Oh, the joy and wonder of the internet.

10:19 / 17.09.07

This argument about language pleases Thoth. But the question is not "are you an ancient Egypt Scholar" It's "have you evoked Thoth".

Well, i don't know about evoking him but i do enjoy the odd game of Sudoku. Does that count?

10:19 / 17.09.07

sorry ghadis. I didn't mean to take the piss. this is all really great stuff.

I spent a a week or so pondering on the nature of Thoth once and paradoxically i gained the most incite when i got out of the world of man made symbols, and went hiking in the middle of nowhere. At the end of which i came across a field full of ibis which was really cool.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:24 / 17.09.07

As is the fact that Thoth is very similar to the word thought (I didn't make that one up its in one of the posted articles).

I'd like to let this go, but respect for the discipline of Thoth - language - forbids me. Thought is from Old English, Thoth a Greek transliteration of an Egyptian word. Unless this is a cunning ruse from the time of the building of the Stargate, I don't think there is a link.

10:24 / 17.09.07

It was one of the most magical experiences of my life. And no i didn't eat any weird mushrooms while i was out there (but i did photograph some fine Amanita Muscaria specimens).

10:48 / 17.09.07

Thoth was also depicted as a baboon, not just an Ibis.

10:57 / 17.09.07

Wasn't that the Ape of Thoth? Not so much Thoth as Thoth's monkey helper? Or in some accounts, the monkey aspect that distorts our words, and creates confusion and misunderstanding from our attempts to communicate with one another using the gifts of Thoth such as the written word. I can't supply a reference for that, or recall where I came across that reading. I reckon that Baboon would be right at home on barbelith though, and would have his work cut out for him.

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