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Underground > Policy & Help >

Opening up membership possibility

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16:01 / 13.09.07

I've been talking to Cal and a couple of options have come up that he says he might be able to implement tomorrow if he's got any time.

Option #1: We create a new forum under the Conversation called Introductions or Newbies or Airlock or whatever. Anyone can sign up, but they'll only be able to post in that forum. All main users of the board would be able to say they like them (or potentially say that they don't much like them) and then people who got a few votes and had been in there (say) three days or a week would be able to come into the main community.

Option #2: As above, but while the users get to vote on who they like, a moderator actually has to take the final step and allow people into the board. They could have a list of users ordered by how much people like them and could do as much or as little checking as they thought was necessary to determine whether that person should have access to the rest of the board. Potentially, if necessary, we could make this a propose a full member and vote among mods / admins if we wanted extra protections.

With both of the above options, the idea would be that if someone was acting particularly badly on the board, we could bounce them back to newbie status rather than just banning them.

Option #3 is that anyone can sign up, but to start off with they're newbie members and can post everywhere but not very much (three times a day at most). We limit their ability to sign out and sign in as a different user and once they've posted a number of times or have been voted up by people they get free run of the place. Again, throw them back to the earlier pattern if they misbehave.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

16:07 / 13.09.07

Can I say, really quickly, that I'm pleased as punch that something is being done about the admissions process? Super exciting!

That said, option three appeals to me the most. One and two sound good, but I'm not sure how well a simple introduction thread could provide us with a clear picture of someone's posting habits, and can't imagine what other kind of threads would go in such a forum. Will think about this in greater detail at a later time, though.

Happy Dave Has Left

16:07 / 13.09.07

I really like Option 2, Tom. I think that a lot of the damage the really nasty trolls do would be almost entirely minimised by this approach, and the 'training wheels' phase of many posters new to the board who haven't quite figured out the standard of discourse and get upset when someone 'doesn't care if they're joking' will also be confined to the 'Airlock'. There's also the advantage that established posters who aren't up for reading a potentially far more ribald part of the board can simply avoid it. Personally, I've got a history of babysitting the 'noobie' parts of boards that I've been involved with in the past, because I really enjoy it, so I'd be in there regular, as would quite a few posters (notably the ones, like me, who have been saying the board would dry up without new contributors). This would be our chance to very directly influence the quality of discourse on the whole board, semi-open up the board again and maintain a pretty solid control that would prevent the worst trolling and misunderstandings from overwhelming the capacity of mods to cope with it all.

Top idea.

16:10 / 13.09.07

I reckon option three sounds like the most effective, for the same reasons tuna ghost just highlighted. Difficult to get a picture of how someone is going to interact with the board from an introductions thread, and also potentially frustrating for a new member who has been drawn to register because they really want to contribute to some specific forum/thread/conversation.

16:17 / 13.09.07

I agree. Option three allows new posters the opportunity to post in a thread they have come across and a re interested in without being able to troll the board.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:19 / 13.09.07

My only issue with three is that three posts a day makes it almost impossible to make any sustained contribution to a thread, which might then discourage people. It also limits how much damage a trollsuit can do as well, of course... A slightly higher number of posts, balanced by the presence of admins who can ban out of hand in extremity (I'm thinking an attack by multiple suits, either owned or coordinated by a serious troll) might be kinder to the majority of new members who are not planning an all-out assault.

Likewise, mods letting people in in option two is very broad, given our wide range of moderators, many of whom were created when there were no expectations on them beyond modifying posts. The more I look at these models, the more I think a small number of admins needs to exist to make them work, disquieting as the idea may be.

Option one is democratic, but seems unbalanced - I'm not sure anyone would ever be shut out, so it would just be a delay, which again might deter people who want to interact but would not deter patient trolls.

16:20 / 13.09.07

How would the limits on #3 work? I think that'd be most effective for doing what you're setting out to do.

However, I do think an open admissions policy PLUS a playground/intro area (#1) could lead to some hilarious (desirable?) unintended consequences - older users trying out newbie skins and creating puppet shows and whatnot. I remember the old Help forum when you could log in as anyone and post.

16:24 / 13.09.07

Yes. #3, please. The first two feel a bit... superiority complex. I also don't think segregation like that would have any benefits - anybody who's set out on a mission to be a problem here wouldn't have much difficulty covering that during the initial period of newbness. I appreciate that it'd minimise the damage caused by spammers, though, and may put off the less dedicated trolls.

#1 and #2 prod at my nolikey buttons.

16:24 / 13.09.07

Although - now that I think of it, one of the big annoyances from the last open go was the drive-by poster, someone who just, like, saw a thread on Iraq and posted one "Oh, you stupid freedom-hatin' hippies" kinda thing and vanished into the ether. I don't think #3 would do anything to deter that.

Make mine Option #2.

16:25 / 13.09.07

Oh. Cross-post with grant, and his argument for #1 and #2 has now stuck a stubby finger on my quitelikey button.

16:26 / 13.09.07

I'd go for option three as well. The voting aspect of options one and two sounds uncomfortably to close to an audition for a reality TV show.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:28 / 13.09.07

Number 2 with letting-in done by an admin or a quorum of moderators, or Number 3 with a smoother emergency banning process and ten posts a day, I suggest. Or (2) as is after a pruning of moderators, but that might lead to problems.

16:28 / 13.09.07

I can see Option #2 being more productive, maybe, if the Intro area was explicitly set up to echo/provide gloss/link to things going on in the main board. That seems to be an ongoing theme in the not-a-member-yet things I've seen. "Oh, tell whoever in that thread that this and this and this!"

16:35 / 13.09.07

Could we not have the intro forum without the need for voting? A compromise between the two main proposals. Just have new members transfer across to the wider board automatically after either a period of time or a set number of posts?

16:40 / 13.09.07

I really, really don't like option no.3. I think three posts is more than enough to fuck things up.

I vote for no.2.

16:45 / 13.09.07

Number 3 with a smoother emergency banning process and ten posts a day

Like option 3 with Haus' suggestion or just plain option 3

16:45 / 13.09.07

Just have new members transfer across to the wider board automatically after either a period of time or a set number of posts?

I think I'd only want that with ye newe Smoother Banning Process.

16:47 / 13.09.07

#3, but pref. 5-10 posts daily.

Happy Dave Has Left

16:47 / 13.09.07

So, I'm thinking, visually, if I went into NoobieZone, I'd see a load of threads, many with titles like 'Hello!' and 'Newbie Comics' or 'Newbie Majick' or 'Newbie Headshop'. I'd go into, say, the 'Newbie Books' thread (perhaps the NoobieZone could be set up with a limited number of threads that mirrored the boards fora?) and there'd be a load of posts from newbies, with their chosen suit names. Beside each suit would be a little tab (much like the 'Edit Post' tab you see beside your own posts) saying 'I like this ficsuit!'. If you like a newbie's contribution, you click it. And maybe another tab under it that says 'Hmm, maybe not'.

Mods go through once a week, and okay anyone who's got more than five OK's. Anyone who's been in the playpen for a week and has received a few 'Maybe Nots' gets an autogenerated email saying 'Hey, we'd really like you to be a part of your Barbelith, but your contributions so far in NoobieZone suggest that you might not dig it round here. If you're still interested, stick around and keep posting, otherwise, nice knowin ya'!

Rinse, lather, repeat. Possibly with a probationary period similar to #3 with posts limited to ten a day as a safeguard against the really patient trolls.

17:04 / 13.09.07

having just come dancing out of the new ban functionality thread I have to ask, if the sign up process has human only/ email confirmation, and the ban has black listing, why not a wide open sign up? With ban functionality why limit new users' abilities to post?

Also thank you so much for doing this Tom & Cal!

17:09 / 13.09.07

What just happened - Edit User tabs??

Jumping Jehosaphat!

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:11 / 13.09.07

I don't hate any of them, really, though #3 I think I like the most. I'd say maybe 5 or 10 posts, though.

Princess- someone could easily be a right wanker with their three (or five, or ten) posts, but I doubt much actual damage could be done. I don't think this would open us up to any more trolling than any other board that manages to work; in fact less, given that most boards don't have that.

There's no 100% way of never getting any trolls ever. There just isn't. It may be Barbelith, but it's also THE INTERNETS. Which are, sadly, where the trolls live. Even the way things are, I could turn trollsome, or Haus could, or you could. Fuck it, even Tom could if he felt like it, though I'm not sure if that would count. It's never going to be 100% troll-free. We should stop looking at that as a goal and looking at limiting the damage the inevitable trolls could cause, which I think all these options do. My personal favourite is #3.

17:15 / 13.09.07

Uhm so everyone in this thread knows about the new SHINY banning options now right?
(I came here first and didn't know so that's why I'm asking)

Banhammer is a go, so why have any posting limits if a poster is problematic they get booted? why the need for junior status?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:21 / 13.09.07

If banning is to require eight votes, it's still going to be a little unwieldy at first, I'm guessing is the reasoning. I agree with you, though, in that I'd love open access. Perhaps we should test the water first, though, now we can.

Happy Dave Has Left

17:28 / 13.09.07

I guess I saw it primarily as a combination sin bin and newbie island - it takes possible serious damage by determined trolls and puts it in a place where it can be easily contained and (this is the important bit) ignored by people who don't want to get involved. So, less drive by single posts (freedom hating hippies!11!! etc), an airlock where trolls can rage all they want but would have to fake considerable erudition and good humour to actually get in, and no-one coming in, shitting over a dozen threads and then telling us we're fascists for telling them to stop it.

Like Stoatie says, stopping all trolls is impossible, but the airlock will stop a whole lot, and the (now usable) banhammer is there as backup. Heck, you could even use the airlock as a naughty step (which is something I've seen Olmos talking about in his board coding posts).

17:38 / 13.09.07

With the prevelance of open boards, truly open in the sense you get an auto email confirmation link and you're in, I'm worried the junior status kinda smacks of elitism and as raised upthread the contributions are so limited as to be kind of useless determining if someone's contribution value.

I understand the idea is to limit the off the cuff stupidity some boards get but we may also lose those who want to respond to a topic and engage becoming frustrated with an inability to really do so. I mean it will frustrate me if a very intersting new poster can't respond to my counter posts because of a limit let alone how that must feel on the receiving end.

I think with the mods ability to delete truly stupid yo!hippi3! posts quickly we should be ok. more active members, more active mods.

17:47 / 13.09.07

Actually, Stinklet just convinced me.
If mods can delete rubbish posts and users, then why don't we just let the people in?

17:50 / 13.09.07

I mean it will frustrate me if a very intersting new poster can't respond to my counter posts because of a limit let alone how that must feel on the receiving end.

I don't really see that as a problem. It's no different than if that poster had logged off after their third reply to you and didn't come back to the thread until the next day.

If anything, a new member who wanted to reply to a thread but couldn't because they'd reached their post limit for the day may benefit from the lockout, as it'd force them into having to spend more time thinking about their response.

Lots of boards differentiate between new members and 'full' members.

17:55 / 13.09.07

If mods can delete rubbish posts and users, then why don't we just let the people in?

Because it's not that easy.

We're still talking about a process requiring agreement from a number of moderators. That, plus you're ignoring the damage that one persistant troll, with plenty of time on hir hands, can do, and how infuriating it can be to have to keep clearing that up while waiting for other mods to appear on the scene.

17:58 / 13.09.07

I vote number 3 with a smoother emergency banning process and ten posts a day.

Happy Dave Has Left

18:01 / 13.09.07

There's also the 'security through obscurity' argument. A lot of boards have open registration because they don't attract too many trolls, or they're so low-traffic/low standards that nobody cares. Barbelith, for many reasons, trips the 'fucking hippies/elitist snobs/PC wankers' switch in a lot of fairly unpleasant people's heads, and as such, completely open registration would, I think, lead to the kind of severe and nasty trolling Randy's talking about.

What I'm advocating is a cordon sanitaire if you like, that keeps the nasty, damaging stuff out of the main board. Banning has traditionally been a drawn out and complex process here, but I think that the lessons learned from those processes have actually been invaluable. Wielding the shiny new banhammer to deal with every troll incursion or stupid post might lose us the advantages we've gained, when we could create this playpen/welcome chamber/naughty step/cordon sanitaire.

18:02 / 13.09.07

that's true, Dancepants, but the experiencing of logging off is different than hitting a posting limit. I can see it having a chilling effect which may be a good thing for trolls and the hot blooded but also on others. I think it's a choice about community interaction. I'm on the fence about it really. I can see both advantages and disadvantages of it.

For me it's about the goal in changing registration. There's a built in delay now in getting any posting ability and that seems to have a massive chilling effect on total registrations. If what we want is a big influx than wide open would seem to make sense, but if we want small manageable then the junior status might be the way to go. How selective do we want to be, not just in troll control but total regisration influx?

Can you describe how the different membership levels serve those boards? How long of a duration is the junior status held for? is the status mod changed, community voted, or automatic based on time/number of posts?

18:13 / 13.09.07

sorry for the double post weird x-post delay happening for me...

We're still talking about a process requiring agreement from a number of moderators. That, plus you're ignoring the damage that one persistant troll, with plenty of time on hir hands, can do, and how infuriating it can be to have to keep clearing that up while waiting for other mods to appear on the scene.

given the choice between alienating a percentage of new people and making things easier for our mods... I'd vote Option 3 for mod sanity. (I heart our mods)
Still has open reg even with a junior status so folks can post across the board. the airlock thing seems problematic for me.

18:43 / 13.09.07

I can see it having a chilling effect which may be a good thing for trolls and the hot blooded but also on others.

It needs to be made explicit and explained to new members as soon as they sign up, preferably with some kind of message appearing at a point within the registration process - "As a new member to the board, you will initially be limited to submitting X posts within a twenty-four hour period. After Y weeks/months/posts, this restriction will be eased/lifted." Maybe "Barbelith has previously attracted peculiarly dedicated trolls due to whatever reason. As a result..." and so on.

Can you describe how the different membership levels serve those boards?

Generally, it's just a status thing, not a posting limitation - at least, if it is a posting restriction, it's not one that I've ever knocked up against. New Members and Full Members get flagged as such under their usernames, New Members don't get access to elements of functionality that Full Members do (we're talking about things that Barbelith doesn't have - avatars, taglines and other profile options).

Not the same kind of limitation, but limitations all the same. I'd imagine that most people who've experience of boards other than Barbelith wouldn't be massively surprised or shocked to find themselves given limited access to the place initially. Just explain it.

Phex: Dorset Doom

18:49 / 13.09.07

I'm for option 3 but I'd like the posts-per-day limit to be ten to allow for as much engagement with the board as possible without allowing too many trollish posts. Also, Happy Quadrangle's 'Noobiezone' (or rather 'Airlock') section with an intro thread and a general thread for all of the different fora except for Convo, Policy and Gathering would prevent a single Airlock thread from being filled up with 'Hi my name iz Slipknotfan4886 i am a kaoz madjickan etc.' and lets the new meat play in as close to a natural environment as possible. After that there would have to be some kind of voting system for the mods, then they become Junior members, able to post in threads but not start new ones. After three months if we haven't banned them they become full members with full mini-bar privileges and we tell them the secret meaning of The Invisibles.

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