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Opening up membership possibility

 
  

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jentacular dreams
12:04 / 14.09.07
I'd also rather option 3 (she Shiny Things post above) as well. The airlock has some advantages but I'm not too keen on the whole elitist/gated-community thing either. If neccessary eyestabby drive-by postings can be deleted and a PM sent to the member in question.

If you do decide to go for 1 or 2 though - note there's currently no forum number 3.

As for locking people into the airlock as a naughty step - would it note make sense to lock people into policy if they're being considered for banning? It would certainly curtail collateral trolling until a consensus is reached and acted upon.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:05 / 14.09.07
Swift and decisive banning functionality solves some problems pretty quickly but my understanding - and I may well have missed something here, discussion's been moving pretty quickly - was that there isn't a perfect ban solution and is unlikely to be any time soon.

This whole subject of opening membership has come up because Cal is currently coding an effective banning function whereby administrators can ban outright and moderators can ban on eight votes or less (in its current form). See the other thread in the policy on this. I think its important that anyone voicing opinions on opening membership should be aware of the proposed new functionality that has opened this new debate of throwing open the doors again.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:06 / 14.09.07
As for locking people into the airlock as a naughty step - would it note make sense to lock people into policy if they're being considered for banning?

I think that's a good idea.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
12:18 / 14.09.07
absolutely, Gypsy - thanks. Reading all that now..
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
12:23 / 14.09.07
I think you can get round the time-limited issues by limiting new posters to:

Ten posts a day
For first 100-200 posts

I've been here since last Feb and notched up about 550 posts - with the increased traffic resulting from an open board, newbies would be able to get through that 100-200 barrier in a minimum of ten days. Like I said up-thread, you'd need an incredibly dedicated troll to be really nice for 100-200 posts in order to cause serious damage with unlimited posts - plus it's not a restriction that's overly onerous for people who want to really post widely and well. Ten days of ten a day isn't so bad. Frankly on most days I'll maybe post five or six times anyway.
 
 
Janean Patience
12:24 / 14.09.07
Yeah, it might seem a long time ago to some but reaching 500 posts can be a lot of fuckin' work. Once someone's reached 100 posts I say they should be a full member. If they're making 10 one-word posts a day it's pretty obvious there's trolling ahead.
 
 
Quantum
12:40 / 14.09.07
100 posts is a good threshhold I think. Ten days for the superkeen, about a month of normal posting- is that a fair estimate?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
12:43 / 14.09.07
I reckon so. And it should be doable to distinguish the super-keen from the super-hateful.
 
 
grant
12:52 / 14.09.07
IF
Option 3

THEN
100 posts

sounds good to me.

Unless someone wanted to make it 123 or something less round just for fun.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
13:00 / 14.09.07
Sounds right to me. Ordinarily I'd agree with Haus about rewarding simple loquacity as being a highly undesirable thing, since such might encourage large amounts of fairly pointless verbosity - but with regards to the system we're discussing here it doesn't seem unreasoble.

My reasoning for this as has been already stated more or less, is that while, yes it might encourage a certain amount of 'me too'-ing or other fairly lightweight posting, especially perhaps as one reaches the 80-90 post mark, it also has an obvious built in stick to discourage pointless posting in that if someone is genuinely concerned by only being able to post 10 times a day, then wasting those posts would seem to be distinctly odd behaviour. If someone is acting in this manner, that in itself might be a fairly useful early warning sign.

Also while loquacity would be rewarded, I don't necessarily see it as the sort of reward that disadvatages those who take a long time to achieve it. If someone takes say six months to reach the 100 posts mark it's probably not unreasonable to assume that being unable to post more than 10 times a day is not really a problem for them.
 
 
Ticker
13:11 / 14.09.07
yeah Dancepants really sold me on the idea of number 3 as an aid to the new duties of mods. I want the mods to feel equipped and supported not overworked and unloved.

as I see it with the new self edit option in place the mods' focus will shift more to interaction/content wrangling -social massage and trollwhispering - if you will. Bigger active population of posters rubbing shoulders.

even armed with the new ban hammer I can see how a completely open board would tire them out quickly with drive by jerk clean up. so the limited posts for juniors/newbies would also throttle back on cultural acclimatization woes. Slowing down but still integrating the new folks into the pool. Plus if it is an auto process to move from junior to fully vested it takes away the elitist issue that makes me cringey about voting onto the island.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
13:15 / 14.09.07
Can I just say this thread is a brilliant example of a consensus being hammered out through cogent reasoning on all sides? Barbelith is giving me serious happy at the moment.
 
 
Tom Coates
15:36 / 14.09.07
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, there may be some more complex issues going on here than we've touched on so far.

Things I agree with:
* We should aim to discourage drive-by posters
* People can do a lot of damage with ten posts

Thoughts:
How about if the airlock was the Conversation - ie. if people who joined could only post in the Conversation to start off with? Then they're not completely ostracised and ring-fenced and can get involved in interesting conversations but they can't get into the main area of the site.

I'm still concerned about people wandering off the web and just writing a big fuck-off rant on something they found on Google and then never coming back. And I'm not thinking about one or two of those, I'm thinking about ten of them a day. Not what we're after.

In terms of how to get from newbie to main user status, I like the idea of a couple of targets that they can just reach, but that being the case, the trick would be to minimise the amount of posts they can write when they're being aggravating - or to find ways to delay that process. For example, make it harder to post? Any thoughts on that?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
15:51 / 14.09.07
* People can do a lot of damage with ten posts

Yes, they could, but they'd only do it once - with the new functionality, someone who came in on day one and crapped everywhere could be swiftly banned/confined to Policy for a banning hearing.

How about if the airlock was the Conversation - ie. if people who joined could only post in the Conversation to start off with? Then they're not completely ostracised and ring-fenced and can get involved in interesting conversations but they can't get into the main area of the site.

Well, yeah, but for a lot of new people, they're signing up because they've been pointed at a particular conversation by a friend, or they've found it via Googling. Limiting them to the Conversation might be frustrating.

the trick would be to minimise the amount of posts they can write when they're being aggravating

I think this is the reasoning behind the 100-200 post newbie to full member threshold. If limited to, say, 8 posts a day (because multiples of five seem to be missing not be too much or too little) you'd need to post quality, thoughtful stuff for over two weeks solid to not be called out as a troll (or possible troll if your posts are nearly always three words or less). This is a solid anti-troll measure as well as not being overly limiting to people who jus' wanna' get talkin'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:57 / 14.09.07
Well, the harder it is to post, the more likely we will have the same basic situation that we have now - that people will get discouraged and give up trying to post, and go somewhere where posting is easier.

At the moment, it's very hard to join, and on average I'd guess about one person a day is sufficiently committed to go through the hoops of negotiating the admissions system. I am currently assumign that there are people who attempt to join and are discouraged at that point - so we never got any evidence that they wished to join, and my supposition is purely that. If somebody joins to talk about philosophy and finds that they can only talk about cute animals until some boundary is passed, I imagine that might also encourage drop-off.

So, hmmm. It seems more practical to make reactions to bad behaviour more robust than to limit every new member's ability to use the board on the grounds that they might be trolls or idiots. The way most boards get around this is by having members with the ability immediately to delete content thhat is clearly beyond the pale. If there were a small number of admins with the power to delete threads without distributed moderation, as they can ban suits without distributed moderation, then ten clearly offensive posts a day could be cleaned up quickly.

So, if that's the intention, I'd say option 3, drop the post number to 5 if 10 really feels unsafe, create admins with the power to ban users and delete posts, although actually doing either needs to be flagged in Policy, rather than an airlock system which I think will dissuade people who actually want to and have value to contribute from sticking around. Alternatively, have the airlock be Conversation, Comic Books and Temple - it will be more directly relevant to the desires of many new starters, and will give people more opportunities to contribute good posts or identify themselves as hostile nutbars.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:11 / 14.09.07
Why don't we:

1) ring fence people in conversation for the first x posts or for a time period of two weeks. That will allow us to weed out anyone who is purely there to troll rather than simply being a poster with different viewpoints to the majority of barbelith and it won't be too annoying because it's actually a very short time. It wouldn't be that frustrating, it wouldn't mean anyone was judging them, they would be able to interact, it would simply be a standard function of barbelith.

2) After that period of time they could be limited to x posts a day for the first x posts or for a time period of x weeks, thus allowing us to pick up on anyone who is going to be a different kind of troll/person with views that sit so badly that they're causing problems, at which point a function allowing people to limit the number of posts a new(ish) user can make could come in handy but probably unnecessary if banning powers are at hand.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:20 / 14.09.07
How about if the airlock was the Conversation - ie. if people who joined could only post in the Conversation to start off with? Then they're not completely ostracised and ring-fenced and can get involved in interesting conversations but they can't get into the main area of the site.

D'you know, when I first joined this place I was totally new to TEH INTERNETS and bulletin boards, and for some reason I thought that was actually the case. I have no idea why I thought that, but was only disabused of the notion when someone suggested starting a thread in one of the other fora spinning off from a Convo thread and I was amazed to find I could do it myself...

I'm aware that has more to do with my own stupidity than anything sensible to say about Barbelith, but you just reminded me. And while I still favour option #3, I gotta say that when I THOUGHT I was confined to the Conversation I didn't find it too onerous.
 
 
grant
16:21 / 14.09.07
It might make the Conversation a little more stimulating, actually....
 
 
Princess
21:05 / 14.09.07
More stimulating than ASCII art?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:16 / 14.09.07
I was still thinking about this when I left work today and I think it would be good for people not to start posting in Temple and Comic Books immediately, weirdly I didn't read Haus' post all the way through before I left so it's pretty amusing that we had completely contrary thoughts about the fora. Those are the two fora that people who don't post anywhere else are drawn to and I think it would be sexeh to have them integrate into the general community as well.
 
 
grant
00:26 / 15.09.07
I have questions for Tom!

Is "tomorrow" over?

And if it isn't, is there a chance of Cal integrating "newsearch.php" into the board pages without much hassle?

Just a thought I had.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:36 / 16.09.07
Tomorrow isn't over, actually. I don't think we've worked through this territory quite enough for me to yet trust that we had the right solution. He's said that if I send him the list of things we'd like to do then he'll try and make it a priority. I can't for certain state that this will remain the case, but I think we've got good odds of coming to a conclusion in the next four or five days or so and him building the functionality in the week after that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:46 / 16.09.07
Dude, a week's still a metric shitload better than never. And we probably could do with a bit more thinking. Again, it's much appreciated, both of you.
 
 
grant
02:26 / 17.09.07
a week's still a metric shitload better than never

and an imperial shitload better than a day!
 
 
Spaniel
08:12 / 17.09.07
I think this is relevant to this discussion
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
08:13 / 17.09.07
*wets pants in excitement*

I didn't even need to do much thinkin'! You guys totally reached almost all the details I was concerned about. Can't wait to see how things go.
 
 
Char Aina
09:18 / 17.09.07
Limiting them to the Conversation might be frustrating.

Indeed, but less so than being limited to nothing for a few months, the current model. I think a week or two of limited board activity would be a good step towards full membership, and would do much to make peopkle feel they were getting somewhere.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:35 / 19.09.07
I'm not sure I'm very happy about people being able to ban people out of hand easily on the board, even if they are new members. And I'm still concerned about drive-by stuff. Is there any consensus about how to handle that stuff?
 
 
Tom Coates
13:37 / 19.09.07
I mean in particular, I agree that we're looking to let more people in, but this shouldn't be famine or flood, surely? We don't want to make it too hard for people to join, but at the moment it's very hard, so any step away from that is a good step. Switching straight to dozens (or hundreds) of sign-ups a day could be a very bad thing. To me it seems like you need to be able to get a sense of someone who posts to the board and that doesn't happen if you've got to get a sense simultaneously of dozens of chaps.
 
 
Ticker
14:17 / 19.09.07
I'm not sure I'm very happy about people being able to ban people out of hand easily on the board, even if they are new members.

This may need to go over to the banning thread but I'd like to know if you would be comfortable delegating the ban-in-practice (meaning they just cannot post get new suit) to a specific known selection of folk? I believe you have delegated the direct banphone line to some folks and I'm thinking of a practical board coded freeze those posters could quickly implement.

I bring this up here in the membership thread because the two concepts more/new posters and quick damage control seem to be dependent. If there is no swift antitroll ability than the admission process bears the added duty of filter control and needs to be designed accordingly.

Could you pick from a community endorsed list a few solid level heads to completely freeze someone until such time as you wanted to particpate in the banning discussion?

I mean in particular, I agree that we're looking to let more people in, but this shouldn't be famine or flood, surely? We don't want to make it too hard for people to join, but at the moment it's very hard, so any step away from that is a good step. Switching straight to dozens (or hundreds) of sign-ups a day could be a very bad thing. To me it seems like you need to be able to get a sense of someone who posts to the board and that doesn't happen if you've got to get a sense simultaneously of dozens of chaps

this seems to walk to close to an elitist agenda of new folks having to prove something before gaining the priviledge of the community rather than losing it from clearly shit behavior. sketchy to pre judge someone and then let them in fully and then find out they are problematic once in the full mix. then how do you get them out?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:42 / 19.09.07
I think this is key, along with the meaning of "out of hand". I don't think banning out of hand - in the sense of frivolously or without process - has been discussed. What has been discussed is a small number of people having, in effect, an emergency brake that could be used on a user - either to suspend access to the suit, or the suit's ability to post (or to post anywhere other than the Policy), or to ban it - but the use of which would immediately have to be flagged up in Policy and which would be brought to Tom's attention by an automated process. This would be used in the case of concerted attacks on the board by a determined troll or (more probably) a large number of trollsuits.

If this is not going to happen - and I'm rather surprised that the possibility, once mooted, is now being withdrawn - the we return to the process of either slow banning - we don't know yet how quickly one would assemble 8 yes votes or how often one would encounter 2 no votes - or appealing to Tom for help and hoping that he is around. Personally, I would like to have a third option, at least until we know what the intake is going to be like and how vote-based banning works, which will hopefulyl be a while.

Vote-based banning is at present actually more "out of hand" than that - if one desired and could get seven chums onside, you could ban somebody in a matter of minutes, nobody else would know, and unless Tom actually checked the list of moderator actions and flagged it up nobody would be any the wiser.
 
 
HCE
15:48 / 19.09.07
If we wanted to be elitist why would we let people into Convo, the fastest-moving, most social part of the board, and the easiest to post in? Unlike the other fora, there are no topical restrictions - you can create a thread on fashion, science, entertainment, anything you like. Barring people from picking over the corpse of the Headshop until we've had a chance to see whether they can string five sentences together without devolving into race-hate or other kinds of abuse is elitist exactly how? Can somebody please explain this to me?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:50 / 19.09.07
On admissions - I think it's unlikely that we will get dozens or hundreds of new members a day - at the moment we get about one a day - but a way to deal with that would be to limit the number of new suits doled out per day - although you will then start losing people who cannot be bothered to check back every day and tilt the entry requirements towards Europeans, early risers and obsessives, whereas it is currently mainly tilted towards obsessives.

Personally, I'm all for assuming that people will be good members, and having robust measures in place in case they aren't. If we're not prepared - more precisely, if Tom is not prepared - to allow the robust measures, we have to start treating people like trolls-until-proven-otherwise - as we do now, for just that reason. It is possible, although I doubt it, on a hunch, that vote-based banning and calling for help from Tom in extremis will be robust enough to allow us stop treating every potential joiner as a risk. Failing that, we have to keep the route to admissions straitened and obsessive-oriented - like by having 5 new users created per day, or giving people 3 posts a day, or only letting them post in the Conversation until specific criteria are met.
 
 
Ticker
16:40 / 19.09.07
until we've had a chance to see whether they can string five sentences together without devolving into race-hate or other kinds of abuse is elitist exactly how? Can somebody please explain this to me?

I can try, please see if this makes sense to you. This is based on my understanding of Tom's three intial offerings which may have changed/be changing. I'll try and use neutral language, feel free to call me on it if you feel I am not.

by putting people into an observation tank and then voting them out of it based on their posting behavior we are clearly judging them on their ability to contribute to the board. Not just deciding if they are a troll currently but speculating on if they will become one and if they are showing signs of being like us or compatiable with us.
this is to my thinking very much about presenting a standard of overall interaction as a measure by which to allow admittance to the rest of the pool and full membership.

Please compare this with the model of full board access with limited posts and an automatic full membership after a set number of posts. The only judgment by the commnuity here is did the poster do something trollish and thus deserving of the boot. It's not about a poster's style or social orientation their like-ness to the community (they are after all new) but rather can they adhere to the lowest possible requirement of conduct, not being a troll.

so comparing the structures I see one with an automatic trial period and one with a vote. the measure of restriction 3 posts vs. all of convo to me is not the problematic aspect. It's the whole sitting in judgment of contribution quality rather than just calling zero tolerance on douchery.

As I stated above, my perception of the offerings maybe incorrect or outdated, YMMV.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:53 / 19.09.07
A lot of this does seem rather "we'll check if you're okay first", as opposed to "innocent until proven guilty", yes. I agree with Haus in that having robust measures in place make the second option more practical, though.

I think we're (well, maybe not "we", but certainly "me" in the way I've been thinking about this up until now) maybe tending towards seeing all new members as potential trolls, rather than trying to give them the benefit of the doubt until such time as they've proved we were wrong to do so. I'm not sure that's healthy, but I probably need more time to think this through before I can be more coherent on it. (It's very nearly my bedtime, you see).

Or, more concisely, as Stinklet said, It's the whole sitting in judgment of contribution quality rather than just calling zero tolerance on douchery.

That said, as I said before in one or other of these threads, I actually BELIEVED I was confined to Conversation when I first joined, and I didn't, to my knowledge, get all troll fol-de-rol on the board.
 
  

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